Obsidian should rework the classes for POE2

[yoomazir]

So I've been playing the game for the past week, trying all the classes to see which one suits me more and, somehow, I kind of find the lackluster.

Sure, all of them have different abilities and stuff, but I kind of find annoying that all of them can use any kind of weapon or armor, whatever suits the player. I understand that it allows players to create whatever they want, but from a lore perspective, I don't know, it kinda makes no sense.

 

For example, if you are a monk you should be locked to a specific set of weapons & armors that could vary depending on which martial school you would choose when you create your character, things like that.

 

Remember this artwork?

 

 

See the lady in heavy armor and a musket? I was so excited about it, I thought, damn this must be like a member of a specific army/kindgom who has been trained like that... The monk, naked & tatoos & s**t, cool so the class is supposed to be played like that! Well guess what, it doesn't matter, you just have to use whatever most op weapon/armor is available and go for it...

 

I like classes, but I like them even more when they are well defined in their playstyle.

 

This is btw a minor complain, so far I am loving the game.

[Fenixp]

Classes are well-defined in their playstyles, but they're not defined by their gear. I love that about classes in PoE - they have specific mechanics and talents tied to them, but they don't limit you otherwise so you can construct any insane combination you can come up with. Just go and take a look into the character builds subforum, it might change your mind entirely - it's incredible what kind of insane stuff are people able to come up with, and a lot of it is fun and works! I honestly don't see how exactly would the game benefit from equipment restrictions.

[mosspit]

Well for me, I think the class system got to be designed with dual or multi-class in mind. So that the integration can be done better.

[Boeroer]

How boring it would be if the classes were so restricted. I would have stopped playing after my second playthrough. But since you can experiment a lot with classes and equipment it can be fun to invent new builds and test how they perform.

[PrimeJunta]

@OP I strongly disagree. I think it's extremely cool that you can experiment with weird builds like greatsword-wielding monks and full plate wizards, and the mechanics are flexible enough that you can actually make it work. It doesn't make the classes same-y at all.

 

Pillars has its fault, but class differentiation isn't one of them. Considering that there are so many, it's amazing that they all provide such different experiences. It does a far better job than (A)D&D artificially differentiating between, say, fighters and rangers, or fighters and barbarians, with arbitrary equipment restrictions.

Edited December 16, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Tigranes]

The ability to customise classes the way you want, and to come up with a variety of weird builds, was a key selling point for POE. I don't see it changing too much in the future. A lot of people hate classes for the reason that they reduce replayability and variation.

 

There's no reason not to tweak it a bit, though, to try and increase their distinctiveness. Cipher or Chanter is already pretty distinct, but...

[yoomazir]

@OP I strongly disagree. I think it's extremely cool that you can experiment with weird builds like greatsword-wielding monks and full plate wizards, and the mechanics are flexible enough that you can actually make it work. It doesn't make the classes same-y at all.

 

Pillars has its fault, but class differentiation isn't one of them. Considering that there are so many, it's amazing that they all provide such different experiences. It does a far better job than (A)D&D artificially differentiating between, say, fighters and rangers, or fighters and barbarians, with arbitrary equipment restrictions.

 

But then why make classes to begin with if the player base want to mess around with the skills? Just open up all of the skills from the get go.

 

Guys, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I like some coherency in general, I mean, when you are part of a faction, you are usually trained in a certain way ad then you may specialize in something more specific, if I was part of a paladin faction that trains their members in a sword & shield style, I would be very surprised to see my character naked with a spear/bow/whip screaming shamanic incantations @ lvl 2, it's not about roleplaying, it's about consistency in your world & lore that is present in the game.

 

Now that being said, I totally understand if the playerbase just doesn't give a fudge about it and just want to mess around with the skills and stuff, another PoE (Path of Exile) did the same and players seemed to have fun with it, but for Pillars I wish the sequel makes the classes a little bit more unique in their way.

Edited December 16, 2015 by yoomazir

[PrimeJunta]

A classless system would be cool too. Personally I prefer them.

