The 'Sidian Tyranny thread

[Elerond]

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

It say so in http://www.tyrannygame.com/ if you scroll bottom of the page

 

Tyranny™ is a trademark of Paradox Interactive. All rights reserved.

2016 Paradox Interactive

[Zoraptor]

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

Tyranny is a Paradox owned trademark. Pillars of Eternity is an Obsidian owned one. While that is not an absolute indicator, especially for Paradox*, it's usually a good one for how things stand IP wise, and the publisher owning the IP is most usual practice.

 

*historically at least a lot of Paradox games have reverted to the developer- Penumbra, Mount & Blade, Elven Legacy, Lead and Gold; probably 6 years after publication since AKP'43 got pulled from GOG six years after its initial release. Whether that's still true or true for Tyranny is impossible to tell, as you'd have to wait six years to find out.

[Elerond]

 

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

Tyranny is a Paradox owned trademark. Pillars of Eternity is an Obsidian owned one. While that is not an absolute indicator, especially for Paradox*, it's usually a good one for how things stand IP wise, and the publisher owning the IP is most usual practice.

 

*historically at least a lot of Paradox games have reverted to the developer- Penumbra, Mount & Blade, Elven Legacy, Lead and Gold; probably 6 years after publication since AKP'43 got pulled from GOG six years after its initial release. Whether that's still true or true for Tyranny is impossible to tell, as you'd have to wait six years to find out.

 

 

Paradox owning the game's most important IP, which is trademark to it's name, there isn't really ways to sell game anywhere without Paradox giving their permission.

 

Obsidian probably owns some IP rights over the game, like for example technical solutions over Unity that give them ability make the game, they also probably have ownership over at least some of the art assets used in the game. But Paradox probably has permanent license to use these in the game and its marketing, and Obsidian gets lump sum or percentage compensation or combination of two as payment of use of their IPs. 

[Flouride]

 

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

It say so in http://www.tyrannygame.com/ if you scroll bottom of the page

 

Tyranny™ is a trademark of Paradox Interactive. All rights reserved.

2016 Paradox Interactive

 

 

But doesn't that mean that they just own the rights to the game (as they are the publisher, that's pretty much given), not the actual IP, the setting and possible sequels. There could be clauses in the contract that revert all rights back to Obsidian after number of years or if Paradox isn't interested in funding a sequel with a certain timelimit. Etc.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Flouride

[Elerond]

 

 

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

It say so in http://www.tyrannygame.com/ if you scroll bottom of the page

 

Tyranny™ is a trademark of Paradox Interactive. All rights reserved.

2016 Paradox Interactive

 

 

But doesn't that mean that they just own the rights to the game (as they are the publisher, that's pretty much given), not the actual IP, the setting and possible sequels. There could be clauses in the contract that revert all rights back to Obsidian after number of years or if Paradox isn't interested in funding a sequel with a certain timelimit. Etc.

 

 

They own game's most important IP, which mean that there can't be sequel that uses word Tyranny without Paradox giving permission to its use. Other IP rights that games have aren't as important as they mostly determine who owns art assets, music, writing, etc.. Because they make it possible to create spiritual successor, but not real sequel without trademark holders permission and they really can't prevent trademark holder to make sequel for the game if they want to do so.

 

Setting ownership can make things complicated, but owning rights to it don't really make possible to create sequels for Tyranny even though they make possible to create other games that don't have Tyranny in their name to that setting, but they can be used to prevent new game with Tyranny in their name made in said setting. We can see example of this in our Torment "sequel" (Torment Tides of Numenera).

 

EDIT: But it is because there is not mention about setting IP in the site like for example game set in Eora™/©. Eora™/© is a trademark/copyright of Obsidian Entertainment. All rights reserved. 2016 Obsidian Entertainment. It is highly probable that Paradox owns also rights to the setting. 

Edited March 20, 2016 by Elerond

[Bartimaeus]

That would be either Project Director with Lead Designer/Lead Systems Designer depending on the project and personnel involved. Josh has seemed pretty hands on when it comes to rule systems as project director (as an example).

 

Do we know if Sawyer is the lead designer (or the lead systems designer)? I can entertain notions of this game actually being enjoyable to play when we figure out that.

[Flouride]

 

That would be either Project Director with Lead Designer/Lead Systems Designer depending on the project and personnel involved. Josh has seemed pretty hands on when it comes to rule systems as project director (as an example).

