Planescape: Torment is PC Gamer's Bestest RPG of All Time

[Zoraptor]

That's not what the game did.

 

Indeed. PST leaves unanswered questions primarily because you want to ask them and seek them out, and because it elicits actual thought about the subject matter. It's not because of any cut content or such. KOTOR2 is normally a decent comparison to PST for obvious reasons, but it was utterly butchered when it came to cut content unlike PST. It's lazy and facile to compare unanswered questions generated by increased interest in the subject matter to questions posed by plot holes/ cut content. No story can- or should- answer every question unless it's utterly simplistic plus it's 'unrealistic' for you to learn everything; and it's far worse to end a game (with a story/ philosophical focus) with zero questions because that almost always means you simply don't care about that story which is meant to be a primary focus. That's not true for all games of course since many don't have a set narrative or it isn't the focus, but it's true for any game with pretensions towards philosophy especially, questions are kind of intrinsic to proper philosophy, or story depth.

[Gromnir]

 

That's not what the game did.

 

Indeed. PST leaves unanswered questions primarily because you want to ask them and seek them out, and because it elicits actual thought about the subject matter. 

and it fails as often as it succeeds.  the questions a reader, as with all literature be it digital or print, should be questions 'o why rather than what.  seek out answers to novek's posited questions has no answers w/i the game, and they ain't philosophical quandaries existing beyond the scope o' the art neither.  

 

ps:t is our favorite game, but we wouldn't call it best... and the writing is often amateurish and crude. is heavy on exposition and dime store philosophy while leaving many practical questions unanswered.  

 

we can question and wonder the value and meaning o' ravel, but we is not left wondering what happened to her or the reasons she cursed/blessed tno.  the major questions gots answers w/i the context o' the game.  you not need secondary sources or imagination to find answers to ravel.  sure, you can argue what was author intent and makes up theories 'bout  symbolism til you turn blue in face, but is answers w/i game that is no doubt why ravel were a favorite character o' MCA, who stated that he found ways to add her to all subsequent black isle/obsidian games.  

 

and again. it takes no art or skill to create questions and then fail to answer.  the notion that questions raised should be answered is considered axiomatic w/i the craft, though as with all such "rules" it is broken as often as not. is there reasons other than choosing to leave up to imagination to fail at answering novek questions? no?  if is simple some vague notion that unanswered leads to greater enlightenment that guides one to suggest that more unanswered questions is better, then:  fail.  if gonna break "rule," one need understand and have reasons for breaking.  can be specific 'bout the usefulness o' a particular unanswered question?  fine,  but silly notion that unanswered is better is contrary to reasonable outcomes desired w/i the art.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

being able to imagine countless nameless one lives is not leaving questions unanswered, but we will put it in nerdish: leave question o' luke skywalker parentage unanswered woulda' been better? 

 

That is a strange analogy.

 

 

When we look at A New Hope we learn very early who Luke's father was: Anakin Skywalker, betrayed and killed by Obi-Wan's failed apprentice Darth Vader. The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi retconned that into meaning that Anakin Skywalker was seduced by the dark side and that this "killed" Anakin Skywalker, cue stuff about a certain point of view.

 

Looking at PS:T the two truly major questions that remain are:

 

• TNO's name, which he can learn if you carry the dead sensory stone to the very end of the game and
• the exact nature of his crime(s) which consigned him to eternal damnation on the Lower Planes

 

If you want to liken this to Star Wars it would be much more appropriate to say that, like the Original Incarnation's crimes, we never learn the exact reason why Anakin fell and became Darth Vader - and we do not need to know because the original trilogy simply was not about the how and why Anakin fell, much like PS:T isn't about the exact crimes behind the reason why TNO's first incarnation went to bargain for immortality with Ravel.

 

We know why he did it. Because he was destined for (A)D&D's very literal hell. He did it because he needed more time to right the wrongs he commited and because he deeply regretted them. We know Anakin was seduced by the dark side. Is is story truly better served by knowing it happened beacuse he was a whiny little prick who knocked up Padme because the both of them were too dumb to use birth control while having a secret relationship that could undo both their carreers?

