PC vs hired Pally (conviction of faith)

[Dorftek]

My question is, how big is the difference in conviction of faith between a PC pally and a hired one?

[kvaak]

PC paladins max out at 8/17, custom adventurers max out at 7/14. Both get 2/3 from deep faith. The additional point of fort/reflex/will for the PC is probably a rounding quirk.

Edited March 24, 2016 by kvaak

[hilfazer]

8/17 is a bug. PC paladin caps at 10/20, 12/23 with Deep Faith.

[Crucis]

8/17 is a bug. PC paladin caps at 10/20, 12/23 with Deep Faith.

 

This makes me wonder if Deep Faith is worth taking, compared to other talents one might take instead.  +2 DEFL and +3 other saves doesn't seem like such a huge benefit in the long run.

[Kaylon]

My question is, how big is the difference in conviction of faith between a PC pally and a hired one?

You also should keep in mind that PC can reach max defense pretty fast (dispositions can be maxed by lvl7-8 during ch2), while hirelings need to wait until lv16 to reach their max.

[limaxophobiacq]

 

8/17 is a bug. PC paladin caps at 10/20, 12/23 with Deep Faith.

 

This makes me wonder if Deep Faith is worth taking, compared to other talents one might take instead.  +2 DEFL and +3 other saves doesn't seem like such a huge benefit in the long run.

 

 

You can look at it this way; its 30% of the strength of each of the three fort/ref/will talents plus 40% of the strength of Superior Deflection, essentially making it 130% of the strength of any of those talents, assuming those talents are balanced with eachother. OTOH the fort/ref/will talents are kind of weak so being good in comparison to them doesn't really say that much. I still take it plus Superior Deflection though, I don't put much resolve on my paladins so I need all the deflection I can get.

[KDubya]

Also Pellagrina is better than any custom made paladin hireling.

 

So unless you are planning on having two Paladins and trying to decide if your MC should be a Paladin, the answer is Pellagrinna.

[limaxophobiacq]

Is Palleginas talent really that amazing to make up for how much better the Immolation is for a max-might max-int paladin, and for her lacklustre racial compared to a moon-godlike?

[Raven Darkholme]

Is Palleginas talent really that amazing to make up for how much better the Immolation is for a max-might max-int paladin, and for her lacklustre racial compared to a moon-godlike?

No.^^

[omgFIREBALLS]

 

8/17 is a bug. PC paladin caps at 10/20, 12/23 with Deep Faith.

 

This makes me wonder if Deep Faith is worth taking, compared to other talents one might take instead.  +2 DEFL and +3 other saves doesn't seem like such a huge benefit in the long run.

 

I'm not a big theorycrafter but in my parties, the paladin ends up with the highest defenses (and I always take Deep Faith). You say overkill? I say Defensive Mindweb <3

[Elric Galad]

Is Palleginas talent really that amazing to make up for how much better the Immolation is for a max-might max-int paladin, and for her lacklustre racial compared to a moon-godlike?

No but she is an excellent sniper. Few casters can resist Wrath + Alpha Strike FoD.

 

Basically, it is a good trade.

[Crucis]

 

Is Palleginas talent really that amazing to make up for how much better the Immolation is for a max-might max-int paladin, and for her lacklustre racial compared to a moon-godlike?

No but she is an excellent sniper. Few casters can resist Wrath + Alpha Strike FoD.

 

Basically, it is a good trade.

 

 

Pallegina's stats actually seem pretty decent to me when you really think about it.  Paladins are a fairly stat intensive class who derive value from nearly ever stat.  And Pallegina's stats are relatively well balanced across the board.   It seems to me that it's arguable that if you min-max a paladin too much, you'll end up leaving the character weak in some areas.  A high might/int pally may be great for auras and healing, but may end up with an overly low PER (unless you seriously dump other stats) and find yourself having difficulty hitting enemies.  Pallegina with her balanced stats may not hit enemies as hard as a high Might pally, but she probably hits more often because of her decent PER.

 

As for her racial ability, Lima may call it lackluster compared to moon GL's.  But I think that one could turn it around as say that Moon GL's racial ability is just plain OP compared to other racials, particularly GL racials.  (Frankly, the Moon GL racial would seem a lot less OP if it only affected the character itself and didn't generate a healing aura.)

[Boeroer]

I think I said in in some other thread. 3 points of any stat difference make a difference at the beginning of the game, but after that it's marginal. In my experience Pallegina is way better than a hireling until late midgame - simply because she will hit level ups sooner. One level makes a way bigger difference than +/- 5 PER or anything like that. Plus: her special talents ARE awesome. Wrath of the five suns (when build around shooting and missiles and fire) is devastating. She makes an excellent sniper who kills two to three dangerous enemies right at the beginning of a fight despite her low MIG. That's more valuable than most things you can expect from a hireling. And her Sacred Immolation is still great. It's not at it's optimum, but good enough.

