Should the UK leave the EU?

[Elerond]

It's time to put Welsh independence on agenda – Leanne Wood

Leanne Wood said Brexit was an opportunity to break free from the UK – and though Wales voted overwhelmingly to leave the EU she argued that its citizens would think again if the country became independent.

Plaid has long advocated independence for Wales but seen it as a long-term aspiration rather than a short-term goal. Brexit has altered that.

Wood said: “Last Thursday’s vote has changed everything. In all likelihood, with Scotland voting to remain, the UK will cease to exist in the near future. Northern Ireland will be considering its future too.

“Even though this situation was not of our making, Plaid Cymru believes that redesigning the current UK is the only option. A new union of independent nations working together for the common good.

“It is my belief that this independent Wales in a completely different context to last week’s referendum would want to be a part of the European Union.

“This is a huge challenge that we face. All of us, whether we voted in or out should be prepared to be bold and confident in being able to forge a new, strong, inclusive, outward-looking future for our nation.”

 

 

It seem that all the nationalist parties are more than willing to take this opportunity offer their visions of UK's future to drive in their own agenda.  

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Late to the party but better late than never. I didn't see it coming. I thought that even push come to shove, they'd rig it to stay in since it was destined to be close. 

 

American interests in Europe took a stab in the gut with this. No longer will the UK be able to influence European foreign policy (such as it was) to the same extent.

 

As for the EU, the unthinkable has become thinkable. Grexit would have been a nuisance, the eventual economic collapse of Spain and Italy an even bigger one but this is a critical hit. 

 

If the present course of the economy and refugee crisis continues, the France is the next significant weak link. The current government will never organize a referendum but an FN one might and Le Pen's chances were never as good as they are now. That is admittedly, the most extreme scenario - but if it came to pass and succeed the EU would be gone overnight.

 

Even if it doesn't happen, there is nothing but the problems ahead. A clever politician would use this opportunity to patch up things with Russia, now that the key anti-Russian player is as good as gone (Erdogan certainly is, for some reason). I wouldn't hold my breath though.

 

Cameron possibly the biggest political loser in 21st century history so far. From "a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel" to a zero and loser overnight.  

I don't expect them to flip it somehow. The political fallout is so bad already I can't see a reversal happening. 

Why would you possibly say Cameron is a loser? You dont understand the reality

 

Cameron promised the UK he would have this referendum, he kept his word and he understandably stepped down when Brexit won, he isn't required to now navigate the UK exit

 

He is a man of his word and he has integrity, do you see that as a weakness?

 

 

He's a loser because he thought it would be an easy win for his side and he's a loser because he allowed intra-party politics to dictate national policy.

[Nonek]

Northern Ireland will most likely eject at some point, however I believe that the Scots and Welsh may well be seeking advantage as they have been doing for some time now. It will certainly be an interesting time for Westminster and require some deft handling that i'm personally unsure we have MPs capable of.

 

Edit: In an ideal scenario this might lead to a reordering of the Union, and some very necessary changes being enacted, but usually politicians react rather than act, so I doubt it.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Nonek

[Valsuelm]

David Burge ‏@iowahawkblog Jun 25

Let's all pray that Britain doesn't descend into Norwegian or Swiss-style anarchy

 

 

LOL

[Valsuelm]

 

Speaking about those legal loopholes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-loophole-eu-referendum-mps-law-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html

And there we have it... smh.

 

 

All you have there is a bit of rubbish to sell some papers that won't go anywhere, or what historians (if there are any) will one day list as a major factor leading up to a civil (if not wider) war.

 

British Parliament, the EU aristocrats, the globalist/banker elite ignore the will of still currently peacefully voting British majority at their very great peril.

 

That said, I'm not sure some very evil MFers aren't actually angling for war at some point out of all of this. Either way the hubris at play currently measures off the charts.

[Nordicus]

Why would you possibly say Cameron is a loser? You dont understand the reality

 

Cameron promised the UK he would have this referendum, he kept his word and he understandably stepped down when Brexit won, he isn't required to now navigate the UK exit

 

He is a man of his word and he has integrity, do you see that as a weakness?

He's a loser because he thought it would be an easy win for his side and he's a loser because he allowed intra-party politics to dictate national policy.

Indeed, and the referendum promise was no show of "integrity" but a cheap campaign trick to get more votes for Conservatives back in 2013.