 

For 28 years we did not know the real reason behind his fall - now we do, and many, me included, wish we could go back to not knowing.

 

As for TNO's name, well, sorry, sure it is an interesting question but it is really only related to the power of (true) names written into the setting itself. The story is completely fine without it, and It's also quite possible, and very likely, that many players never made their TNO learn his true name, because who carries that obviously useless golden globe around forever and ever (unless one is a pack rat like me who always carries around things that had no use yet)?

 

The name is not a central plot point, much like the nature of Luke's mother wasn't in the original trilogy. The original trilogy was fine without telling us how Anakin became Vader (we're left with a vague idea) and who Luke's mother was (no information at all). PS:T is fine without us knowing what the first incarnation's crimes truly were (we're left with a vague idea) and without us knowing his real name (no information at all).

 

[HoonDing]

It had girl with big b00bies and a tail. Try doing that now in a game outside of Japan.

 

Well, maybe BioWare's next game.

[majestic]

It had girl with big b00bies and a tail. Try doing that now in a game outside of Japan.

 

Well, maybe BioWare's next game.

 

We already have Cassandra. There were some outraged teenage boys who argued that she has some additional southern landmass. *wink* *wink*

[Gromnir]

 

being able to imagine countless nameless one lives is not leaving questions unanswered, but we will put it in nerdish: leave question o' luke skywalker parentage unanswered woulda' been better? 

 

That is a strange analogy.

 

 

When we look at A New Hope we learn very early who Luke's father was: Anakin Skywalker, betrayed and killed by Obi-Wan's failed apprentice Darth Vader. The Empire Strikes Back and Return Of The Jedi retconned that into meaning that Anakin Skywalker was seduced by the dark side and that this "killed" Anakin Skywalker, cue stuff about a certain point of view.

 

Looking at PS:T the two truly major questions that remain are:

 

• TNO's name, which he can learn if you carry the dead sensory stone to the very end of the game and
• the exact nature of his crime(s) which consigned him to eternal damnation on the Lower Planes

 

If you want to liken this to Star Wars it would be much more appropriate to say that, like the Original Incarnation's crimes, we never learn the exact reason why Anakin fell and became Darth Vader - and we do not need to know because the original trilogy simply was not about the how and why Anakin fell, much like PS:T isn't about the exact crimes behind the reason why TNO's first incarnation went to bargain for immortality with Ravel.

 

We know why he did it. Because he was destined for (A)D&D's very literal hell. He did it because he needed more time to right the wrongs he commited and because he deeply regretted them. We know Anakin was seduced by the dark side. Is is story truly better served by knowing it happened beacuse he was a whiny little prick who knocked up Padme because the both of them were too dumb to use birth control while having a secret relationship that could undo both their carreers?

 

For 28 years we did not know the real reason behind his fall - now we do, and many, me included, wish we could go back to not knowing.

 

As for TNO's name, well, sorry, sure it is an interesting question but it is really only related to the power of (true) names written into the setting itself. The story is completely fine without it, and It's also quite possible, and very likely, that many players never made their TNO learn his true name, because who carries that obviously useless golden globe around forever and ever (unless one is a pack rat like me who always carries around things that had no use yet)?

 

The name is not a central plot point, much like the nature of Luke's mother wasn't in the original trilogy. The original trilogy was fine without telling us how Anakin became Vader (we're left with a vague idea) and who Luke's mother was (no information at all). PS:T is fine without us knowing what the first incarnation's crimes truly were (we're left with a vague idea) and without us knowing his real name (no information at all).

 

 

 

am not gonna spoil, but we will observe that chrisA disagrees with you on at least one point: you never learn tno true name.  learn a name, not necessarily the name... or so claimed chrisA.

 

and am thinking that most would agree that the most powerful moment o' any star wars movie is the revelation o' vader being luke's dad.  had been hints dropped for a couple movies, questions, and we finally get answer.