 

But I do like a class-based system which lets you use it creatively, while at the same time maintaining class differentiation. The D&D3 system had scope for this with multi-classing, although it did diluted most of that with entirely arbitrary "hard" limits for prestige classes (which I cheerfully bent in the campaigns I ran). Pillars goes one better: it manages to keep the classes unique (for the most part) without arbitrary, game-y restrictions.

 

I'm not a big fan of AD&D classes which really are straitjackets -- other than the completely nutty dual-classing rules, once you've picked a class (or multiclass combo), it's entirely on rails, except that you get to put a pip in a proficiency once every several levels.

 

As to the consistency argument, they explicitly stated that paladin orders and monk orders in Eora aren't like in Faerun. Paladins channel the power of their souls into martial prowess through the strength of their convictions. That's it. They don't specify a particular fighting style for a particular order: they specify the ethos. There's nothing lore-inconsistent that I can see about a Goldpact Knight who fights naked with a spear and shield.

 

(What's more, if you want to roleplay, there's plenty of room for that too, it's just not imposed you by the designers. If I roll up a character with an Old Vailian background, I usually make him or her an Ocean Folk human and murder a backer NPC for one of those nice Vailian costumes as a matter of fact. Plus a hat of course. The hats are rad.)

[AndreaColombo]

If you want to play classes in their archetypical attire, you can. The flexibility in PoE does in no way hinder the traditional setups and, tbh, most of the enemies you face are actually robed wizards, naked-torso monks, and heavy-armored fighters or paladins. The game doesn't go out of its way to promote weird builds; it just enables them.

 

Personally, I think character building is one of this game's strongest points.

[Fenixp]

But then why make classes to begin with if the player base want to mess around with the skills? Just open up all of the skills from the get go.

Because every class has a unique mechanic or a set of mechanics which makes them special. Pillars of Eternity doesn't need restrictions on weapons and armor because classes are sufficiently varied even without these restrictions - a wizard in full plate plays very differently to a warrior in full plate.

 

The reason why weapon restrictions are imposed on classes in other RPGs in the first place is so that these classes feel different. Since classes in Pillars are differenciated on a much lower level, they no longer need equipment restrictions. I mean, go ahead, create your own party consisting of a rogue, wizard, druid, monk, cipher and a chanter. Give them all the same equipment - full plate, pistols, two-handed swords. And tell me they all feel the same after playing them for some time.

[Sedrefilos]

Classes not retsricted to specific weapons/armour is one of the best things in Pillars. About time to make away with this nonsensical old-school trope. After all, many games have done it too.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[yoomazir]

 

But then why make classes to begin with if the player base want to mess around with the skills? Just open up all of the skills from the get go.

Because every class has a unique mechanic or a set of mechanics which makes them special. Pillars of Eternity doesn't need restrictions on weapons and armor because classes are sufficiently varied even without these restrictions - a wizard in full plate plays very differently to a warrior in full plate.

 

The reason why weapon restrictions are imposed on classes in other RPGs in the first place is so that these classes feel different. Since classes in Pillars are differenciated on a much lower level, they no longer need equipment restrictions. I mean, go ahead, create your own party consisting of a rogue, wizard, druid, monk, cipher and a chanter. Give them all the same equipment - full plate, pistols, two-handed swords. And tell me they all feel the same after playing them for some time.

 

I would say some would be crappier than others, so why allow them to use all weapon types?

 

Kinda reminds of Borderlands, among other games, you have rocket launchers as a weapon type, all classes could use them even if looking wise it didn't made much sense (skinny guy & girl running around with a 50+ kg weapon? Uh, okay...) but at least one particular class had a tree that benefited using them, there was a reason and it made sense and nobody complained about the "lack" of disversity. The same could go with PoE, ou don't want weapon or armor restrictions? Okay, but are you gonna tell me no class should benefit from a specific set of weapons/armors, come on.

