[CLASS BUILD] Lady of Pain - High-speed, heavy-armored DPS Fighter

[MaxQuest]

I thought dexterity contributed to reaching 0-recovery?

It doesn't contribute to reaching zero recovery.

If you have 30+45 frames attack+recovery durations, having 43 Dex will reduce them to 15 + 22.5 frames respectively.

Because it contributes multiplicatively (with diminishing returns) you will need to have infinity Dex to reach 0-recovery.

 

If it doesn't, what effect does Dexterity actually have on the recovery period?  Kinda confused.

StatAttackSpeedMultiplier = 1 + (Dex - 10) / 33.3

RecoveryDuration = BaseRecoveryDuration / StatAttackSpeedMultiplier

Edited June 3, 2016 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

I like to play high-DEX builds even when I reach 0 recovery because it speeds up everything else (attack animation, casting from scrolls, drinking potions), but as MaxQuest said, you'd need infinite DEX to reach 0 recovery.

 

If you reach 0 recovery by other means than DEX, then you already have 0 recovery and DEX doesn't come into it.

 

If you do not reach 0 recovery, then DEX further reduces your residual recovery as well.

[nem0]

Dex is a flat reduction in every action except the 5 sec frame delay between actions.  So you will always get a percentage based reduction in action time regardless of your recovery and attack/spell animation. The formula is 1 / (1 + (Dex-10) * .03). So if you had 30 attack frames and 45 rec with 20 Dex you would have 1 / 1.3 * 75 +5 = 62.69 frames. With 0 recovery you would have 1 / 1.3 * 30 + 5 = 28.076.  The longer your initial animation is the more flat reduction you get but it is still the same percentage wise(not counting the immutable 5 frames). Sufficient Dex to give you 6 attacks in a certain amount of time instead of 5 will be true regardless of recovery or attack speed.

[Yosharian]

So why not dumpstat Dex completely once you reach 0-recovery?  The decrease in animation periods is negligible surely compared to an extra 40% HP or something, right?

 

And I still don't understand why those two builds favour Dex so much, is it because they cannot reach 0-recovery?

 

 

Dex is a flat reduction in every action except the 5 sec frame delay between actions.  So you will always get a percentage based reduction in action time regardless of your recovery and attack/spell animation. The formula is 1 / (1 + (Dex-10) * .03). So if you had 30 attack frames and 45 rec with 20 Dex you would have 1 / 1.3 * 75 +5 = 62.69 frames. With 0 recovery you would have 1 / 1.3 * 30 + 5 = 28.076.  The longer your initial animation is the more flat reduction you get but it is still the same percentage wise(not counting the immutable 5 frames). Sufficient Dex to give you 6 attacks in a certain amount of time instead of 5 will be true regardless of recovery or attack speed.

 

 

Lmao sorry but I understood none of that

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

What MaxQuest wants to tell you is that the DEX bonus modifies your recovery after all the other modifiers get calculated. So, if you have... let's say 100 frames of recovery left (after all the speed mods from dual wielding, two weapon style and durgan stuff as well as frenzy, alacrity, armor penatly, penalties and whatnot got calculated) - and you have 10 DEX, then your recovery is 100 frames of course. But if you have 20 DEX (=30% speedup) your recovery will only be around 75 frames (see his formla). But it can never reach 0. 

 

BUT if you already reched 0 frames recovery with all those speed mods, then DEX does nothing for your recovery any more: 0 / DEX speedup mod is still 0.

 

So that's why DEX is really important for your recovery time if you have a lot of recovery left and not so important if you have already reduced it to a small amount or even zero.

With a bow like Stormcaller you can't reach 0 recovery with abilities, items and so on - so piling up DEX is the only way left to make it faster.

 

But DEX also affects attack animation and reloading. So it's very useful for somebody who wants to use guns or any slower weapon with which you can't reach zero recovery easily.

 

It's a bit counterintuitive. I would have liked it better if it would be applied like all the other speed mods.

 

Edit: My... you can't be fast enough here - and I thought I already have 0 recovery while typing... 3 PER though it seems.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

So why not dumpstat Dex completely once you reach 0-recovery?  The decrease in animation periods is negligible surely compared to an extra 40% HP or something, right?

 

And I still don't understand why those two builds favour Dex so much, is it because they cannot reach 0-recovery?

Exactly!

 

But attack animation isN#t as short as you think. If you dump DEX to 3 with 0 recovery you will still be fast but you will feel a big difference compared to higher DEX and tehrefore shorter attack animation. And also: try to cast a spell, use a slo ability, read a scroll or drink a potion with 3 DEX.

[Yosharian]

 

So why not dumpstat Dex completely once you reach 0-recovery?  The decrease in animation periods is negligible surely compared to an extra 40% HP or something, right?

 

And I still don't understand why those two builds favour Dex so much, is it because they cannot reach 0-recovery?

Exactly!

 

But attack animation isN#t as short as you think. If you dump DEX to 3 with 0 recovery you will still be fast but you will feel a big difference compared to higher DEX and tehrefore shorter attack animation. And also: try to cast a spell, use a slo ability, read a scroll or drink a potion with 3 DEX.