 

But okay, let's say he genuinely wanted the people to have a say... why did he as the Prime Minister not even start making a plan in case Leave voters won? No matter who leads the Leave campaign, it is him who is supposed to fly out to Brussels for the meetings and represent his country. He either expected easy victory, or did not want to give the Leave campaign even ounce of legitimacy.

 

David Cameron stepping down is no show of character, but rather he's handing away the political shovel for digging your own grave to Boris Johnson. Every Prime Minister from here on will have to play Hot Potato about invoking Article 50 and taking on the burden of leading UK out of EU, and taking the blame for every setback along the way, whether it's their fault or something they do not have any power over. And the other politicians have realized this. Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are nowhere to be seen and Jeremy Corbyn is acting as if the referendum never happened

 

During Prime Minister's Questions stream earlier today, he dodged every other hard question with either "that is for the next government to decide", or such utter waffle that you might start wondering whether Article 50 will be ever invoked. He may come back from Brussels with UK still as much in EU as it were one week ago, but with some beginnings of a plan for what to do when Article 50 is invoked by... someone other than him. What a guy that Dodgey Dave.

 

But then agaaaaaaaain~ Merkel just notified that there won't even be informal Brexit talks until UK officially applies to leave.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Nordicus

[Zoraptor]

The 'funny' thing is that the remain press is complaining vociferously about the leave side having no plan for if they won- well, what's the point of them having a plan when they have zero chance to actually implement it themselves. There's simply no point asking Farage (who's a complete dong, but for this that is irrelevant) what his plan is when he cannot implement it anyway and will have very little power to get his way, and very little point asking even Gove/ Johnson when Cameron is going to be PM for the next four months. The people who should be preparing plans are the beaurocrats (albeit acting under instructions of the government) and about the only one of them who seemed to have any sort of plan is a Canadian who hasn't even been in the job very long. It's all very well to think that Leave winning is unthinkable, but there's plenty of such scenarios that get plans; there will be one for Russia nuking the UK etc which are equally unthinkable.

 

Something something Hodgson doesn't take 4 months to resign something something Brexit 2.0, June 27 this is our independence day something something hopefully England doesn't turn into an Iceland like anarchy something something England leaves EUro 2016 in shock result, have to wait at airport for standby tickets as no one has planned for that eventuality etc etc.

[Malcador]

Well, not necessarily pointless to have a plan when you can't implement it yourself. Consultancy is a thing, after all. But also said plan can be used and does give the image of being prepared and serious about the changes.

[HoonDing]

[Hiro Protagonist]

Young Brits are angry about older people deciding their future, but most didn’t vote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/27/young-brits-are-angry-about-older-people-deciding-their-future-but-most-didnt-vote/

 

[Zoraptor]

Well, not necessarily pointless to have a plan when you can't implement it yourself. Consultancy is a thing, after all. But also said plan can be used and does give the image of being prepared and serious about the changes.

 

Theoretically at least, that is exactly what you have the civil service (especially, since they're supposed to be non party political) and parliamentary staff for though- preparing contingencies and plans.

 

It's not really expected that individuals come up with plans themselves as they have no ability to cost or vet ideas (let alone implement them) and consultancy is expensive and time consuming enough that you could not expect even decently wealthy people to finance it for something of Brexit's scope from their own pocket. They're also MPs, not experts, themselves; it would probably be worse to have them throwing ludicrous contradictory ideas around rather than staying quiet. Only one party supported brexit and it was the least important one, so that also means minimal parliamentary resources were available. 

 

Really, it has to be Cameron's and HM's Government as an apparatus whose failure here is most egregious- Carney managed to have a plan for the BoE, the other civil servants should have had theirs too but seem not to have. At present it just looks like they've either deliberately or incompetently failed to plan anything coherent, and despite that being their actual job.

[Gorth]

Young Brits are angry about older people deciding their future, but most didn’t vote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/27/young-brits-are-angry-about-older-people-deciding-their-future-but-most-didnt-vote/

 

What, you mean that they actually had to get and do something???

 

Sorry, no sympathy from this old grognard

[Nordicus]

So no formal deal negotiations have even started and Farage is already openly insulting MEPs and making threats

 

[Meshugger]

So no formal deal negotiations have even started and Farage is already openly insulting MEPs and making threats

 

 

Link please.