 

Do we know if Sawyer is the lead designer (or the lead systems designer)? I can entertain notions of this game actually being enjoyable to play when we figure out that.

 

 

Josh is working on Project Louisiana which is most likely PoE 2.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Flouride

[Flouride]

 

 

 

 

This is a regular publisher/developer deal this time, the publisher has the IP so I don't think that Obsidian would use the Pillars Of Eternity IP. As far as lore goes, this time they don't have the weight of the Kickstarter's promises so they can limit themselves. For example, it seems we will only get two species (humans and beasts, whatever that is) this time rather than the five we has in Pillars.

 

How come everyone is so sure the IP will belong to Paradox?

 

 

It say so in http://www.tyrannygame.com/ if you scroll bottom of the page

 

Tyranny™ is a trademark of Paradox Interactive. All rights reserved.

2016 Paradox Interactive

 

 

But doesn't that mean that they just own the rights to the game (as they are the publisher, that's pretty much given), not the actual IP, the setting and possible sequels. There could be clauses in the contract that revert all rights back to Obsidian after number of years or if Paradox isn't interested in funding a sequel with a certain timelimit. Etc.

 

 

They own game's most important IP, which mean that there can't be sequel that uses word Tyranny without Paradox giving permission to its use. Other IP rights that games have aren't as important as they mostly determine who owns art assets, music, writing, etc.. Because they make it possible to create spiritual successor, but not real sequel without trademark holders permission and they really can't prevent trademark holder to make sequel for the game if they want to do so.

 

 

Well, they might own it for now. But with certain clauses in the contract those rights for the use of word Tyranny as well might revert back to Obsidian once the game is out and Paradox passes on the sequel. Until we hear from Feargus or someone else that knows for certain about this issue, I'm thinking it's pretty much 50/50 or as my childhood hero would have said fifty-sixty situation.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Flouride

[Hurlshort]

Just as an aside, Obsidian does not have the rights to Alpha Protocol either.  

[Flouride]

Just as an aside, Obsidian does not have the rights to Alpha Protocol either.  

 

Yes, that is a well known fact. Otherwise I'm sure they would have tried making a sequel to it by now.

[Hurlshort]

 

Just as an aside, Obsidian does not have the rights to Alpha Protocol either.  

 

Yes, that is a well known fact. Otherwise I'm sure they would have tried making a sequel to it by now.

 

 

Would they though?  I love the game, but they are running a business.  It didn't sell well, it isn't even really a cult hit.  If they really wanted to give it another go, they could probably easily lease or buy it from Sega.  But I don't see the profit in it.

[Flouride]

 

 

Just as an aside, Obsidian does not have the rights to Alpha Protocol either.  

 

Yes, that is a well known fact. Otherwise I'm sure they would have tried making a sequel to it by now.

 

 

Would they though?  I love the game, but they are running a business.  It didn't sell well, it isn't even really a cult hit.  If they really wanted to give it another go, they could probably easily lease or buy it from Sega.  But I don't see the profit in it.

 

 

From what I've understood/remember it did end up selling quite good... eventually. Naturally the horrible reviews it got from the weirldly biased NA press did hurt the sales a lot iniatially but the sales picked up with gamers recommending the game to each other. Can't remember if it ended up making profit for SEGA, but in proper hands I'm sure the development time for any sequel would have been much much shorter.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to think they would have shopped around the idea for a sequel. Obviously they wouldn't have had the capital to make one on their own nor would have Kickstarter covered the costs either. But if the IP was theirs, they could have asked around other publishers if they are interested in publishing the sequel with certain changes being made to the game to get better reviews even in NA and not just Europe.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Just as an aside, Obsidian does not have the rights to Alpha Protocol either.  

 

Yes, that is a well known fact. Otherwise I'm sure they would have tried making a sequel to it by now.

 

 

Would they though?  I love the game, but they are running a business.  It didn't sell well, it isn't even really a cult hit.  If they really wanted to give it another go, they could probably easily lease or buy it from Sega.  But I don't see the profit in it.

 

 

From what I've understood/remember it did end up selling quite good... eventually. Naturally the horrible reviews it got from the weirldly biased NA press did hurt the sales a lot iniatially but the sales picked up with gamers recommending the game to each other. Can't remember if it ended up making profit for SEGA, but in proper hands I'm sure the development time for any sequel would have been much much shorter.