 

So spellcasting works differently?  It does not have a recovery period like attacks?

 

Also: the speed bonus from e.g. Deleterious Alacrity of Motion works towards removing your recovery in a different way compared to Dexterity?  What about Frenzy?  Does the 33% attack speed bonus from Frenzy also remove recovery time, or does it reduce it like Dexterity does?

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

Every weapon has it's own basic recovery duration (fast, average, slow). And spells have, too (instant, fast, average, slow spells). Dual wielding, speed enchantments and so on only affect the weapon recovery, while things like Frenzy, Alacrity, Swift Aim affect the recovery of ALL actions while things like Sure Handed Ila or Pen. Shot only affect the recovery of ranged attacks, Vulnerable Attack only melee attacks and so on. You can't reach 0 recovery for your spellcasting or potion drinking and stuff. And the spell and drinking animations can be very long, too - so DEX is a good way to speed those things up.

[Yosharian]

Ok cool but let me clear: what I am imagining is that by removing Vulnerable Attack from the build, I am only at 115% recovery, which I am wondering if I can reach when Frenzied without using Deleterious Alacrity of Motion.

 

However, I realised I don't really understand this equation:

 

Bonuses = 50% (Potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion) * 20% (Speed) * 15% (Durgan steel) * 15% (Gauntlets of Swift Action) = 138%

 

I'm trying to figure out Frenzy + Speed (Which I assume is from the Endless Paths Blade) + Durgan Steel + GoSA, since you obviously aren't adding these together (the original would make 100%, not 138%?)

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

The stuff that is in the same category (universal speed buffs/melee speed buffs/whatever speed buffs) gets multiplied, not added. That's why stacking more and more of those (if possible without supressing) is very potent. That's why speed enchantment + Durgan Steel is so good: if you bring those together they don't only add up with dual wielding, they multiply and therefore contribute even more than their flat numers say. Don't ask me waht the exact formula is - MaxQuest will know for sure. He knows everything about attack speed and recovery because he did tons of tests and also decompiled some of the game code to check the formulas out.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

The stuff that is in the same category (universal speed buffs/melee speed buffs/whatever speed buffs) gets multiplied, not added. That's why stacking more and more of those (if possible without supressing) is very potent. That's why speed enchantment + Durgan Steel is so good: if you bring those together they don't only add up with dual wielding, they multiply and therefore contribute even more than their flat numers say.

So is [Frenzy + Speed (Which I assume is from the Endless Paths Blade) + Durgan Steel + GoSA] enough to reach 0-recovery?  Assuming I am not using Vulnerable Attack but everything else from this equation (from your guide on P5):

 

Recovery = 100% + 35% (Durgan-enhanced plate) -20% (Armored Grace) +20% (Vulnerable Attack) = 135% (Should be 115% without Vulnerable Attack)

 

Bonus question: Is Penetrating Shot really worth it on your Zeblastian Hurtstacker build?

Edited June 3, 2016 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

Yes, you will reach 0 recovery with that and you could even wear an armor with 45% base penalty if I'm not mistaken. So Sanguine Plate will lead to a tiny bit of recovery I think (but I may be wrong). And with the Blade of the Endless Patchs you won't need Vulnerable Attack that much I guess. You can still take it and use it against really hefty DR though. There's a break-even point (don't know the exact numners of recovery vs. DR) when it's smart to use Vuln. Attack. But with the BotEP I (personally) would just skip it. But it can also be cool to stack a lot of DR bypass and sacrificing a bit of attack speed - especially if you're not attacking all the time like ciphers or other casters.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

 

So why not dumpstat Dex completely once you reach 0-recovery?  The decrease in animation periods is negligible surely compared to an extra 40% HP or something, right?

 

And I still don't understand why those two builds favour Dex so much, is it because they cannot reach 0-recovery?

Exactly!

 

But attack animation isN#t as short as you think. If you dump DEX to 3 with 0 recovery you will still be fast but you will feel a big difference compared to higher DEX and tehrefore shorter attack animation. And also: try to cast a spell, use a slo ability, read a scroll or drink a potion with 3 DEX.

 

Dex is mostly for drinking potions I would mostly have it on 10, except for tanks ofc you can have it on 3 there.^^

[Boeroer]

[...] Blade of the Endless Patchs [...]

 

They should really introduce that blade...

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

[...] Blade of the Endless Patchs [...]

They should really introduce that blade...

LOL. That one may be the only thing able to outmatch buttercut...

[Lorico86]

Hey folks,

 

I've been reading this thread for some time now. I'm really preparing for my definitive PotD playthru. The thing is: Like most of RPG players I'm all for good tradeoffs and can't give up on flavor for the char.

 

So I figured it is very easy to fix ACC since the beginning (with 1H weapons and no shields for the +12 bonus), mid (with enchants for ACC) and late (where ACC just comes naturally) and pretty darn hard to increase Deflection, so I decided to cut PER in favor of RES. Also to boost Will saves (easier than Reflex) and to stay true to the Fighter theme, since PER is a favored attribute for him and a bodes well with the strong leadership (Watcher) attitude of the fighter.

