Attack speed 2.0

[AndreaColombo]

That must have been a lot of work. Hats off to you ten times over and then some, MaxQuest.

 

 

I have but a couple observations:

 

• In the "Damage" spreadsheet, you affirm "damaging bonuses are multiplicative", but they have been long known to be additive instead. Using your example with the War Bow, we get:

Base 13-20

Multiplicative bonuses:

Min- 13 * 1.27 (might) * 1.4 (whip) * 1.45 (superb) = 34 (33.5)

Max 20 * 1.27 (might) * 1.4 (whip) * 1.45 (superb) = 52  (51.5)

 

but the real numbers, as shown in your very spreadsheet, are:

Min- 13 * (1.27 + 1.4 + 1.45) = 28 (27.5)

Max- 20 * (1.27 + 1.4 + 1.45) = 41 (41.1)

 

• In the "Speed" tab, you say bonuses to recovery time stack additively but the tests and math in this very thread proved they are, in fact, multiplicative: bonus1 * bonus2 * bonus3 ... = total_bonus
• Swift Aim suppressing the chant might be a bug; they are not bonuses from the same source so ideally they should be stacking. You may want to raise this to the devs.

[MaxQuest]

Thank you. It was.

 

Regarding damage_stacking formula. You are right it's additive. Damn that tab wasn't meant to get into the public version as it was still a WiP. Was tired and it slipped away

Fixed it.

 

 

Regarding recovery speed: I double and triple checked. The frame values are precise. And from those values it really seems that the stacking is additive. Results being +/- 1 frame from the expected value.

[Kaylon]

It's a bit surprising that there is nowhere to be found up-to-date and accurate source of weapon speed frame-times.

I have made few speed tests today. If anyone is interested, results can be found here: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ9tL1yRSekjFPUew5LS3-WRgpXuS76ZKHIuns1QWTY/edit#gid=0

 

P.S. Confirming that Swift Aim's reloading bonus overrides that of "Sure-Handed Ila Nocked Her Arrows with Speed" chant.

There is a complete excel file which is still pretty accurate, however some formulas are outdated.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1625543

Edited January 31, 2016 by Kaylon

[AndreaColombo]

There is a complete excel file which is still pretty accurate, however some formulas are outdated.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1625543

 

Been doing some maintenance on that sheet lately (mostly fixing formulas with bad cell references, restoring formulas that had been hard coded for some reason, and adding data for TWM pt. I monsters), but some of the formulas I don't even know what they're for. What formulas are outdated? Can we updated them?

[MaxQuest]

There is a complete excel file which is still pretty accurate, however some formulas are outdated.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1625543

 

Indeed, those values are pretty close to those I've got.

 

If I would stumble upon it before, I probably wouldn't run the tests.

It was this document I've stumbled upon, which gave me sensation that some values are odd:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515

 

-----------------------------

 

Btw (a bit unrelated but), do I understand it right that if you

- attack with dual sabres, you get: 30 frames (att), 30 frames (rec), 30 frames (att), 30 frames (rec)

- attack with one-handed sabre, it goes: 30 frames (att), 54 frames (rec)

 

And by reducing recovery to zero, the character will attack one-handed with the same speed as dual-wielder, while also having +12 accuracy?

[AndreaColombo]

If I would stumble upon it before, I probably wouldn't run the tests.

It was this document I've stumbled upon, which gave me sensation that some values are odd:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515

 

That's just a different tab of the same DPS calculator sheet?

 

 

If you bring your recovery down to 0 with a Sabre and have a DEX score of 10, you attack at 30 frame plus a 4-frame delay—that's faster than a dual-wielder (who attacks at 30+30=60 plus a 4-frame delay.)

 

 

Could you post a couple sample scenarios with math about recovery? Whenever I tried to use bonuses as additive, I'd end up with differences vs. my expectations. The moment I used multiplicative bonuses, everything matched up perfectly. Kaylon's example of 0 recovery also wouldn't work with additive bonuses, but it does get you to 0 recovery in-game.

[Kaylon]

If you reduce recovery to 0% then DW, 1H and S&S would all attack at the same speed. Dual wielders can however reach 0% recovery even without buffs...

[MaxQuest]

That's just a different tab of the same DPS calculator sheet?

 

 

Hmm, I am pretty sure it was originally linking to:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MO3U4gv7VPQtfHwPNy_MKPZl_3wJow34QTARLH8ILLI/edit#gid=1848365110

Unless I am seeing things... (well, at least I am finally off 4 hours moderation delay, and can post-check my posts..)

 

If you bring your recovery down to 0 with a Sabre and have a DEX score of 10, you attack at 30 frame plus a 4-frame delay—that's faster than a dual-wielder (who attacks at 30+30=60 plus a 4-frame delay.)

 

It seems that:

If we consider 4-frame delay as part of "action": both speeds are equal. Damage being inflicted every 30 frames.