 

No bonus/malus on gear for all classes? No need for classes then, just go full Dark Souls style (be a magic user walking in full heavy armor and shooting lightning bolts with a wand), but for a game like POE I feel this isn't the way to go.

[Elerond]

I agree with topic, they could change system to classless. Which won't happen.

I disagree with OP, game don't need more restrictions in character builds, but oppose instead in my opinion.

[Zenbane]

After reading the first post in this thread, I thought that this was just going to be a drawn out request to give players the Fantasy version of Lara Croft as payment for teasing fans with a "lady in heavy armor and a musket" drawing, but then I read this...

 

But then why make classes to begin with if the player base want to mess around with the skills? Just open up all of the skills from the get go.

 

Well that is an incredibly impressive logical leap. There is a word that helps resolve any confusion with customization, and that word is, "baseline."

 

 

baseline:
a minimum or starting point used for comparisons.

 

The mere existence of comparisons in no way implies a need to remove the starting point for those comparisons; which is what the OP is suggesting.

 

For example, if we weren't talking about video game characters and instead talking about household pets - lol - then the logic in this request would be as follows:

 

1) We have customized breeds of dogs.

2) We have customized breeds of cats.

3) Why have categories of living organisms to begin with if we can customize a breed?

 

A famous quote comes to mind, "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

 

Case in point, we have classes in order to create a baseline for behavior and attributes; outside of that baseline, an impressive array of options become available. The options for character building reside on top of this baseline, and the existence of those options does not imply the need to remove that baseline.

 

PoE shines in its ability to provide quality customization options coupled with a very distinctive, fun, innovative set of class baselines. Wanting this to change is one thing; but suggesting that a removal of the baseline is inherent due to the existence of the options is something entirely different, and whacka-doodly.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Zenbane

[Fenixp]

I would say some would be crappier than others, so why allow them to use all weapon types?

Depends on your build, that's the point.

 

just go full Dark Souls style (be a magic user walking in full heavy armor and shooting lightning bolts with a wand), but for a game like POE I feel this isn't the way to go.

Why do you keep ignoring that all classes have completely unique mechanics which will only ever work with those classes? I said it twice already and each time you have jumped straight back to "But weapons!" I get it, you want weapons restricted, but that's not necessarily an argument for a classless system for a game which already has classes differenciated.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Classes could use a rework certainly, and classless would be much better, but dumb restrictions like no armor on mages or monks only using one-handed weapons is pretty dumb. Personally I'd say PoE needs to remove class determined accuracy, defenses, and HP as well as revamp class abilities to allow more intraclass customization.

[yoomazir]

After reading the first post in this thread, I thought that this was just going to be a drawn out request to give players the Fantasy version of Lara Croft as payment for teasing fans with a "lady in heavy armor and a musket" drawing, but then I read this...

 

But then why make classes to begin with if the player base want to mess around with the skills? Just open up all of the skills from the get go.

 

Well that is an incredibly impressive logical leap. There is a word that helps resolve any confusion with customization, and that word is, "baseline."

 

 

baseline:

a minimum or starting point used for comparisons.

 

The mere existence of comparisons in no way implies a need to remove the starting point for those comparisons; which is what the OP is suggesting.

 

For example, if we weren't talking about video game characters and instead talking about household pets - lol - then the logic in this request would be as follows:

 

1) We have customized breeds of dogs.

2) We have customized breeds of cats.

3) Why have categories of living organisms to begin with if we can customize a breed?

 

A famous quote comes to mind, "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!"

 

Case in point, we have classes in order to create a baseline for behavior and attributes; outside of that baseline, an impressive array of options become available. The options for character building reside on top of this baseline, and the existence of those options does not imply the need to remove that baseline.

 

PoE shines in its ability to provide quality customization options coupled with a very distinctive, fun, innovative set of class baselines. Wanting this to change is one thing; but suggesting that a removal of the baseline is inherent due to the existence of the options is something entirely different, and whacka-doodly.

