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CRPGs have made a comeback! How about RTSs?


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Hello Chaps,

 

This is just MHO, but the RTS genre has really gone down the drain these last few years.

 

Blizzard used to be one of the main pillars of RTS, but Warcraft went the way of the MMORPG and Starcraft, while a great game, had an awful campaign which felt more RPG than "war" (a symptom of focusing so closely on certain individuals like Kerrigan and Raynor).

 

I don't even know what the C&C series is doing lately (I loved Red Alert 3 but that was back in 2008)

 

If I'm wrong here, please point me in the right direction, but it seems like there aren't any good RTSs recently? If cRPGs can make a comeback, I'd love to see a good RTS aimed at single players again.

 

Thoughts?

Edited by Heijoushin
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Well if someone tried to play every single RTS that was released in that 90s boom, they'd probably still be playing now. ;)

 

Can't really offer any useful feedback as it's my least favourite genre, other than perhaps making the claim that the level of complexity in the genre was saturated very early on it its lifecycle. In most other genres you can add more detail, more complexity, more interaction in general, and add to the experience that way, but requiring even more of that in a typical RTS would likely end up in an unplayable mess, I suspect.

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What about the new Ashes of The Singularity and Grey Goo? Both look pretty 'old school cool'.

 

Grey Goo didn't really work for me, but I'll look into Ashes of The Singularity. Thanks for the tip!

 

Well if someone tried to play every single RTS that was released in that 90s boom, they'd probably still be playing now. ;)

 

Can't really offer any useful feedback as it's my least favourite genre, other than perhaps making the claim that the level of complexity in the genre was saturated very early on it its lifecycle. In most other genres you can add more detail, more complexity, more interaction in general, and add to the experience that way, but requiring even more of that in a typical RTS would likely end up in an unplayable mess, I suspect.

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure I buy that. Are the other genres really increasing in complexity? Do all the new FPSs have new, original elements? 

Likewise, I can't believe that its impossible to improve on the RTS formula of the 90s.

 

I also think MOBAs stole some of the thunder

 

I have heard that before. But surely its a different experience? In MOBAs, you're a hero/one dude. In an RTS, you're the whole army.

Doesn't anyone else want to experience being the general of an army, instead of being a single grunt with a rifle?

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MOBA took a lot of RTS crowd, as it is comepetitive, easier on micro level and macro level, fast paced and team oriented

 

RTS need some game in the line of what XCom did for TB genre. It needs some triple A title that will be fun, fairly simple, but complex enough and difficult enough to not be a cake walk or broken balance wise.

 

RTS still has great games - CoH 2, SC2 - there is some rumor about re-release of the Warcraft games, so perhaps something is in works in that setting, there might be something in the works in the WH40k universe (DoW style).

 

RTS is a very demanding game type for a player - to be good at it, you need to be able to think and act on multpile layers at once, and it is generally hard (just look at the SC2 pro players, their crazy APM, map awareness, multitasking, micro of units) - so it is hard to make a good RTS, and easy to get in and play at a competent level. SP RTS side can be fun, but it is a one playthrough and you are done, MP where it is at in terms of life time and extended interest, and MP is really hard to get it right.

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MOBA took a lot of RTS crowd, as it is comepetitive, easier on micro level and macro level, fast paced and team oriented

 

RTS need some game in the line of what XCom did for TB genre. It needs some triple A title that will be fun, fairly simple, but complex enough and difficult enough to not be a cake walk or broken balance wise.

 

RTS still has great games - CoH 2, SC2 - there is some rumor about re-release of the Warcraft games, so perhaps something is in works in that setting, there might be something in the works in the WH40k universe (DoW style).

 

RTS is a very demanding game type for a player - to be good at it, you need to be able to think and act on multpile layers at once, and it is generally hard (just look at the SC2 pro players, their crazy APM, map awareness, multitasking, micro of units) - so it is hard to make a good RTS, and easy to get in and play at a competent level. SP RTS side can be fun, but it is a one playthrough and you are done, MP where it is at in terms of life time and extended interest, and MP is really hard to get it right.

 

Hmmm, I feel the difficulty is only an issue because of how multiplayer focused everything is these days. As you say, the difference in level between a pro (or even just an avid player) and an average joe is huge.

 

But if we had to go back to focusing on single player, then it won't matter as much. Either have multiple difficulty modes, or a campaign with a well-planned learning curve.

Edited by Heijoushin
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Still waiting for Warcraft IV...

 

Although I literally have no idea how would they handle the lore perturbations induced by wow storyline. 

Edited by MaxQuest
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What about the new Ashes of The Singularity and Grey Goo? Both look pretty 'old school cool'.

Grey Goo was a fun throwback to C&C for me.

 

Haven't heard anything indicating Ashes is all that hot though, from my buddies who really loved SupCom for that matter.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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one thing i heard about ashes is that the AI is "smart". it does not cheat as far as they can tell, but it's aggressive and reacts to your play style (i.e if is sends in a raid group and sees you don't have anti air units, you can be sure that the next thing that comes your way will be aircraft)

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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Apparently defensive play doesn't work as you could do in SupCom or TA as in use mass fabs and reactors then use arty or nukes. Kind of a shame as I turtle.

 

Will wait for a sale.

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Apparently defensive play doesn't work as you could do in SupCom or TA as in use mass fabs and reactors then use arty or nukes. Kind of a shame as I turtle.