[Dorftek]

Thank you for all the replies. It is true that Pallagina with her wrath is awesomesauce.

I just simply hate Godlikes cuz they can't wear helmets

There doesnt seem to be many good helmets tho.

 

Anyway, my question was answered, I'm happy! <3

 

Now I'm gonna Make a new thread! Yay!

[Rosveen]

Also Pellagrina is better than any custom made paladin hireling.

 

So unless you are planning on having two Paladins and trying to decide if your MC should be a Paladin, the answer is Pellagrinna.

If you did use two paladins, how would you build them? Would a tanky MC and more offensively focused Pallegina work? Edited March 24, 2016 by Rosveen

[Boeroer]

Sure works. Also two Zealous Auras are great. Zealous Endurance and Zealous Focus at the same time are awesome - even three paladins are great (focus, endurance, charge). So much healing, so many good per encounter abilities, so much defense. And after lvl 13: so much "firepower".

Edited March 24, 2016 by Boeroer

[Crucis]

Sure works. Also two Zealous Auras are great. Zealous Endurance and Zealous Focus at the same time are awesome - even three paladins are great (focus, endurance, charge). So much healing, so many good per encounter abilities, so much defense. And after lvl 13: so much "firepower".

 

But ... but .... but brimsurfer says that Paladins are "useless"!  How is it that they're so good for you?  (Watch out for the pools of sarcasm around your feet.) 

[KDubya]

 

Also Pellagrina is better than any custom made paladin hireling.

 

So unless you are planning on having two Paladins and trying to decide if your MC should be a Paladin, the answer is Pellagrinna.

If you did use two paladins, how would you build them? Would a tanky MC and more offensively focused Pallegina work?

 

 

You can go both tanky, both dps, one of each, whatever you want.

 

On PotD I've had Pellagrina with Estocs and MC Kind Wayfarer with TideFall (Greatsword). They did great, two aura, four LoH, four Reinforcing Exhortation, two Sacred Immolation. Two Paladins make for a great team, add in a Chanter (Kana) and you have three strong durable team members that make everyone else better. Sort of a 1 + 1 + 1 = 7 type of thing.

[Boeroer]

 

Sure works. Also two Zealous Auras are great. Zealous Endurance and Zealous Focus at the same time are awesome - even three paladins are great (focus, endurance, charge). So much healing, so many good per encounter abilities, so much defense. And after lvl 13: so much "firepower".

 

But ... but .... but brimsurfer says that Paladins are "useless"!  How is it that they're so good for you?  (Watch out for the pools of sarcasm around your feet.) 

 

Hehe - I don't recall what Brimsufer said: But I won't listen to anyone who says "class X is useless" (except of Brindle88, whom I will stomp ). I think that rogues are inferior to any other class... if I use them. Maybe I don't know how to play them, maybe they just don't fit my playstyle, maybe they fall behind because they didn't get that fancy updates lately - but I would never say they are useless. Somebody who says that a paladin is useless may connect "usefulness" to high dps or something. Don't know. Paladins make a playthrough a lot easier - at least for me. Lots of people say priests are mandatory - I skip them most of the time. Don't know why I have the feeling they don't add much to most of my parties. But why would I call them useless? 

The other day somebody said monks can do nothing other classes can't do better... 

[Crucis]

 

 

Sure works. Also two Zealous Auras are great. Zealous Endurance and Zealous Focus at the same time are awesome - even three paladins are great (focus, endurance, charge). So much healing, so many good per encounter abilities, so much defense. And after lvl 13: so much "firepower".

 

But ... but .... but brimsurfer says that Paladins are "useless"!  How is it that they're so good for you?  (Watch out for the pools of sarcasm around your feet.) 

 

Hehe - I don't recall what Brimsufer said: But I won't listen to anyone who says "class X is useless" (except of Brindle88, whom I will stomp ). I think that rogues are inferior to any other class... if I use them. Maybe I don't know how to play them, maybe they just don't fit my playstyle, maybe they fall behind because they didn't get that fancy updates lately - but I would never say they are useless. Somebody who says that a paladin is useless may connect "usefulness" to high dps or something. Don't know. Paladins make a playthrough a lot easier - at least for me. Lots of people say priests are mandatory - I skip them most of the time. Don't know why I have the feeling they don't add much to most of my parties. But why would I call them useless? 

The other day somebody said monks can do nothing other classes can't do better... 

 

 

I agree completely.