If we don't: one-handed is sliiiightly slower (by 6%) (68/64 - 1)

- one-handed: - 4-frames-delay -> 30 frames (main hand attack) -> 4 frames-delay-> 30 frames (main hand attack)

- dual-wield: -4-frames-delay-> 30 frames (main hand attack -> 30 frames( off hand attack)) 

 

Could you post a couple sample scenarios with math about recovery? Whenever I tried to use bonuses as additive, I'd end up with differences vs. my expectations. The moment I used multiplicative bonuses, everything matched up perfectly.

 

 

That' strange. Before going to take those tests, I have search the forum a little, and stumbled upon Kaylon's and Baki's posts, both mentioning that recovery stacking is additive. I had zero doubts when observed results did match the expected ones.

 

The posts I refer to:

- https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79407-ranged-attack-speed-buff-stacking/?p=1689982

- http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1604210

 

At the moment I am looking at the first post in this thread, where Kaylon has introduced the "categories". This opens a potential explanation:

- all things I have tested, belong to different categories, and thus they stack additevely as he writes in p.4.

But I suppose this requires further testing. Also there is one thing that puzzles me... In p4. he mentions that "Sure-Handed Ila Nocked Her Arrows with Speed", "Deleterious Alacrity of Motion" and "Gauntlets of Swiftness" do stack additevely. While in p3, it's written that they stack multiplicatively.

 

P.S. I could make few more tests once I get home. Although I won't be able to test the things you call durgan refinements, since it seems there is no console command to enchant one's weapon. And being myself lvl 5 (on my first play-though ever, yeap ), I don't have access to enchanting yet. So it will take time.

P.P.S. The reason I've went into math/optimization so early, is because.. Warchief Iklak has repeatedly handed my head to me on level 4. So I've made a conclusion that I need a stronger, min-maxed party.

 

Kaylon's example of 0 recovery also wouldn't work with additive bonuses, but it does get you to 0 recovery in-game.

 

Could you post a link to, or quote his example?

Also I need to mention that with additive bonuses it's often easier to get to 0 recovery. Baki also noticed that in the linked post.

This happens because additive stacking is usually implemented in increasing-returns manner. Unlike in multiplicative approach.

 

 

If you reduce recovery to 0% then DW, 1H and S&S would all attack at the same speed. Dual wielders can however reach 0% recovery even without buffs...

 

I agree. With one-handed weapon, one misses +20% attack speed from "Two-Weapon Style". But... it opens the possibility to math it-out for barbarians. monks and melee ciphers. There is also a party attack-speed buff incoming for Pallegina in 3.0.

And.. I didn't yet do the math for the straight-up +80% spd one-handed vs +100% spd dual-wield damage. What if.. suddenly it's worth it?

Edited January 31, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

Prior to 2.0 all items with attack speed were bugged and did nothing, you had basically only speeds from different categories which were stacking additively - that's why everyone supposed speed was additive.

 

Dual wielders get also the speed(s) from the left hand besides the Two Weapons Style...

[AndreaColombo]

 

Kaylon's example of 0 recovery also wouldn't work with additive bonuses, but it does get you to 0 recovery in-game.

 

Could you post a link to, or quote his example?

Also I need to mention that with additive bonuses it's often easier to get to 0 recovery.

This happens because additive stacking is usually implemented in increasing-returns manner. Unlike in multiplicative approach.

 

It's in the first page of this thread:

 

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion -50%

Durgan-refined weapon -15%

Speed weapon enchant. -20%

Gauntlets of Swift Action -15%

 

Plate +50%

Durgan-refined plate -15%

 

This set up lets you attack with 0 recovery (which both Kaylon and I verified via frame counting), which is only possible if bonuses stack multiplicatively:

 

Recovery = 100% + 50% - 15% = 135%

 

Bonuses = -50% * -15% * -20% * -15% = -138%

 

135% - 138% = 0 recovery (with a -3% bonus getting lost.)

 

 

If bonuses were additive, we'd have:

 

-50% + -15% + -20% + -15% = 100%

 

135% - 100% = 35% recovery

 

which cannot be observed in-game under these circumstances.

 

 

I too thought bonuses were additive until I saw this thread; it's pretty recent news

 

If you want a high single-target DPS build, search the boards for my Lady of Pain. Pick the Blade of the Endless Paths version, equip her with the Gauntlets of Swing Action instead of the Gauntlets of Accuracy, and you have a 0-recovery killing machine. You may even swap Lilith's Shawl for Hiro's Mantle to get extra DR and Retaliation (as well as for looking badass); then sleep in Caed Nua for +3 PER instead of +3 DEX to make up for it. I'll put all this stuff in my next update after TWM pt. II comes out.

Edited January 31, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[MaxQuest]

Prior to 2.0 all items with attack speed were bugged and did nothing, you had basically only speeds from different categories which were stacking additively - that's why everyone supposed speed was additive.

 

Dual wielders get also the speed(s) from the left hand besides the Two Weapons Style...

 

Heh, didn't know that speed enchants will stack.

Decided to check it. They do: http://i.imgur.com/51qGK43.png

 

-------------

 

@AndreaColombo, g2g at the moment, but will take a look later.

