The UK will leave the EU

[BruceVC]

Looks like not even Muslims want Muslims. :>

Yes this is huge issue for me  and its a  blatant inconsistency around  the global responsibity countries need to take for there own citizens or in this casre Muslim countries taking responsibity for fellow Muslims 

 

Merkel meant well with the initial offer to take in refugees and even though I now think it was  a mistake because of how the initial offer was abused Gernany was prepared to help about 1.3 million Syrians...even that was a hugely generous offer

 

But what happened....suddenly it became a free for all and people from countries like Sudan, Iraq and Afghanistan assumed they could come to the EU. This was never the initial agreement and this has put unnecessary  social and political pressure on the EU and some of its structures and member countries 

 

But this doesnt change the fact I am a huge supporter of Merkel and Germany and there role in the EU. Mistakes will happen but this shouldnt undermine or negate the greater good of the EU 

[Raithe]

To be fair, Merkel was also looking at getting a huge infusion into the workforce of people the right age. Right now something like half the population in Germany are hitting the retirement point. Unfortunately, I don't think her plan is turning out quite how she expected it.

[BruceVC]

To be fair, Merkel was also looking at getting a huge infusion into the workforce of people the right age. Right now something like half the population in Germany are hitting the retirement point. Unfortunately, I don't think her plan is turning out quite how she expected it.

I have heard this before but is it true? Do you have  a credible link because I am not sure that was the main reason

[Nonek]

Personally I think we ought to strategically place Brian Blessed on the Dover coast to welcome our European brethren.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1zjeYhJs7o

 

Edit: The fact that Mr Blessed's home town of Doncaster is also home to a leading school for the Deaf is not coincidental, Mr Juncker you have been warned, the eardrums of Europe are in your hands!

Edited July 29, 2016 by Nonek

[Agiel]

Bruce, the original idea of the EU was a shared market and freedom of borders. So, basically trade and travel.

Not having a European federalised attempt at forming the USA.

While the merits of such a project are debatable, let it not be said that was perceived as such a wholly terrible prospect from the onset:

 

 

 

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

 

-Winston Churchill

Edited July 29, 2016 by Agiel

[Raithe]

Ah Winston Churchill. A man who liked to use such ploys as putting a needle in the end of his cigars to distract political opponents. They'd end up focused on the length of the ash that had not fallen from said cigar as he smoked it and stop listening to what he said so they wouldn't come up with as many refusals or points to argue.

[213374U]

“The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's been said of Churchill that he had 100 ideas a day, 4 of which were good. But hey, that's still 4 good ideas a day!

[BruceVC]

It's been said of Churchill that he had 100 ideas a day, 4 of which were good. But hey, that's still 4 good ideas a day!

Thats a bit unfair

 

Churchill was instrumental as one of the reasons the UK was able to persevere against the Nazis...lets give him the credit he deserves 

[HoonDing]

Churchill was a horrible man, read up on what he did to Hussein Onyango Obama.

[Varana]

The funny thing about that Churchill speech is that the UK is clearly meant to watch from the sidelines:

In all this urgent work, France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America and I trust

Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.

Bearing in mind that that was a time when Britain still had some sort of Empire, even if he's already having delusions of grandeur there. :D

 

But anyway: How far on the way to a United States the European project should go, has been a contested question from the start. And many of the inconsistencies and flaws of the current system stem from that tension: That those who drove for an ever closer union and those who wanted to limit the EU to an economic union, had to compromise somewhere. Both positions have been prominent (with everything in between), and up to now, no one has found any reasonable way of dealing with that conflict.

 

When it comes to Muslim-majority states accepting refugees, we shouldn't overlook the tremendous load that states like Jordan, Lebanon, and even Turkey are bearing (for Syria and, to a lesser extent, Iraq), or that millions of Afghan refugees live in Iran, and so on. Ranting about the Gulf monarchies is all fine*, but complaining that Muslim countries don't do anything, is, in this general sense, simply wrong. Compared to the consequences of the Syrian crisis for already poor and conflict-ridden states like Syria's neighbours, the influx of refugees into Europe, one of the most absurdly rich and stable parts of the planet (and that includes, let's say, Bulgaria), is kind of ridiculous.

 

That refugees were brought to Germany as workers, or something like that, has been mentioned now and then. I seriously doubt that it was ever a major reason for presenting a more welcoming image. I wouldn't be surprised if the origins of that thought already came from opponents of the refugee policy, mostly from the left-wing or anti-capitalist side of the spectrum. Germany had done something like that quite extensively in the past (inviting workers from Southern Europe and later Turkey) but that was when jobs, even in manufacturing, required a lot less education and language skills, and it's broad consensus that there have been substantial mistakes in dealing with those invited. After all, it's quite clear that integrating refugees into the workforce will take its time, is a much more difficult way of getting people you want (in contrast to, e.g., actual immigration), and last but not least, Germany already has open borders with almost all of Europe, so if conditions are right, people will and can come. And you can blame Merkel of many things, but stupidity is rarely among them.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Varana

[BruceVC]

Churchill was a horrible man, read up on what he did to Hussein Onyango Obama.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=33773416

 

I found this link but it doesnt reveal anything that indicts Churchill?

 

What am I missing?