 

 

but lord knows we ain't gonna nerd duel over what folks think is questions o' ps:t or star wars. regardless o' your personal answers, the notion that good writing leaves more unanswered questions is bass akwards-- is complete untenable.  

 

now perhaps you don't agree that ps:t had any unanswered questions o' import.  fine.  am not gonna try and change your mind. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 22, 2015 by Gromnir

[majestic]

 

 

am not gonna spoil, but we will observe that chrisA disagrees with you on at least one point: you never learn tno true name.  learn a name, not necessarily the name... or so claimed chrisA.

 

and am thinking that most would agree that the most powerful moment o' any star wars movie is the revelation o' vader being luke's dad.  had been hints dropped for a couple movies, questions, and we finally get answer.

 

 

but lord knows we ain't gonna nerd duel over what folks think is questions o' ps:t or star wars. regardless o' your personal answers, the notion that good writing leaves more unanswered questions is bass akwards-- is complete untenable.  

 

now perhaps you don't agree that ps:t had any unanswered questions o' import.  fine.  am not gonna try and change your mind. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

Now I'm curious, what did MCA say exactly about TNO's name other than that it most certianly isn't Zerthimon, which used to be a pretty popular theory a long long time ago? Sure we don't learn TNO's name, but TNO does. Whether it is his true name or not depends on what "true" names are or aren't on Planescape.

 

 

I'm not really chiming in on the side of leaving too many questions unanswered. Too many and everything becomes strange, for instance, a while ago when Satellite Reign came out I felt cheated by the ending. It just happens without any prior hints or explanations which I though was really bad. I just disagreed with the nerd-analogy and how important the open questions of  PS:T really are in the context of the story it tries to tell.

[Zoraptor]

It's a bit of a balance certainly. You don't want to leave the big questions unanswered but at the same time the desire to actually ask additional questions or ponder the (answered) questions further is a critical component in a good/ compelling story- if you finish a PST type story not wanting to ask any questions about it and not thinking about it then the story has generally failed because it hasn't left you wanting more.

 

 

I'd actually say that PST tends to side step the 'fundamental' questions it asks anyway. Who were you? Not really important, since that is who you were, as illustrated by the three archetype versions you encounter who you are different to. What did you do that was so bad? Long time ago by a different person, and tearing the planes apart with the consequences of your immortality can scarcely be better. The really fundamental question at the heart of the game is 'What can change the nature of a man?' which has no external or objective answer, the only answer you can give is your answer, ie the answer is fundamentally subjective and will not only vary from player to player, but often from playthrough to playthrough as time passes and your opinions shift. That's one of if not the main tenet of asking a philosophical question, that it should not be answerable in any absolute sense.

 

 

If I were to use something from Kotor2 to illustrate a 'good' unanswered question I'd use the Kreia/ Handmaiden relationship. You're clearly intended, if you pay attention, to think that Kreia may be her mother but there's too little information to be sure either way. That isn't due to cut content (well, so far as anyone can tell) but is deliberately crafted to be almost easter egg like with consequences for how you view Atris and Kreia if you pick up on it. Certainly not a deep philosophical question nor one that has to be answered in order for the plot to make sense but one that adds to the world building and adds nuance to characters and situations.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

PST actually gives answer to its main question

'What can change the nature of a man?'

But as it is question with now definite answer and it is roleplay game so it can use and uses quite well it own nature to answer that question. Answer that every player finds is not the only answer the question but one of the many and it is some what personal to each player as their playthroughs as whole are actually the answers that game gives to its fundamental question. It is one of the things that make PST as great game as it is. Because it lets player be the writer for its main question, it is not approach that fits in all games and story telling, but in RPGs it is approach that works because RPGs should be games where player tells the story in more or less restricted way (of course as they are games they still need to have rules and goals to actually do that game part and not only story telling/roleplay part).

 

So I would say that thing that makes PST great RPG is the way how it lets player to answer to the question that game rises. And it think it fails some what with those questions that player can't answer in the game. As in my opinion it is essential that all the answer that player can give/find to the questions can be given/found in the game itself.

