Character AI, why different from BG/DA?

corrado33 · March 22, 2016

As I've started playing this game, I've been mainly disappointed by one thing. The AI scripting for the characters is... less than stellar. I'm not sure if this has been discussed to death as I can't search for "AI," so if it has please point me in the right direction.

From what I remember, the AI scripting in BG was amazing. You could be prepared for anything! It was great and took out some of the micromanaging. (I think it was baldur's gate... I don't exactly remember.) Now, I don't mind micromanaging, it's the point of these games, but there is just something satisfying about having a party able to destroy enemies without actually having to do anything. I mean, even a simple "If this then that" type of system would be great. For my ranger, "If doing minimum damage, switch to steady shot modal" (or whatever it's called that gives you DR bypass for slower shots.) Dragon age's character AI was also pretty good, but IIRC they limited it based on a stat or something?)

Why not include a more... robust character AI system? Time? Money? One of my favorite things to do in the old RPGs was to take time to set up the characters to take care of each other.

<reminiscing>Also, contingency spells were freaking awesome in BG. But they were probably overpowered. I was always modding BG, and I constantly tried to create a "different" contingency spell so each wizard could have more than one contingency at a time (or more than however many was the limit.) I could never get it to work, I don't think the engine was built to handle more than one. </reminiscing>

Crucis · March 23, 2016

Honestly, it's beyond me to understand why anyone would even want to let the computer control your party's actions when you can do it yourself. Completely beyond me. If I wanted to watch someone else control the actions of characters on screen, I'd watch a movie. :getlost:

Marceror · March 23, 2016

I'm with Crucis on this. I didn't miss the lack of AI before it was implemented, and haven't bothered to use it since it was. I definitely prefer to control my party.

Marceror · March 23, 2016

Yes on both counts.

Crucis · March 23, 2016

The only AI-like feature that I miss from the old IE games is the "Defend Position" button. You selected a character, clicked the button and pointed to a location. And that character would stay at that location, attacking anything within his weapon range. It was great for holding chokepoints!

Edited March 23, 2016 by Crucis

Stoner · March 23, 2016

I don't think AI could ever handle really tough fights, and I honestly don't remember it being like that in BG (DA is different story, mechanics are so retarded, that AI doesn't even matter...)

PoE AI does great job in trash encounter fights, options are more than enough though in real combat you have to go manual, no other way around. Still 6 toons with auto-pause isn't much of a micro tbh.

Quillon · March 23, 2016

With the current AI system in PoE yeah I agree but with a system like in DaO you are basically planning the possible situations and watching how well you planned is fun(for me), tho dao's vanilla system was not bad, with a mod on nexus it became a lot better.

Everyone has their preferences, nothing would have been different for you if a customizable AI system were in the game(f.i. Story time mod hasn't changed anything for me, hopefully helped many). Obs decided not to do it, maybe they think its not an important enough feature, saved resources, missed out on some people who only play with good AI systems and maybe missed out on being praised for its AI system.

Madscientist · March 23, 2016

I played the IE games (without any mods, not the EE versions) and the AI did nothing but auto attacks when something hit you.

If the was an option to have better AI I would turn it off, because I want to select all spells and abilities myself.

Like crucis said: if you want the computer to do everything for you, then watch a video.

In PoE I have disabled AI except that they do auto attacks by themselves. The only exception was my monk because I did not want to select torments reach for every attack (and the result was that he wasted many stunning fists on enemies that were already stunned)

The only DA game I played was dragon age origins. In DA:O (and Final Fantasy 12 had a similar system) you could give each char a priority list of action, like:

- own HP below 50% -> use healing spell

- party member HP below 50% -> use healing spell

- Own MP above 50% -> use damage spell X

- else attack enemy that is attacked by the tank.

This system made trash encounters easier, but in most battles you had to pause and give commands yourself.

I like this more than the AI of PoE, because you can select what ability is used under which conditions.

This was nice for combo attacks, like use bash attack on a frozen enemy to shatter it.

PoE does not have combo attacks so this is less importand. (though some abilities have nice synergies)

MaxQuest · March 23, 2016

Exactly! Playing with extended AI options from DA:O was great fun, and it let you pass through regular encounters like a knife through butter, without pausing at all. And it wasn't like AI is playing instead of you. The feeling was closer to being a leader of a good team; and the pleasure you could get was similar to what a powerbuilder feels when he finally comes up with a good idea. Edited March 23, 2016 by MaxQuest

Killusion · March 23, 2016

Honestly, I for one love games that let me set nearly perfect AI behavior through editing scripts. What is awesome to me is to watch game play itself so well I really rarely need to take manual control (like in bosses etc). Final Fantasy 12 was the best game for this, and after that maybe Dragon Age 1 or 2.

Going to finally start Pillars next week, I don't know how well you can set AI behaviour but I hope it's thought out decently.

Blunderboss · March 23, 2016

I kinda find Defend Self , necessary for trash fights where u just want to auto attack enemies to death , without it my characters would go idle after killing one ( maybe it has to do something with my other options ) , other than that i would never use AI for fights .

corrado33 · March 23, 2016

I never said I wanted the computer to control every battle, and even with advanced scripting options you can NEVER plan for every battle. It more of just takes care of the repetitive things that you do EVERY encounter. Priest does Holy radiance, tank attacks strongest character, hunter does her wounding shot thing on the person the tank is attacking. Wizard can safely open up with arcane assault on the largest group of enemies. Things like "switch to YY weapons if XX weapons aren't effective." You are still certainly involved in every battle, but you get to focus on the nuances of the hard battles instead of thinking about all of the little things you forgot to do.

