The current refugee wave in Europe

[BruceVC]

 

 

Here's a counterpoint:

 

A fair point, but also too dramatic with the spilling over of course, especially seeing as birth rates are dropping across the world.

http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2014/2014-world-population-data-sheet/data-sheet.aspx

And as you can see, basically we just need to help Africa now with literacy and development now.

 

 

No need for hyperbole, no need for exaggerations, lets take this discussion at face value - there is no "crisis", but we certainly benefit a lot more by helping nations help themselves. Especially because he's right in the fact that its basically the better offs that leave, which is a huge problem for the country they flee from.

 

 

Don't mind the gumballs falling all over the place, you only make it a dramatic effect if you wish so. About African refugees, what i don't get is despite less child birth, a significant rise in standard of living, the amount of refugees increase every year. Maybe Ghadaffi was right after all, he was the wall protecting Europe :-/

 

Back to the refugees in europe, there's been a huge influx of somalis and iraqis at the border between Finland and Sweden in Lapland of all places. Authorities are of course completely confused and do not know what to do with them. So much for those Syrians.

 

Here's a perspective of an ex-pat Syrian:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFnvFbThDE

 

That picture of the dead Syrian child upset me  a little but then I moved on but it really resonated with media in South Africa and suddenly everyone was talking about it ....and I wondered why I am not concerned with the Syrian war and then I realised why. I travel to the ME for work, I follow events there and I have friends living there. So at the moment these are the conflicts in the ME that influence the world in different way 

 

• The interminable Israel vs Palestinians conflict :  Not much to say on this depressing conflict   
• The Libya Civil War :  First it was just an internal tribal war now ISIS is involved ..
• Egypt :  Its now run by a military junta ....and funny enough the people seem fine with this. But there have been terrorist attacks and a very draconian implementation of the law. Also they bombed ISIS in Libya
• Yemen: The Iranians and Saudis are involved in some inexplicable  Proxy war, why is Yemen so important to them,  and the place is awash with Al-Qaeda sympathizers
• Iraq : Ouch... a real mess. You have tribal Sunni not aligned to the current government. ISIS running wild, a basically separatist Kurd region and an ineffective and corrupt military
• Syria: Not much to say except I hope military intervention isnt vetoed by members of the UNSC like Russia and China
• Lebanon : A strange failure to remove garbage in Beirut eventually led to fighting in the streets and a complete shutdown of the government
• Iran:  Arguably the most powerful Arab military country they are  a very important player with serious influence over  Iraq, Syria and groups like Hezbollah...thanks goodness for the negotiations

What more you say? Surly you jest ...nope so against all those real conflict we have 

• Refugees from Libya, Syria, Yemen and other places all over the place...destitute and desperate
• Turkey is also fighting ISIS and fighting its own Kurds
• Al-Qaeda still sets off bombs in market places and attacks Mosques

 

So yeah I'm decentralized to horrendous violence in the ME  

Edited September 10, 2015 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

[BruceVC]

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

You know we cant do that

 

I see all this turmoil as part of the overall Arab Spring so this is a form of catharsis. The ME should become stronger after this....mmmm I'm not sure if I believe this but it seems the right thing to say  

[213374U]

n/m poor impulse control

Edited September 10, 2015 by 213374U

[Bartimaeus]

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

China would beg to differ...

[BruceVC]

n/m poor impulse control

Yeah I tend to agree, people are frustrated ...we should let them vent 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Nah, can't call anything in NA a backwater, that's reserved for places with more non-whites But seriously, Canada decided to try to be tough and bombed Libya and Syria, so yep, we have to take some. Harper's under some pressure to take them in, though some of it is emotional pleas to just take as many as we can because they are humans, are suffering, etc. etc., and his pushback is that we need to ensure we don't take in terrorists or wannabe jihadis. Sounds alright, but that's more a plea to his base a chunk of which undoubtedly see them as invading ragheads, heh.