 

Frankly, the real problem here is that far too many people engage in considerable amounts of hyperbole in their online speech.  Instead of saying (for example) that class X "doesn't fit my play style" or "I can't seem to get as much out of (class X) as I think I should", too many will say that class X is "useless", which is total hyperbole.  No class is "useless".  Useless means having no use whatsoever.  And NO class in this game has no use whatsoever.  One might think that a class is underpowered, or doesn't like how the class was designed, etc.  But that's simply not the same thing as a class having zero utility within the game!!!

 

 

I get that some people are prone to hyperbole.  However, when other people point out how their hyperbole is dead wrong, the intelligent and honest person will admit that what they said was exaggerated.  I guess that's why it gets annoying when someone refuses to back down from their hyperbole in the face of a great number of other people telling him that the hyperbole is way over the top.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Crucis

[Boeroer]

Absolutely right. But I have to say that in this subforum I only meet reasonable people (except the occasional brindle here and there who does no real harm). Maybe it's because we are all full nerds.

[Raven Darkholme]

Absolutely right. But I have to say that in this subforum I only meet reasonable people (except the occasional brindle here and there who does no real harm). Maybe it's because we are all full nerds.

You were not around, when there were 10 threads with 10+ sites about how useless paladins and how superior fighters are?^^

[Gromnir]

 

Absolutely right. But I have to say that in this subforum I only meet reasonable people (except the occasional brindle here and there who does no real harm). Maybe it's because we are all full nerds.

You were not around, when there were 10 threads with 10+ sites about how useless paladins and how superior fighters are?^^

 

were surreal.  basically the argument went as follows:  

 

the paladin cannot tank as well as a fighter.

 

the paladin isn't as good in support as a priest.

 

therefore, as there are already two classes that do what a paladin can do and do it better, the paladin serves no purpose.

 

*shrug*

 

as crazy as it sounds, the vocal minority from march 2015 were far more likely to have agreed with brimsufer than the folks posting in this thread.

 

go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[KDubya]

Before the changes to Paladins in 1.06  they were pretty craptacular.

 

Back when:

1.) LoH did not scale with level

2.) FoD did nto have an accuracy buff

3.) LoH was only 1 per encounter

4.) Zealous auras got a big area increase

5.) Zealous auras got secondary effects

6.) Reviving exhortation had its endurance penalty reduced

7.) Exhortations became zero recovery actions

8.) reinforcing exhortation went from +15 to +25 deflection

 

and for Fighters you had Defender and wary defender getting you +15 deflection and +10 will, reflex and fort.

 

Back then Fighters were better and Paladins were worse. Paladins are now great and Fighters have gotten better with their new White March II abilities.

[Gromnir]

Before the changes to Paladins in 1.06  they were pretty craptacular.

 

Back when:

1.) LoH did not scale with level

2.) FoD did nto have an accuracy buff

3.) LoH was only 1 per encounter

4.) Zealous auras got a big area increase

5.) Zealous auras got secondary effects

6.) Reviving exhortation had its endurance penalty reduced

7.) Exhortations became zero recovery actions

8.) reinforcing exhortation went from +15 to +25 deflection

 

and for Fighters you had Defender and wary defender getting you +15 deflection and +10 will, reflex and fort.

 

Back then Fighters were better and Paladins were worse. Paladins are now great and Fighters have gotten better with their new White March II abilities.

kinda misleading. let's not forget that paladins have not actual improved much as tanks since 1.03.  as the paladin's abilities were largely support or fod related, removing perception as a defensive attribute hurt tanky paladins far more than fighters.  the reduced efficacy o' faith and convictions has also not exact benefited paladins tank quality, eh?  the ai improvements since 3.0 has also hurt tanky paladins a smidge as is now more important for tanks to do consistent damage to hold enemies, which requires that tank paladins must need actual consider damage output and accuracy.

 

fighters has also had numerous improvements, eh? the fighter actual had base deflection increased... which is rare mentioned when defender's nerfing is broached. knockdowns got a damage modifier and the accuracy bonus of disciplined barrage were increased. armoured grace, enter the fray and clear out were all improved. etc.

 

we can bring up the embarrassing paladin threads from pre 1.03 if you wish, but there were few folks such as Gromnir who were requesting better support qualities from paladins.  the complaints in the paladin threads were that they were not good enough at dps and were poor tanks compared to fighters. 

 

honest reflection:

 

the accuracy buff has done little to improve the paladin's dps output overall. paladins has never been bad at dps, but that is more due to the flexibility o' the poe mechanics than it is due to any obsidian improvements.  the largely token improvement to paladin dps via the accuracy improvement o' fod is more significant as a support boosting improvement as it makes the numerous on-kill abilities more viable. 

 

the paladin AND fighters has both had their tankiness nerfed a bit as both were too indestructible.  fighters are still better as pure tanks, but they lack the paladin's support qualities.... which is no real change from 1.03.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 26, 2016 by Gromnir