[Gromnir]

 Certainly not a deep philosophical question nor one that has to be answered in order for the plot to make sense but one that adds to the world building and adds nuance to characters and situations.

showing confusion.  is not the deep philosophical questions that is being addressed.  reach answers to the philosophical questions should be personal but is sadly less personal given all the silly exposition and bad writing in ps:t.  thematic questions shouldn't be answered direct with crude exposition that were all too common in ps:t. we has noted such multiple times. converse, chekhov shows a loaded gun in act 1 o' o' the seagull and we can expect to discover why... but again, this should be axiomatic.  nonek examples were not regarding symbolism or theme or extended metaphor.

 

nevertheless, unanswered questions don't doom a story, particular one original intended to have expansions and sequels.  in spite of the "rule" that all questions should be answered, most writers make exceptions, but such stuff is exceptions.   "The mark of a great game, it births more questions than it answers." is nonsense.  is bass ackwards.  is bad writing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Aoyagi]

I found myself in agreement until I arrived at the obligatory Mass Effect part. ME2 over ME1? Nooooo....

[Gorth]

"Lords of Midnight" being absent from this list automatically disqualifies the author from having any credibility

 

Ultima IV was also conspicuously absent

 

Otherwise, most of my favourites seemed to be on the list. Well, those games I've spent 200+ hours on anyway. Of course the list also had games which I barely touched and tossed aside again.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It probably is. It certainly has the best story and the best characters, although as a game, Baldur's Gate II is much better.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The question of PST was repeated many times: What can change the nature of a man? and the answer is within the player's motivations and choices.

 

Admittedly its a bit of a fail since TNO changes all the time, and the PC is left to atone for the choices that someone else made forging his own, new identity in the process and not actually changing anything from the original who is for all intents and purposes dead and gone. Perhaps at the end when he's complete we can speak of change, but by that point there are no meaningful choices or radical shifts to be made from what I recall. 

[FlintlockJazz]

I found myself in agreement until I arrived at the obligatory Mass Effect part. ME2 over ME1? Nooooo....

I have to say that in fundamental gameplay terms then yes, ME2 was better over ME1.  If ME1 had been structured more like Deus Ex, providing alternate methods to accomplish your goals depending on the skills you had taken, then the gameplay mechanics it used would have worked, but regardless of your build all encounters in ME1 boiled down to Space Marining it.  There were no stealth paths, there was a single case of high technical skill allowing you to kill some aliens in an airlock and that's it, everything else was a case of shooting stuff with your guns, most of which you couldn't use because you didn't have the skills available to use them for most classes yet you still lugged them around for no reason, or using either biotic or tech skills to kill people, the difference between them being pretty much aesthetics and which units they were best used on, while having a cover mechanic that pretty much came across as an afterthought and wasn't of any point once you levelled up enough.  Honestly, the game felt rushed and unfinished, especially with a lot of the locations. 

 

This isn't to say it was rubbish: I vastly prefer the visuals of the armours in ME1 (I have a thing for the tubes in the back of the helmets) over the Space Footballer/Standard Space Marine look of the later games, now that we have the trilogy to look at I can say that ME1 had the better and more coherent plotline of all three of them, though that doesn't say much as the writing was atrocious and full of plot holes in all three (ME2 could have been better, if ME3 hadn't pretty much made it redundant).  I'm also one of those sick bastards who loved the Mako, it's main problem was that it wasn't developed enough and needed adding to it, not stripping from the game.

 

Essentially, ME1 needed to either utilise it's system more like Deus Ex or be more like ME2 if it was gonna do the space marine thing.

Edited January 11, 2016 by FlintlockJazz

[Cyseal]

Inxile announced that the beta version of the Tides of Numenera will be available to Kickstarter backers on January 17, and will go live on Steam Early Access on January 26.

[Gromnir]

Inxile announced that the beta version of the Tides of Numenera will be available to Kickstarter backers on January 17, and will go live on Steam Early Access on January 26.

our email says beta will be available  the Week of january 17.  has there been confirmation o' january 17 elsewheres?

 

HA! Good Fun!