It's not like you can't cancel actions in PoE. You can see which spell a party member will use long before they actually use it. I mean it's pretty obvious that if my tank is low on endurance (and there's more than a few enemies alive) I'm most likely going to have my priest heal him. Like people mentioned above, it makes the trash encounters less annoying, yet still allows you to play the hard encounters just like you'd like.

Besides, it wouldn't effect anybody who didn't want to use it. They could simply... not use it.

Brimsurfer · March 23, 2016

Because its awesome to see your characters intelligently moving / manoeuvring around the battlefield, and you know that you made it happen by setting a particular combination of strategies. Its not like a movie at all. It imparts an enormous sense of accomplishment and fulfilment to the user / player.....it makes you think about countering enemy moves in advance and prepare yourself for upcoming battles in unique ways, it also allows the game to offer players more difficult and challenging encounters (as it provide devs more room and options to play with) and allows the players to have an excellent tool to better manage these intelligently designed superior challenges.

Can't imagine why anyone would consider current AI setting options sufficient for this kind of game, most of the settings are dumb and make you waste your spells / abilities in one way or another. One should never do anything half-ass, either give us a comprehensive AI strategy setting system, or don't do it all. I normally keep the AI settings turned off at all times, i even forgot that it exists, its simply that bad.

Not sure why its so 'completely beyond you'? There must be a lot that goes beyond you, I am guessing...

Edited March 23, 2016 by Brimsurfer

boffmoffet · March 23, 2016

Thats funny Brimsurfer, for someone who has like 4 threads running where you refuse to change your opinion about something and repeat the same arguments over and over to rile up the other members, I assumed you were our resident forum user for whom things are completely beyond understanding.

As for the AI, I think pathfinding could have been resolved better, but I dont really need a beefy AI. I agree that Dragon Age's AI system was FUN to play with, but I ultimately exercise to much control to care if such a system is implemented again. Thanks for the reminder of that AI system, I kinda miss it, might visit Dragon Age again.

FlintlockJazz · March 23, 2016

With these guys. I actually found it more frustrating when they added the AI in, bloody characters doing things without my permission...

Crucis · March 23, 2016

No, I can't imagine nor understand why anyone would want to use an AI in a game like this. To me, that makes it like watching a movie. If I want to watch a movie, I'll watch a friggin' movie.

As for the final sentence, coming from the person who refuses to accept that paladins in this game are useful, even if they're not what some people wish they were, takes a lot of chutzpah.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Crucis

meowbeast · March 23, 2016

Not only that, but one could increase the auto attack area by dragging the cursor. I do miss that.

corrado33 · March 23, 2016

Different play styles for different people. I personally think that AI would add to immersion. If you are playing AS your character, you shouldn't have control over your other characters, other than what you told them to do before the battle.

The feeling of accomplishment when you can simply run around with your character and do what's needed while your team supports YOU is amazing. Just because you haven't taken the time to properly set up an AI to play a decent game doesn't mean other's haven't. You're arguing with someone who doesn't think X feature/character is useful, yet you are arguing the exact same thing against AI. Pick a side why won't ya. People like to play differently. Deal with it.

Crucis · March 23, 2016

To me, this AI crap is a waste of time and resources that could be better spent adding more content. And CONTENT is what the game's all about, not some silly AI for people who are too lazy to actually manage their party properly.

corrado33 · March 23, 2016

Attacking people on a role playing game forum. You big man you.

Not everyone plays the game like you do big man. It's a GAME.

adikKt · March 23, 2016

I find AI useful when I dont want to micromanage fights that will be easy on first sight. I dont mean just trash encounters, but for example when returning from a cleaned out area and I meet a leftover group of weak enemies, I like to just set the AI to wipe em without me babysitting them.

MaxQuest · March 23, 2016

I'm ashamed to confess, but only on level 14, I did realize that Class Behavior can be safely set to "None", and it won't make Grieving Mother stop auto-attacking.

(if I was seeing that she is going to cast a power I don't want her to, I was spamming X before)

Edited March 23, 2016 by MaxQuest

HippoJ · March 23, 2016

The "I'd go watch a movie" argument presented several times here is lazy and shortsighted. For starters, setting up AI can be a game in and of itself, one clearly a decent percent of people here enjoy. It's also a standard feature (and dare I say assumption) for party-based RPGs to have some semblance of AI in place. Lastly, controlling your PC and setting up AI for companions is not aking to doing nothing.

None of this is to say the game "has to have" AI, and I played the entire game through before White March perfectly happily with no AI. It seems clear that some people do enjoy that option for a competent AI system and that Obsidian felt at least bare bones AI scripts were worth the time.

Killusion · March 23, 2016

I have no problem giving commands in actual turn based games for all my characters, that is normal and expected.
But if I'm playing one of these "real time with pause" games, pausing after every little action and clicking skills, targets and movements for several different characters just seems super tedious and makes the game feel unnecessarily slow. I still haven't played this game so I haven't experienced the combat, but I hope one of their focuses for the possible sequel is a robust, deep and flexible AI scripting/behavior options.

Marceror · March 23, 2016

It's not necessarily short sided. This is merely reflective of different peoples' preferences for how to play these games. It might seem short sided to you, but to another it might be one of the most important details about the game.

In my many years of playing RTwP CRPGs (since the initial release of Baldur's Gate) I have never used party AI, and I don't use it for Pillars either.

That said, I can agree that coming up with a really good AI set up can be enjoyable. For Dragon Age Origins, which to me is a completely different kind of game, I spent hours perfecting my party AI, and I only directly controlled all of my companions during the most challenging battles. But that's for Dragon Age. My Infinity Engine fix calls for different medications....

Character AI, why different from BG/DA?

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