Let me understand something, your baseline quote suggest a minimum or starting points for comparison, then you say that I'm suggesting a removal the "baseline", because the comparison between classes as of right now seems minimal to me my suggestion would be the contrary: adding more points to each class to compare them.

 

Also about all that nonsensical breeding crap: can you breed a dog into a cat and vice versa? Now ask that same question about a monk and a paladin in this game, sure they will be differences but both of them can use heavy armor & blades, and perform equally with them (not sure about that tbh, like I said, started playing the game like a week ago).

 

Coherency, yes, even in a computer fantasy game.

 

Anyway back to clearing dat Raedric dungeon.

Edited December 16, 2015 by yoomazir

[Vorad]

The only thing which is a bit annoying is that for spellcasters the talents are horrible. The classes themselves are really well made(and strong) but the talents are below average quality, not a single interesting talent for wizards/priests as for druid the class talent available is sub-par since shapeshifting in lategame isn't a big deal. They don't need to make them more powerful(or nerf them depending on viewpoint) they just need to add more interesting talents. Other than that the system is perfectly fine.

[Guest BugsVendor]

To people saying that all classes using all weapons add to replayabilty - how do you figure ?

 

I'd say it's exactly the other way around. You want to replay with different classes / using different gear that you missed out, having different conversations and such. So if you are locked out of some stuff on one playthru there will be something left for you in the next one that you haven't yet experienced. This was very much the case say in baldurs 2.

 

But anyway, back to the whole subject,

 

the reason behind the traditional classes is you could say it comes with the genre. I certainly expected that and enjoyed that part of the game. I also preferred when weapons were tied to the classes. It helped with role-playing as of-course it's not like, in the game world, mages just cant touch shields and swords but it rather reflects their preference and style. So if you choose a mage it sort of goes with the packet.

 

It's not terribly bad that you can (use all weapons)... If they would spent more time developing the idea they'd probably come up with some more clever system where there would be more pros and cons of using certain gear with certain classes. Didn't it bother you one bit that most of the trash mobs even on potd would die from 1 tanks and 5 crossbows or guns and such? that's how most fights look like and it just takes the individuality away from your party.

 

In the older IE games you had "bow guy", "sword guy", "shield dude", and I was almost happy for the character to give him that upgrade. This part is so missing in this game. 

 

There are some cool "clasless" systems, fallout 1&2 comes to mind. In this case however I think it works well, as the game is party based and it again reflects individuality of party members and other characters in the world.

 

Just to conclude I'd say that any good system will work. Poe is lacking in this little nuances in my opinion.

[evilcat]

Casters have good talents: Extra level 1 spell, extra level 2 spell... they do not need more.

 

As for OP... no. PoE is not another DnD clone, and keep it that way. Being in theory able to use an weapon is good, since everbody have own sense of what is right.

You need some really twisted and arbitrary logic to prove that Monks cant dual wield axes because... reasons.

 

Having possibly open system solves itself. Since everyone have some prefered build in mind, so just can execute it. The more limitacion, the less possible builds, less likely everyone will find something interesting for him/her.

 

Dev time is limited resource, Obsidian cant just make 5 talents for each of of 8 Monk Orders (or whatevers) since some players just do not care about monks at all, and would prefer having 2 extra talents for each of main classes.

Edited December 16, 2015 by evilcat

[Fenixp]

To people saying that all classes using all weapons add to replayabilty - how do you figure ?

You can combine various classes, talents and equipment. You still get a lot of weapon specialization, you just get to choose which weapons do you specialize in instead of the game dictating this for you. Various combinations of statistics, talents and skills will work differently with various weapon classes. It's a system massively open to experimentation and given low amount of classes, the game would not benefit in any way from weapon restrictions - on the contrary, instead of playing 5 different kinds of rogues which play very differently you would only get to play, say, 2.

 

The reason why it sort of worked in IE games is that they've had a ton of classes, but replayability within the individual classes was very low.

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

To people saying that all classes using all weapons add to replayabilty - how do you figure ?