 

I don't think it's a stretch to think they would have shopped around the idea for a sequel. Obviously they wouldn't have had the capital to make one on their own nor would have Kickstarter covered the costs either. But if the IP was theirs, they could have asked around other publishers if they are interested in publishing the sequel with certain changes being made to the game to get better reviews even in NA and not just Europe.

 

 

It sold more than PoE, but it is second worst selling game in Obsidian's roster (lifetime sales are still estimated to be 1 - 1.1 million copies, consoles 700k (sega's only official information)-850k (VGChartz - which is inaccurate and often overestimates sales), Steamspy estimates steam owners to be 250k-270k), but PoE most likely will give it its first place back soon (if haven't already thanks to WM part II's release). Without knowing its budget it is hard to say if it was profitable, but for Sega it was quite bad as their other games also flopped same time.

[Zoraptor]

You wouldn't make an AP sequel anyway, not with Sega owning the rights and given the contemporary setting there's little point buying them out just for Mike Thorton (whose name everyone gets wrong anyway), Stevie Heck etc. Some sort of kickstarter funded spiritual successor- a sort of Fallout KS to PoE's Baldur's Gate one- using AP's strengths as a selling point would be better, less limited and avoid baggage.
 

They own game's most important IP, which mean that there can't be sequel that uses word Tyranny without Paradox giving permission to its use. Other IP rights that games have aren't as important as they mostly determine who owns art assets, music, writing, etc..

 
Trademark is not that important. Achtung Panzer Kharkov 43 has two sequels despite Paradox (laughably, since it's from Heinz Guderian's book) owning the trademark and not being involved in those sequels. JoWood would still be making 'Gothic' games (with that name filed off) under the Arcania trademark if they hadn't gone bankrupt, that was the point of calling Gothic IV Arcania, to get a trademark JoWood owned plus their own copyrighted world thus getting around Piranha Bytes owning Gothic's ip. It's probably, overall, the least important part of the IP, though still important- it's useful to us primarily because it's obvious and easy to check whereas contracts and the like are best part of impossible. To illustrate further, EA owned System Shock as a trademark but it wasn't much use if you can't use Shodan or any of the other games' plot because an insurance company owns them, otoh if you're that insurance company you can just wait for the TM to expire and re-register it.

 

Plus Paradox does have a history of IP reversions, unlike most every other publisher, so there's substantial precedent.
 
It's more likely that Paradox owns it wholesale than the alternatives, but it isn't certain by any means.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

You wouldn't make an AP sequel anyway, not with Sega owning the rights and given the contemporary setting there's little point buying them out just for Mike Thorton (whose name everyone gets wrong anyway), Stevie Heck etc. Some sort of kickstarter funded spiritual successor- a sort of Fallout KS to PoE's Baldur's Gate one- using AP's strengths as a selling point would be better, less limited and avoid baggage.

 

They own game's most important IP, which mean that there can't be sequel that uses word Tyranny without Paradox giving permission to its use. Other IP rights that games have aren't as important as they mostly determine who owns art assets, music, writing, etc..

 

Trademark is not that important. Achtung Panzer Kharkov 43 has two sequels despite Paradox (laughably, since it's from Heinz Guderian's book) owning the trademark and not being involved in those sequels. JoWood would still be making 'Gothic' games (with that name filed off) under the Arcania trademark if they hadn't gone bankrupt, that was the point of calling Gothic IV Arcania, to get a trademark JoWood owned plus their own copyrighted world thus getting around Piranha Bytes owning Gothic's ip. It's probably, overall, the least important part of the IP, though still important- it's useful to us primarily because it's obvious and easy to check whereas contracts and the like are best part of impossible. To illustrate further, EA owned System Shock as a trademark but it wasn't much use if you can't use Shodan or any of the other games' plot because an insurance company owns them, otoh if you're that insurance company you can just wait for the TM to expire and re-register it.

 

Plus Paradox does have a history of IP reversions, unlike most every other publisher, so there's substantial precedent.

 

It's more likely that Paradox owns it wholesale than the alternatives, but it isn't certain by any means.

 

Trademarks are classed as most valuable and most fought IP. 

 

What comes to Achtung Panzer, Graviteam owns right to that name not Paradox.

 

With Gothic JoWood owned trademark for that to the end. Edit: Which is why Piranha Bytes created their Risen series.

 

EDIT2: Gothic thing is actually good example why trademarks are valued. Your post gives implication that Arcania: Gothic 4  is for you forth game in Gothic series, even tough Risen and its sequels are made by original developers of Gothic series as sequel for their Gothic (parts 1 and 2) series.