[Nordicus]

Here you go

[Malcador]

Juncker asking him why he is there was good. Shame Farage survived that helicopter crash.

[Chilloutman]

Juncker asking him why he is there was good. Shame Farage survived that helicopter crash.

 

man, chillout, wishing someone dead is a little bit too much

[Raithe]

Farage tends to inspire those feelings in a lot of people.

 

But, the Labour party seems to be going into a meltdown, the Tories are doing all sorts of fun splits as folks get in line to try for leadership, and the LibDems are waving their "we'll run on a platform of absolutely not leaving the EU if we get elected regardless of the referendum" signs.

 

We seem to be getting all the economic panic, but what bugs me is how much this is perception based. We're in an economic panic because people were worried about uncertainty, so they act as if there is a panic, which causes the panic.  If everyone had just sat down and waited a few weeks to see how it would shake up first....

[Meshugger]

Here you go

 

How intolerant of the EU parliament to not accept different debate cultures, such as the british. That was so much tamer compared to day-to-day debates at Westminster, and most certainly compared to Thatcher vs. the opposition in the 80's. I am disappointed

 

Juncker asking him why he is there was good. Shame Farage survived that helicopter crash.

 

Wishing for death upon someone because he has a bad attitude? You gotta have one hell of a kill list stacked under your bed.

[Malcador]

man, chillout, wishing someone dead is a little bit too much

Nah. It is somewhat amusing to do. Or to visualize them being tortured in a heinous manner. But he has always come across as a complete ****.

 

Don't worry Meshugger, still have room for you on the list.

 

[Elerond]

 

Here you go

 

How intolerant of the EU parliament to not accept different debate cultures, such as the british. That was so much tamer compared to day-to-day debates at Westminster, and most certainly compared to Thatcher vs. the opposition in the 80's. I am disappointed

 

Farage has been in EU parliament past 17 years, that is how things go there always. He insults people and then they insult him back (sometimes other way around). It has been very constructive.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Elerond

[Gorth]

They do have some funny traditions in the UK Parliament...

 

The Commons Chamber

"It also remains the case that in the United Kingdom MPs can only transfer their allegiance from government to opposition, or vice versa, by crossing the floor in plain view. During debates, members speaking on opposing sides are also not meant to step over the red lines on the carpet, which are said to equal two sword lengths."

 

(Apparently they used to carry swords for debating in the past)

[Hassat Hunter]

Even if it doesn't happen, there is nothing but the problems ahead. A clever politician would use this opportunity to patch up things with Russia, now that the key anti-Russian player is as good as gone (Erdogan certainly is, for some reason). I wouldn't hold my breath though.

 

Lol, clever politician? In the EU? Yeah, that ain't gonna happen. Especially since we still, for unknown reason, put so much effort in our Ukranian coup-de-tat for that oh so critical trading agreement. Also, for some reason I don't get.

 

 

 

It seem that all the nationalist parties are more than willing to take this opportunity offer their visions of UK's future to drive in their own agenda.

 

Weren't nationalist racist old people the "cause" of this most horrid Brexit? But I guess such reasonings are only valid when it actually furthers some agenda, and when not are discarded once more. That integrity.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Don't see why all the Farage hate. As politicians go, he's pretty straightforward. You can't really blame him for having presented his position more clearly than the opposition and, after almost two decades of holding the line, swayed the masses to his side.

Its actually a significant success in  a voting system that is designed to strangle smaller parties (and has robbed the UKIP of a lot of places in parliament).

 

Farage is also not to blame for EU's many structural problems and overall lack of democracy in the whole project from its inception. They had ample opportunity to fix things over the years. His criticism of the Brussels bureaucracy is usually correct and has won him many points over the years.

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Elerond]

 

It seem that all the nationalist parties are more than willing to take this opportunity offer their visions of UK's future to drive in their own agenda.

 

Weren't nationalist racist old people the "cause" of this most horrid Brexit? But I guess such reasonings are only valid when it actually furthers some agenda, and when not are discarded once more. That integrity.

 

 

It was nationalists (and political opportunists) in England that were major driving force behind Brexit, nationalist parties in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland seem to be mostly EU positive (which is most likely helped by fact that lots of English nationalists don't like EU).  

Edited June 28, 2016 by Elerond