 

Will wait for a sale.

im a turtler too but it's all about knowing how to turtle in each game. in SC you could establish an area as your base, make everything you need there and defend it until you are ready. in this you need battle lines as you progress through nodes. you make units, take nodes, make each node a base with defenses and production buildings. if you lose one you can fall back to the previous. basically you need to move the entire base forward if you want to use a turtle strategy. territory control is the name of the game in ashes

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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My understanding of turtling is different than that. But then again, that is why I suck at RTSs :p

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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"crpgs have made a comeback"

 

they did?

I second that, there are laughable amount of modern cRPGs that took at least some attention, and those are SO niche... RTS now are completely in the same boat. Few niche games here and there like Grey Goo, Ashes and etc... They'll never win over mass public unless devs strip it from each and every possible complicity down to the level of MOBAs, MMORPGs or CS-like shooters =/

 

Btw StarCraft 2, with a few complaints, is modern masterpiece IMO, campaign sucks, no argument, but as competetive online (as it suppose to be) it rocks real hard. Hopefully Bliz won't bury it in another MMO and we'll see SC3... one day.

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I believe there are more crpgs at a time now than 15 years back. And they got some good attention, so I guess the genre is at a good direction.

 

Some veterans are trying to revive the rts genre too, like Grey Goo and Planetary Annihilation. Don't forget about Stacraft 2 too. But I don't care much about them :p
I prefere my strategies turn-based :)

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I never got around to playing the last Company of Heroes game, was it any good?

A lot of people really like it, but i´m not such a big fan of small army or squad based combat, which is why i prefer Dawn of War 1 over the second game. Company of Heroes sits around 5 hours of gameplay in my steam list, that will probably never change :D

 

As for the topic, I would like to see some sort of return for the C&C franchise, keep it fun and cheesy, but EA ruined that one. (nothing new hu?)

 

Grey Goo was ok, but hated the mission design in that game, that really turned me off from playing more. Ashes, haven´t played that one yet, but have seen nothing to positive about it.

 

Act of Aggression could have been good but also suffers from some big problems like dumb AI and the setting isn´t very interesting either.

 

At least we got some decent new editions of older RTS games. AoE 1-2, AoM etc. They could bring back more, but unfortunally Publishers like to sit on their IP´s. No Dawn of War 3? Why not a decent fantasy RTS in the DnD setting? A new Dune wouldn´t hurt either.

 

The problem, i think, is that RTS is also considered a niche, with the exception of Starcraft (which most people buy for the story anyway). And when Publishers think it won´t make them Call of Duty money, the tend to not finance it.

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, the man who never reads lives one."

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"crpgs have made a comeback"

 

they did?

I second that, there are laughable amount of modern cRPGs that took at least some attention, and those are SO niche... RTS now are completely in the same boat. Few niche games here and there like Grey Goo, Ashes and etc... They'll never win over mass public unless devs strip it from each and every possible complicity down to the level of MOBAs, MMORPGs or CS-like shooters =/

 

Btw StarCraft 2, with a few complaints, is modern masterpiece IMO, campaign sucks, no argument, but as competetive online (as it suppose to be) it rocks real hard. Hopefully Bliz won't bury it in another MMO and we'll see SC3... one day.

 

 

Actally, aside of the story aspect of the epilogue, i'd say the SP campaign is rock solid as well with a variety of play styles and missions over three titles.

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I never got around to playing the last Company of Heroes game, was it any good?

way too much micro management required while the camera can't zoom out enough to allow awareness of the battlefield. 

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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"crpgs have made a comeback"

 

they did?

I second that, there are laughable amount of modern cRPGs that took at least some attention, and those are SO niche... RTS now are completely in the same boat. Few niche games here and there like Grey Goo, Ashes and etc... They'll never win over mass public unless devs strip it from each and every possible complicity down to the level of MOBAs, MMORPGs or CS-like shooters =/

 

Btw StarCraft 2, with a few complaints, is modern masterpiece IMO, campaign sucks, no argument, but as competetive online (as it suppose to be) it rocks real hard. Hopefully Bliz won't bury it in another MMO and we'll see SC3... one day.

 

 

Actally, aside of the story aspect of the epilogue, i'd say the SP campaign is rock solid as well with a variety of play styles and missions over three titles.

 

There was way too much budget put in cut-scenes and visual diversity, but campaign was damn too short, felt like you're flying through it. Also I didn't notice any variety. In most missions best possible unit composition and advancement was so painfully obvious... Insane amount of defensive missions in Protoss campaign along with infinite spawning troops were very odd decisions, considering Protoss brutally suck at defence and it's entirely not racial focus, like with Terrans, when those missions are fun... uh, anyway gotta stop derailing topic.

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I think the genre has been split in three:

- People who love micro went to mobas.

- People who like the strategy went to TB and 4x.

- People who like turtling and building defense have tower defense.

 

At the same time, the only standard bearer of the genre with any name recognition is Star Craft.  And not only is the writing of Star Craft getting less appealing as the gaming audience grows older, but the gameplay itself is probably less accessible than C&C (with it's heavy reliance on build order).  I think the genre probably needs some simpler games to draw people in, like slightly more complex than Eufloria, but not very.  

 

By the way, how's Planetary Annihilation?  I've heard not great things.

Edited by anameforobsidian
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By the way, how's Planetary Annihilation?  I've heard not great things.

 

It failed to deliver on what was promised, but the game is in and on itself fair enough at the current price.

Fortune favors the bald.

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