 

EDIT3: Removed text that said that Piranha Bytes didn't make Gothic 3. They didn't make Gothic 3: Forsaken Gods which is only addon to Gothic 3.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Elerond

[Lexx]

As far as I remember, JoWood had the name "Gothic" only for x amount of titles. Which is most likely why they started to call Gothic 4 "Arcania - something something" instead... To possibly make a followup Arcania that isn't a Gothic game. Thankfully such a turd never happened. :>

[Zoraptor]

[JoWood's contract post split with PB was a G3 expansion, farmed out to some Indians, and G4 plus expansion, with a set time limit after which PB could make Gothic games themselves and JoWood could not; Risen was so they could continue to do Gothic style games before that expiration. It did not involve reversion of published titles though, so Nordic still publishes G2/ G3/ G4]

 

Trademark info per TESS/ USPTO (I bet the formatting will go despite wysiwyg [ho hum] so I'll end up spending ages fixing it then get bored and just abridge it). AP isn't registered with Euro version, Gothic is identically to USPTO. Trademarks value is highly variable, for a company name and the like it's of near absolute importance, for subsidiary items it's far less so. So something like 'Obsidian Entertainment' as a TM would be critically important, 'Pillars of Eternity' as a TM far less so.

 

Word Mark ACHTUNG PANZER Translations The English translation of "ACHTUNG PANZER" is ATTENTION TANK. Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer game software. FIRST USE: 20100222. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20100222 Standard Characters Claimed   Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK Serial Number 85430478 Filing Date September 23, 2011 Current Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition April 3, 2012 Registration Number 4160462 Registration Date June 19, 2012 Owner (REGISTRANT) ********Paradox Interactive AB CORPORATION SWEDEN******* Asogatan 108 Stockholm SWEDEN SE-11829 Attorney of Record Frederick U. Fierst Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

 

 

Word Mark GOTHIC Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Pre-recorded software available on CD-ROMs, diskettes, and downloadable through a global computer network for action and adventure video and computer games. FIRST USE: 19971212. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19971212 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 75553511 Filing Date September 16, 1998 Current Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Published for Opposition November 16, 1999 Registration Number 2315909 Registration Date February 8, 2000 Owner (REGISTRANT) PIRANHA BYTES SOFTWARE GMBH CORPORATION FED REP GERMANY Marthastrasse 2A 44791 Bochum FED REP GERMANY

(LAST LISTED OWNER) *******PLUTO 13 GMBH CORPORATION******* FED REP GERMANY RUHRALLEE 63 ESSEN FED REP GERMANY 45138

Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record Shauna M. Wertheim Type of Mark TRADEMARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20090311. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20090311 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

 

 

 

(Pluto13 is Piranha Bytes' holding company, PB's website is run via Pluto13 for example).

Edited March 20, 2016 by Zoraptor

[HoonDing]

Game looks and feels like an isometric Dragon Age 2.

[Bartimaeus]

That seems just about the harshest way you could possibly describe a game.

[Elerond]

It seems that in US Paradox own the trademark, which is probably why sequel is there called Graviteam Tactics: Operation Star

 

EDIT: Piranha Bytes had sold JoWood temporal rights for Gothic, which is why after the split JoWood renamed Gothic 4 to Arcania - Gothic 4/Gothic tale, so that they get series fans to buy their new game and start new IP from that. And Piranha Bytes created Risen when they waited to get their rights back.

 

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-05-why-gothic-dev-piranha-dumped-jowood

 

"Currently, JoWooD has no more rights on developing any further Gothic titles, so the rights are back - they will be back I think next year. I don't have the contract here. Very soon the contract runs out and we will get the rights back. And we knew that from the start."

Edited March 20, 2016 by Elerond

[ShadySands]

Game looks and feels like an isometric... 

 

please, go on

 

 

 

...Dragon Age 2.

[Stoner]

 

I'm really excited about this game, love dark setting, love cRPGs, which Obs delivered with style in PoE, but I can't wrap my head around one thing:

There were few huge discussions where devs (rather writers I guess) of PoE confessed how much pain in the ass was creating brand new universe with unique lore, rule sets and etc, involving lots of descriptions and attempts to make this brand new world sound, which is perfectly understandable. But now there's another unique new universe in making, right? Is it somehow related to PoE? If not, wouldn't it be easier for teams to get together and use PoE as basis for new stories, picking maybe different historical periods of certain universe instead of creating something absolutely alien? It will cut the job nicely for devs and by more "friendly" for players to get into... that goes without saying that PoE already has very solid lore, and enormous basis which can be used and built upon however you like (IMHO) plus it looks like setting would have some aspects in common...