[Varana]

He was imprisoned and tortured for some time in 1949/1950. Nothing personal with Churchill (who wasn't even P.M. in these particular years), "just" British colonial regime.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Varana

[Volourn]

"the influx of refugees into Europe, one of the most absurdly rich and stable parts of the planet (and that includes, let's say, Bulgaria), is kind of ridiculous"

 

of course one could make the 'bigoted' assessment that Europe is 'rich and stable' BECAUSE they aren't controlled by extremist Islamists like elsewhere so accept all these refugees en masse who, quite clearly, still love their book - could, in the long run, destroy that stability.
 

[BruceVC]

"the influx of refugees into Europe, one of the most absurdly rich and stable parts of the planet (and that includes, let's say, Bulgaria), is kind of ridiculous"

 

of course one could make the 'bigoted' assessment that Europe is 'rich and stable' BECAUSE they aren't controlled by extremist Islamists like elsewhere so accept all these refugees en masse who, quite clearly, still love their book - could, in the long run, destroy that stability.

 

But that would be  a silly thing to say because of the history of the EU....its not a Muslim region and never will become one so to  even suggest it will become one seems like ...fear mongering ?

[Volourn]

Numbers and math can be your friend if you let it.

[BruceVC]

Numbers and math can be your friend if you let it.

Not sure how either of those points is honestly relevant to point " the EU wont become an Islamic nation  " 

[Varana]

of course one could make the 'bigoted' assessment that Europe is 'rich and stable' BECAUSE they aren't controlled by extremist Islamists like elsewhere so accept all these refugees en masse who, quite clearly, still love their book - could, in the long run, destroy that stability.

One can make the assessment that Europe is rich and stable because they aren't controlled by extremists, be it of the Islamist, nationalist, Christian, communist or any other variety.

 

Also, yes, numbers can be your friend. The EU has more than 500 million people, in 2015 there were 1 - 1.5 million migrants. Not all of them were Muslim, only a small minority of Muslims are "extremist Islamists". You can work out the percentages and stuff for yourself.

[Mamoulian War]

Looks like not even Muslims want Muslims. :>

There are 2 million refugees in Lebanon alone... I think it is still more than in whole EU...

[BruceVC]

 

Looks like not even Muslims want Muslims. :>

There are 2 million refugees in Lebanon alone... I think it is still more than in whole EU...

 

Putting Syrian refugees in these refugee camps in places like Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey  that they live under in appalling conditions should not be considered proper integration or even taking responsibility of fellow Muslims

 

The way the EU integrates the refugees is considered taking responsibility, the EU makes them citizens, provides social grants, housing etc. The main difference is the EU tries to be truly inclusive and incurs a real cost  for each refugee   

[Varana]

The EU doesn't grant them citizenship.

 

But the point about the refugee camps is: Generally speaking, these countries are basically overwhelmed. The Lebanon is notoriously unstable, Jordan is almost completely desert, both countries suffer from weak economies, huge unemployment, and low income already, even without the Syrians. The largest part of the appalling conditions are not due to unwillingness but basically the inability to cope with this task.

So I think it's quite unfair to blame these particular countries for what's going on. At least they don't shoot at refugees (looking at you, Turkey...)

[BruceVC]

The EU doesn't grant them citizenship.

 

But the point about the refugee camps is: Generally speaking, these countries are basically overwhelmed. The Lebanon is notoriously unstable, Jordan is almost completely desert, both countries suffer from weak economies, huge unemployment, and low income already, even without the Syrians. The largest part of the appalling conditions are not due to unwillingness but basically the inability to cope with this task.

So I think it's quite unfair to blame these particular countries for what's going on. At least they don't shoot at refugees (looking at you, Turkey...)

But the EU provides a path to citizenship ?

 

https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-Syrian-refugee-gain-EU-citizenship

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

Looks like not even Muslims want Muslims. :>

 

There are 2 million refugees in Lebanon alone... I think it is still more than in whole EU...

Putting Syrian refugees in these refugee camps in places like Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey that they live under in appalling conditions should not be considered proper integration or even taking responsibility of fellow Muslims

 

The way the EU integrates the refugees is considered taking responsibility, the EU makes them citizens, provides social grants, housing etc. The main difference is the EU tries to be truly inclusive and incurs a real cost for each refugee

Maybe you should give advice to government of Lebanon, how to properly integrate 2 millions of refugees into country with area about 10,000 square kms and 4 and half million inhabitants... Edited August 1, 2016 by Mamoulian War

[Nonek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHihAPr2Rc

[Meshugger]

 

of course one could make the 'bigoted' assessment that Europe is 'rich and stable' BECAUSE they aren't controlled by extremist Islamists like elsewhere so accept all these refugees en masse who, quite clearly, still love their book - could, in the long run, destroy that stability.

One can make the assessment that Europe is rich and stable because they aren't controlled by extremists, be it of the Islamist, nationalist, Christian, communist or any other variety.

 

Also, yes, numbers can be your friend. The EU has more than 500 million people, in 2015 there were 1 - 1.5 million migrants. Not all of them were Muslim, only a small minority of Muslims are "extremist Islamists". You can work out the percentages and stuff for yourself.

 

 

1-1.5 million to Germany alone, where over 70% of them were men in the age of 17-35. In a country where the amount of people in the same demographic age is about 4 million. 

 

I see a great conflict brewing.