 

Hopefully they ship them someplace other than Toronto, this place is too crowded as is

 

First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism 

 

It is actually Muslim majority countries that currently do most for the Syria crises and West actually does quite little.  As currently Muslim majority countries give most aid for Syrian, they do most of the air strikes against ISIL, they take most of the refugees and they take most of the economical hits that said crises cause. 

 

But currently everybody look after their own interest instead actually trying to find real solutions to the crises and probably hoping that crises fill burn themselves out without need of much of actual effort, but currently it seems that those hopes will not come true anytime soon and especially so that those crises don't create new crises closer to home.

 

I don't like disagreeing with you because we often agree on almost all SJ issues, you are a very reasonable liberal whose opinion is actually shaped on his real life experiences so I can always understand where you coming from. 

 

But I need to correct a few things about your view on this matter as I want you on my side and when I'm finished I'm sure you will agree 

 

So statistically of course some ME countries that border Syria have taken in Syrians, Turkey has 2.1 million Syrians. But here is the problem, all Syrian refugees are not integrated but kept in Refugee Camps....they are safe, have meager supplies and have some services but they can't work in the outside world or travel freely. They just stay in the camps, its not a very nice life

 

This would be considered inhumane in Western countries and not be allowed. I didn't want to mention this before because it is shameful that the Syrians are literally seen as outsiders and NO effort in these ME countries is made to integrate them. When the West integrates refugees it properly integrates them. They get housing, benefits and citizenship. So please don't think for a  second when we talk about " accepting Syrian refugees" this means the same effort and intergration for the West and ME

 

Now the aid point, people say " the Saudi give aid to Syria" ( and this applies to all countries ) but lets break this down. The Saudis do give aid to the free Syrian army fighting in Syria, they are the main ones shipping weapons and they are very involved in the war as one of the main backers of forces   opposed to Assad. I dont have an issue with this, its good that the Saudis are getting more hands on in the ME and not expecting the West to do it. But these refugees are coming out from ISIS territories. If anything the Saudis should feel responsible for this. Why cant they take in tens of thousands of Syrians, I have worked in Saudi Arabia for 3 months and trust me that country has loads of space and empty desert where they could build refugee camps 

 

Yes I agree that there is a cost to maintaining these "camps " but guess what ...do you know how much aid these ME  countries have been given by the international community? The EU has given 3.9 Billion Euro alone ...don't think for a second these ME countries don't accept aid. So I'm not sure where this economic issue is ?

 

So in summary the ME has done very little meaningful effort for the Syrians ....and there are countries that even refuse to house any Syrians. We need to get to a point where the ME must take responsibility for its own social issues ...the West can't carry the load because it creates a constant cycle of lack of responsibility

 

And Im tired of it because despite all this compromise the West is still resented and blamed 

 

 

I think your wrong mental image how majority of Syrian refugees are accommodate in EU, because they are in camps that would look similar to those in ME if there were same number of people, because currently there are no concrete plans how those people should be accommodated. Especially in Hungary and Greece's isles refugees are in quite bad conditions, which is at least one reason why they try to continue their flight towards northern Europe where they think things are better, but that is not necessary true, as refugees are mainly put in refugee centers that are currently over crowded and for example in Finland quite lot of refugees has to sleep in broom closets and similar small spaces. Which has lead to situation where private citizens offer to take refugees to live in their houses until government get their head straight with this situation and can organize more refugee centers (as I am quite sure that more refugee centers will be the solution that they come up in month or two when EU's decision of refugee divination finalizes ) 

 

So refugee camps in Turkey , Lebanon and Jordan aren't actually that much inhumane that places where we put Syrian refugees here, but we only need to deal with couple thousand and they need to deal with millions, which is absolutely more difficult problem especially for Lebanon where number of refugees is about fifth of whole population, meaning that economical and infrastructural burden they cause is absolutely massive, especially when you compare it to that fact that, EU which has over 500 million citizen and is one of the world riches area with very good infrastructure that is capable to support much higher population, has taken less refugees and people here start to claim that we don't have money to support them. 