You can combine various classes, talents and equipment. You still get a lot of weapon specialization, you just get to choose which weapons do you specialize in instead of the game dictating this for you. Various combinations of statistics, talents and skills will work differently with various weapon classes. It's a system massively open to experimentation and given low amount of classes, the game would not benefit in any way from weapon restrictions - on the contrary, instead of playing 5 different kinds of rogues which play very differently you would only get to play, say, 2.

 

The reason why it sort of worked in IE games is that they've had a ton of classes, but replayability within the individual classes was very low.

 

 

I understand there are more possible combinations of all these. But to me it doesn't matter because most of are meaningless. Sure you can make a party of 6 naked dwarfs with only daggers equipped but it won't add to the overall number of possible playthrus.

 

There were fewer combinations in the older games but very much viable. Take weapons for some classes only. You find some super duper sword but it's only for a paladin, so you remember to pick it up on your next playthru.

 

One of the main complains in the new "diablo" was that with the skill reset replayabilty goes way down. As you will always have only one barbarian or w/e. You played it once you played it all. As in diablo 2 you'd "lock yourself out" of most of the abilities and you could try them on some other playthru.

[yoomazir]

Casters have good talents: Extra level 1 spell, extra level 2 spell... they do not need more.

 

As for OP... no. PoE is not another DnD clone, and keep it that way. Being in theory able to use an weapon is good, since everbody have own sense of what is right.

You need some really twisted and arbitrary logic to prove that Monks cant dual wield axes because... reasons.

Saying that monks shouldn't be able to dual wield axes is arbitrary logic, could you then tell me the non arbitrary logic for them to dual wield said axes? Because... reasons, yeah?

 

I'm just saying, if you are part of a faction, order, military group or whatever, usually they are trained in certain ways, if you come from a certain school you come with a somehow defined setting, to see them said setting be easely swapped because... reasons is kinda mindblowing "oh hey I trained for 20 years in a Shaolin kung fu temple but when I hit lvl 2 I'll go full dual wielding Uzis in full postman outfit while my special ops partner will swap to jazz teachings in a white tutu, our background story and lore? Pshe, who needs them anyway".

 

If the mechanics and gameplay don't match the lore, then why even bother creating it? Just do a endless dungeon game and let the players mess around.

Edited December 16, 2015 by yoomazir

[Tigranes]

Actually, 6 naked dwarves with daggers sounds fun. You can probably do pretty good monks and rogues with that, as well as passable mages and ciphers. Monks' ability to combine many of their talents with weapons (and not just unarmed), mages and ciphers' ability to use weapon attacks in tandem with their magical abilities, etc. allow for such a crazy party to be more interesting than, say, trying to be a naked dwarf mage with a dagger in DAO. 

[Tigranes]

 

Casters have good talents: Extra level 1 spell, extra level 2 spell... they do not need more.

 

As for OP... no. PoE is not another DnD clone, and keep it that way. Being in theory able to use an weapon is good, since everbody have own sense of what is right.

You need some really twisted and arbitrary logic to prove that Monks cant dual wield axes because... reasons.

Saying that monks shouldn't be able to dual wield axes is arbitrary logic, could you tell me the non arbitrary logic for them to dual wield said axes? Because... reasons, yeah?

 

I'm just saying, if you are part of a faction, order, military group or whatever, usually they are trained in certain ways, if you come from a certain school you come with a somehow defined setting, to see them said setting be easely swapped because... reasons is kinda mindblowing "oh hey I trained for 20 years in a Shaolin kung fu temple but when I hit lvl 2 I'll go full dual wielding Uzis in full postman outfit while my special ops partner will swap to jazz teachings in a white tutu, our background story and lore? Pshe, who needs them anyway".

 

 

POE lore doesn't have ciphers as coming from Cipher School or from a specific region, etc., and the setting easily supports an Old Vailian cipher who learned to use guns vs. a wilderness cipher who got by with a hatchet.