Edited February 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[limaxophobiacq]

So Barbarian with a Speed weapon (+20%), Durgan Refined (+15%), Gauntlets (+15%) and Frenzy (+33%) wearing a Breastplate (-40%) that is Durgan Refined (+15%) using a Durgan Refined Shield (+15%) would get:

 

1.2*1.15*1.15*1.33 - (0.4 - 0.15 - 0.15) = 2.01 = no recovery? Cutting it as close as possible.

Edited January 31, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[Kaylon]

So Barbarian with a Speed weapon (+20%), Durgan Refined (+15%), Gauntlets (+15%) and Frenzy (+33%) wearing a Breastplate (-40%) that is Durgan Refined (+15%) using a Durgan Refined Shield (+15%) would get:

 

1.2*1.15*1.15*1.33 - (0.4 - 0.15 - 0.15) = 2.01 = no recovery? Cutting it as close as possible.

The bonus from shield is considered speed too. So it's 1.2*1.15*1.15*1.15*1.33-(0.4.-0.15)=2.18 and your barbarian can wear even plate.

[limaxophobiacq]

Noice. So you could do this with any character in Sanguine Plate as long as you can manage to get critted even though you are using a shield.

[wiarygodny]

So frenzy stacks multiplicatively.

 

How about swift aim, monk's swift strikes and cipher's 7-th level power?

[AndreaColombo]

Those too.

[Livegood118]

Prior to 2.0 all items with attack speed were bugged and did nothing, you had basically only speeds from different categories which were stacking additively - that's why everyone supposed speed was additive.

 

Dual wielders get also the speed(s) from the left hand besides the Two Weapons Style...

 

Hi Kaylon, can you confirm what you mean by the second paragraph here? As in, if a character is dual wielding without any other speed buffs and has two weapon style, does he get .2+.2 (for each weapon) modded to his recovery?

Edited February 1, 2016 by Livegood118

[Kaylon]

 

Prior to 2.0 all items with attack speed were bugged and did nothing, you had basically only speeds from different categories which were stacking additively - that's why everyone supposed speed was additive.

 

Dual wielders get also the speed(s) from the left hand besides the Two Weapons Style...

 

Hi Kaylon, can you confirm what you mean by the second paragraph here? As in, if a character is dual wielding without any other speed buffs and has two weapon style, does he get .2+.2 (for each weapon) modded to his recovery?

 

No, it means that the speed bonuses you have on your left weapon will stack with your other speed bonuses.

[Livegood118]

 

 

Prior to 2.0 all items with attack speed were bugged and did nothing, you had basically only speeds from different categories which were stacking additively - that's why everyone supposed speed was additive.

 

Dual wielders get also the speed(s) from the left hand besides the Two Weapons Style...

 

Hi Kaylon, can you confirm what you mean by the second paragraph here? As in, if a character is dual wielding without any other speed buffs and has two weapon style, does he get .2+.2 (for each weapon) modded to his recovery?

 

No, it means that the speed bonuses you have on your left weapon will stack with your other speed bonuses.

 

Oh ok sorry my bad!

[limaxophobiacq]

So how does Reload Speed work?

 

Does +50% Reload Speed mean you end up with (base/1.5) reload frames or (base*0.5) reload frames?

 

If you have swift aim (+50%) and gunner (+20%) do you get +80% (1.5*1.2) reload speed or +70% (1.5+0.2) reload speed?

Edited February 2, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[knownastherat]

btw is there reason not to have "attack speed" noted in game in the same fashion other mechanics are? That would end most of these debates while providing essential info to player.

[AndreaColombo]

^ Josh said they know how painful it is for players to calculate their DPS in this game and it is something they'd fix with high priority for a sequel.

 

For PoE, however, this is as good as it gets.

[Kaylon]

So how does Reload Speed work?

 

Does +50% Reload Speed mean you end up with (base/1.5) reload frames or (base*0.5) reload frames?

 

If you have swift aim (+50%) and gunner (+20%) do you get +80% (1.5*1.2) reload speed or +70% (1.5+0.2) reload speed?

50% reload speed means you end up with (base/1.5) and if you add gunner it will be (base/1.8 ).

Edited February 2, 2016 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Thanks - I also wanted to know that. What if you add DEX 20 (+30% speed) into the mix? 1.5*1.2*1.3 = 2.34 => base/2.34? Or how is the bonus from DEX calculated?

[limaxophobiacq]

 

So how does Reload Speed work?

 

Does +50% Reload Speed mean you end up with (base/1.5) reload frames or (base*0.5) reload frames?

 

If you have swift aim (+50%) and gunner (+20%) do you get +80% (1.5*1.2) reload speed or +70% (1.5+0.2) reload speed?

50% reload speed means you end up with (base/1.5) and if you add gunner it will be (base/1.8 ).

 

 

So even with Swift Aim + Gunner an arquebus will still always have 108 frames reload before Dex. I love the concept of gun-rangers but bow-rangers certainly seem to be getting the better deal with their double arrows and stunlocking. Alacrity of Motioned 0-recovery bow-ranger gets 8 arrows in the time arquebus-ranger fires one shot.