 

The evil won would be really hard to fit into the PoE lore even if set in different time. It's much easier to come up with a new setting than fit this into the PoE mold. And it gives them chance to do different things with magic and other rule systems as well.

 

Also, since they are most likely making PoE2 by now, releasing only games into the Pillars of Eternity setting would be risky and shortsighted, when they've got the chance to broaden their portfolio and maybe (depending on the deal) get to create a new IP and setting to release future games in.

 

Not to mention, not everyone liked Pillars of Eternity, whether it was the setting or the rule system/gameplay, creating very similar game to PoE would not cater to those (especially when they've got that all ready covered with PoE2) potential customers.

 

Fair enough I guess, but broading portfolio for Obs? Well, that's rich, not like they would really crave for something like that... hm, not sure. Anyway, from my point of view, most guaranteed customers would be exactly those, who liked PoE and in Obs place I would certainly try to work around that, rather than doing something completely new. Those few screens I've seen reminded me alot about PoE in the first place, that's why this game actually caught my attention. I'm sure if I wouldn't like PoE, I probably wouldn't be looking their new IP way... And on history argument, "several millenniums ago" wouldn't need much explaining I think...

[Flouride]

 

 

I'm really excited about this game, love dark setting, love cRPGs, which Obs delivered with style in PoE, but I can't wrap my head around one thing:

There were few huge discussions where devs (rather writers I guess) of PoE confessed how much pain in the ass was creating brand new universe with unique lore, rule sets and etc, involving lots of descriptions and attempts to make this brand new world sound, which is perfectly understandable. But now there's another unique new universe in making, right? Is it somehow related to PoE? If not, wouldn't it be easier for teams to get together and use PoE as basis for new stories, picking maybe different historical periods of certain universe instead of creating something absolutely alien? It will cut the job nicely for devs and by more "friendly" for players to get into... that goes without saying that PoE already has very solid lore, and enormous basis which can be used and built upon however you like (IMHO) plus it looks like setting would have some aspects in common...

 

The evil won would be really hard to fit into the PoE lore even if set in different time. It's much easier to come up with a new setting than fit this into the PoE mold. And it gives them chance to do different things with magic and other rule systems as well.

 

Also, since they are most likely making PoE2 by now, releasing only games into the Pillars of Eternity setting would be risky and shortsighted, when they've got the chance to broaden their portfolio and maybe (depending on the deal) get to create a new IP and setting to release future games in.

 

Not to mention, not everyone liked Pillars of Eternity, whether it was the setting or the rule system/gameplay, creating very similar game to PoE would not cater to those (especially when they've got that all ready covered with PoE2) potential customers.

 

Fair enough I guess, but broading portfolio for Obs? Well, that's rich, not like they would really crave for something like that... hm, not sure. Anyway, from my point of view, most guaranteed customers would be exactly those, who liked PoE and in Obs place I would certainly try to work around that, rather than doing something completely new. Those few screens I've seen reminded me alot about PoE in the first place, that's why this game actually caught my attention. I'm sure if I wouldn't like PoE, I probably wouldn't be looking their new IP way... And on history argument, "several millenniums ago" wouldn't need much explaining I think...

 

 

Well considering that they only own PoE brand, getting more brands under their name (depending on the contract) would be highly valuable for them. They can't just work on other people's IPs for eternity or ride that one PoE pony for tens of games either. Also Tyranny was already being made before PoE was even out, it would have been highly risky of them to put all of their eggs into the same basket. If PoE fails badly, what do you think would happen to a game that shares the same universe, rule settings and magic system?

 

Several milleniums ago would be really cheap way to do it. It works for Star Wars, but a new brand? Cmon.... They would still be stuck with the rule setting and some of the same bestiary etc. There's really no point going that way when they we've got a team working on PoE 2 already.

[ManifestedISO]

You keep saying that, about PoE 2, but for some reason I don't think Louisiana is P2. Not trying to argue.

[Flouride]

You keep saying that, about PoE 2, but for some reason I don't think Louisiana is P2. Not trying to argue.

 

True, it could be something else as well. Even a WoD game, or some new IP that they want to KickStart and they'll just have PoE 2 on the backburner/pre-production and plan it out with more time than they did the first time around.