 

To sum my point, we should not belittle efforts that Turkey, Jordan and especially Lebanon have put to help Syrian refugees and we should not give too much credit for EU doing good job with them, as EU currently really do about minimum what is demanded from them by The 1951 Refugee Convention, and quite lot of our leaders would like to find way to do less. And USA's efforts to help Syrian refugees has currently been nearly nonexistent as nation.

 

3.9 Billion (it is about how much Finland gives aid to domestic agriculture) is quite marginal sum for EU countries collectively is quite small numbers as their collective GDP is more than 15 000 billion euros, and there is currently plans (and some cases there already has been cuts) to cut from development aid. Meaning that we really don't really financially burden us really by giving money to Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan so that they would handle Syrian refugees. 

Edited September 10, 2015 by Elerond

[Malcador]

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

Might as well form a Crusade and pacify the region with fire.

[Meshugger]

 

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

Might as well form a Crusade and pacify the region with fire.

 

 

Nah, the wall is better. Maybe they will all turn into hippies whose favourite discussion is "what makes one Iraqi? What is Kuwaitiness?" and with such clever retorts such as "There no such thing as a Iranian, we're are all a nation of immigrants, anything Iranian is just some old barbarism" all while the local artist is celebrated for being so brave and insightful for his latest creation "urine-Mohammed", which is a quite large step to take from "****-Aisha". One of the first things that they will do is to make sure that all european immigrants feel welcome by banning the flag from schools, supress the celebration of the ramadan and label the opposition of such as ignorant racists that do not understand how europeans actually enrich the local culture.

 

Pay-back is a bitch, mother-****er. 

[Malcador]

Bah, for completely fantastical solutions I always go for the most violent. Efficient and quick. Is why I have this user name of sorts

[HoonDing]

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

China would beg to differ...

 

 

What's unreasonable about China? They built themselves up out of post WWII misery to a great power without exploiting, bombing or impoverishing half the planet along the way. Consequently they expect no one to go around telling them what to do in their own country, and ignore when others do. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. 

[Hurlshort]

China did a fair amount of exploitation and impoverishing, it was just all within their own borders.  Oh, and Tibet.

 

 

Although Bart is simply referring to the failures of The Great Wall. 

[HoonDing]

Ironic that the Great Wall (as ineffective as it was) was built to keep out the Mongols, who were responsible for the greatest dynasty in China's entire history.

[Woldan]

Guess its time to move into my mountain fortress to work on an emergency plan for the continuation of the human race, the lowlands are about to fall under the control of the alien invaders.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Woldan

[Malcador]

Or finally realize a business venture and utilize the influx of human resources.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Just build a wall around the whole middle east and cut all contacts and funding for 20-30 years. Whatever comes out of the gates at that time has got to be something more reasonable than what we have now.

China would beg to differ...

 

 

What's unreasonable about China? They built themselves up out of post WWII misery to a great power without exploiting, bombing or impoverishing half the planet along the way. Consequently they expect no one to go around telling them what to do in their own country, and ignore when others do. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. 

 

I admire the Chinese in certain ways, they created a growing economy ,8 % growth per year and were an export driven economy 

 

The issues with them is they are a one party state and they werent a Democracy ....this should be an issue 

 

But the real risk is that they weren't transparent in there economic data and now they are facing a real slowdown which is dragging down South Africa . They tried to artificially interfere in there stock market ..and that goes against conventional economics...and thats why they lost trillions in the stock market free fall 

 

 

So South Africa should have aligned with the West in there economic investment 

[BruceVC]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/09/politics/russia-syria-military-buildup-kerry-lavrov/index.html

 

 

So this type of thing really annoys me ....surly the Russians can't think that by helping Assad it will change anything? Also there will be more refugees now but guess this doesn't bother the Russians as they don't have to deal with them

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If you don't mind me asking why are you guys so anti-Western? I have no issue with your view in the sense you are perfectly entitled to your own views....I dont need to try to convince you why Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life .

 

I am just interested, in my own country I face anti-Western sentiment all the time on these radio talk shows I listen to and frequent 

 

But it generally comes from 2 main groups

• A section of the Muslim community ...they are Sunni but obviously due to Apartheid they have even more conservative views that I find absurd and at times insulting.
• Sections of the black South African community but I dont blame them as they are not very well informed about global events. So there dislike is normally really illogical and is based on weird anachronistic views of Colonialism and they are very sensitive to any comparisons to the West. But I have learnt how to make a point to  them that doesn't get misunderstood    . And then there are a small number of white South Africans who are anti-Western...I know its a disgrace. But never doubt how far a human being can fall....they just annoy me and I correct them when I can

 

So what are your reasons? Drowsy is Serbian so I get that but no idea what motivates you guy around your views 

 

I'm not anti-west, I'm anti-State. At this particularly moment in history, and that which is most relevant to my life directly, certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life and the broader world. Had I lived at a different point in history, or even geographically in the present, the particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different.

 

The "Social Contract" is a farce and a myth. The State is an abomination which by definition exists through monopolizing the crimes it allegedly was spawned to eradicate. Whether it be the USSA, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Syria, Lybia, Russia, China, etc., I have no love for their respective governments. This is not to say I loathe the captive populations in those countries. Quite the contrary, I am very well traveled and revel in cultural exchange.

[BruceVC]

 

If you don't mind me asking why are you guys so anti-Western? I have no issue with your view in the sense you are perfectly entitled to your own views....I dont need to try to convince you why Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life .

 

I am just interested, in my own country I face anti-Western sentiment all the time on these radio talk shows I listen to and frequent 

 

But it generally comes from 2 main groups

• A section of the Muslim community ...they are Sunni but obviously due to Apartheid they have even more conservative views that I find absurd and at times insulting.
• Sections of the black South African community but I dont blame them as they are not very well informed about global events. So there dislike is normally really illogical and is based on weird anachronistic views of Colonialism and they are very sensitive to any comparisons to the West. But I have learnt how to make a point to  them that doesn't get misunderstood    . And then there are a small number of white South Africans who are anti-Western...I know its a disgrace. But never doubt how far a human being can fall....they just annoy me and I correct them when I can

 

So what are your reasons? Drowsy is Serbian so I get that but no idea what motivates you guy around your views 

 

I'm not anti-west, I'm anti-State. At this particularly moment in history, and that which is most relevant to my life directly, certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life and the broader world. Had I lived at a different point in history, or even geographically in the present, the particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different.

 

 

Can you explain what you mean by giving examples, I dont understand your point ?

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

 

 

If you don't mind me asking why are you guys so anti-Western? I have no issue with your view in the sense you are perfectly entitled to your own views....I dont need to try to convince you why Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life .

 

I am just interested, in my own country I face anti-Western sentiment all the time on these radio talk shows I listen to and frequent 

 

But it generally comes from 2 main groups

• A section of the Muslim community ...they are Sunni but obviously due to Apartheid they have even more conservative views that I find absurd and at times insulting.
• Sections of the black South African community but I dont blame them as they are not very well informed about global events. So there dislike is normally really illogical and is based on weird anachronistic views of Colonialism and they are very sensitive to any comparisons to the West. But I have learnt how to make a point to  them that doesn't get misunderstood    . And then there are a small number of white South Africans who are anti-Western...I know its a disgrace. But never doubt how far a human being can fall....they just annoy me and I correct them when I can

 

So what are your reasons? Drowsy is Serbian so I get that but no idea what motivates you guy around your views 

 

I'm not anti-west, I'm anti-State. At this particularly moment in history, and that which is most relevant to my life directly, certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life and the broader world. Had I lived at a different point in history, or even geographically in the present, the particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain what you mean by giving examples, I dont understand your point ?

 

You asked me an the other person why we were anti-western. I corrected your assumption being that I'm not anti-western, but in opposition to the institution of compulsory governance, known as The State. I'm not sure what there is to explain.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

If you don't mind me asking why are you guys so anti-Western? I have no issue with your view in the sense you are perfectly entitled to your own views....I dont need to try to convince you why Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life .

 

I am just interested, in my own country I face anti-Western sentiment all the time on these radio talk shows I listen to and frequent 

 

But it generally comes from 2 main groups

• A section of the Muslim community ...they are Sunni but obviously due to Apartheid they have even more conservative views that I find absurd and at times insulting.
• Sections of the black South African community but I dont blame them as they are not very well informed about global events. So there dislike is normally really illogical and is based on weird anachronistic views of Colonialism and they are very sensitive to any comparisons to the West. But I have learnt how to make a point to  them that doesn't get misunderstood    . And then there are a small number of white South Africans who are anti-Western...I know its a disgrace. But never doubt how far a human being can fall....they just annoy me and I correct them when I can

 

So what are your reasons? Drowsy is Serbian so I get that but no idea what motivates you guy around your views 

 

I'm not anti-west, I'm anti-State. At this particularly moment in history, and that which is most relevant to my life directly, certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life and the broader world. Had I lived at a different point in history, or even geographically in the present, the particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain what you mean by giving examples, I dont understand your point ?

 

You asked me an the other person why we were anti-western. I corrected your assumption being that I'm not anti-western, but in opposition to the institution of compulsory governance, known as The State. I'm not sure what there is to explain.

 

Okay fair enough, let me clarify.

• What do you mean by  "certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life "...what states and where do you live that you think your life is in danger
• Why do you say "  particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different" why do assume you would resent a government in another time or another place? Do you find you just generally don't trust or like governments and its natural?
   

[licketysplit]

Europe is literally planting and fertilizing social unrest. They think all these refugees are going to assimilate western ideals? More ghettos, more discord, more violence is what they're in for. Send 'em to Sweden. The self loathing Swedes can't get enough of these people. 

[BruceVC]

Europe is literally planting and fertilizing social unrest. They think all these refugees are going to assimilate western ideals? More ghettos, more discord, more violence is what they're in for. Send 'em to Sweden. The self loathing Swedes can't get enough of these people. 

 

Dude I know I shouldn't laugh but this was seriously one of the funniest posts I have ever read ...the way you describe it "  Send 'em to Sweden. The self loathing Swedes can't get enough of these " ...  is that accurate ...its very funny if true 

 

There is some logic to this as well....let the EU countries that want them absorb them. Where do you live again? Its not fair to force this type of social expectation down on countries that just dont want this type of problem or really know they can't deal with it. Think of Drowsy and Serbia ....is it really reasonable to suddenly want the Serbs to take in Muslims? It wasn't that long that numerous Serbs were indicted for war crimes in wars against Muslims 

 

And its not that I dont think Serbia couldn't  pretend to be fine with it ...but why should they have to pretend 

[BruceVC]

Europe is literally planting and fertilizing social unrest. They think all these refugees are going to assimilate western ideals? More ghettos, more discord, more violence is what they're in for. Send 'em to Sweden. The self loathing Swedes can't get enough of these people. 

 

So I'm not trying to paint an overly positive picture but I have been thinking about this and its not as bad as you think

 

So remember these are very different Muslims to what you are use to, they have lost everything....its all gone. They would have very little faith in Syria or any country in the ME. Think about it they have made a dangerous and difficult to get to the EU. I suspect they will be thankful and grateful and will want to commit to Western culture but keep there faith...nothing wrong with that. You won't see them complaining and criticizing there respective EU country

 

I may be wrong so let me know if I'm wrong