 

My human fighter is as follows:

 

MIG 19

CON 5

DEX 18

PER 3

INT 18

RES 15

 

Grabbed just a Rapier from the start, since it naturally increases ACC and started with Barrage for the +20 with a decent duration from a high INT.

 

Need your advice as I feel there is some major mistake I'm just not seeing. If anything at least validation that this is going to progress well.

 

Maybe went too deep on the CON cut, maybe should set it at 7. But I thought about sacking Durance for the pool as it increases 1 CON and gives +5% to endurance (effectively increasing +2 CON, +3 if you count the gift from the machine). 

 

For one I suspect I thrashed the Interrupt aspect of the Glass of Pain.

 

Anyhow, please give me some feedbacks. Needed a viable fighter with mental attributes more fitting of a strong leader.

 

great fan of you builders, been learning a lot from your posts!

[AndreaColombo]

I'm on my smartphone now so I can't comfortably elaborate, but I believe you cut PER too much. If you're going for 0 recovery (and I suggest you do), you may leave DEX at 10 and allocate 7 points to PER (thus setting it at 10 too) and 1 to CON which won't hurt for sure.

 

You may want to settle for a slightly lower INT to allocate a couple more points to CON if you felt the need to be sturdier.

 

Are you going to play with a Priest in your party? If yes, buffing Deflection is not going to be hard at all throughout the second half of the game. Until then, Scroll of Defense and Vigorous Defense will do nicely (you can later respec out of Vigorous Defense if you want a different ability, though seeing as Confident Aim is currently bugged, that might be a good alternative.) Potions of Llengrath's Didplaced Image also come in handy at +25 Deflection (but won't stack with the scroll; not sure about Vigorous Defense.)

[Lorico86]

Yeah, I'm gonna bring a priest along. Wanna keep a tight party tho, 4 adventurers would be ideal, that's how I played Baldur's Gate...

 

Going to revisit the attr distribution, thank you AndreaC, still planning on having maxed INT, but I can change my mind about RES.

 

I'm going for 0 recovery, yeah.

[Chilloutman]

Hi Sorry for being complete idiot, but how can one reach 0 recovery?

[Boeroer]

You have to stack attack speed bonuses. For example:

- Frenzy: 33%

- Speed enchantment on weapon: 20%

- Durgan refinement on weapon: 15%

- Gloves of Swift Action: 15%

 

Those bonuses are multiplicative (IF they stack), so the the more you can stack the easier it gets.

Dual wielders already have halved recovery (50%). For them it's easy to reach 0 recovery.

 

There is a thread here in the forum that goes into great detail. Somebody should really write a wiki article about it though. Then a simple link to it would be enough.

[Chilloutman]

You have to stack attack speed bonuses. For example:

- Frenzy: 33%

- Speed enchantment on weapon: 20%

- Durgan refinement on weapon: 15%

- Gloves of Swift Action: 15%

 

Those bonuses are multiplicative (IF they stack), so the the more you can stack the easier it gets.

Dual wielders already have halved recovery (50%). For them it's easy to reach 0 recovery.

 

There is a thread here in the forum that goes into great detail. Somebody should really write a wiki article about it though. Then a simple link to it would be enough.

 

But how you know which ones stack? to me bonus from dex is exactly same thing

[Elric Galad]

By sacrifying a part of precious lifespan to haunt this forum (as I do).

[Elric Galad]

 

 

You have to stack attack speed bonuses. For example:

- Frenzy: 33%

- Speed enchantment on weapon: 20%

- Durgan refinement on weapon: 15%

- Gloves of Swift Action: 15%

 

Those bonuses are multiplicative (IF they stack), so the the more you can stack the easier it gets.

Dual wielders already have halved recovery (50%). For them it's easy to reach 0 recovery.

 

There is a thread here in the forum that goes into great detail. Somebody should really write a wiki article about it though. Then a simple link to it would be enough.

But how you know which ones stack? to me bonus from dex is exactly same thing

OK, let's be a little more helpful than my previous sarcastic post.

I you really want to get in this attack speed stuff, the best source of information apart the dev themselves (or maybe including the dev themselves) is following thread :

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum/

 

If you manage to fully understand all this, you'll win your powergamer degree.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Loren Tyr]

I actually put an overview in the casting speed thread earlier today, it should contain all the speed bonus/malus effects (but let me know if I missed any): https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88795-trying-to-figure-out-casting-speed/?p=1837581

 

Copy-pasting from there, basically the non-stacking ones are these: Swift Aim, Frenzy, Outlander’s Frenzy, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Svef, Potion of Power, Their Champion Braved The Horde Alone, Swift Strikes, Time Parasite. These don't stack with each other, only the best one counts. That 'best one' stacks with everything else, though. 

 

Just to give an example, suppose you have the four attack speed bonuses Boeroer mentioned above, and attacking with that weapon. The AttackSpeedMult bonus in this case is 1.33 x 1.20 x 1.15 x 1.15 = 2.11, so a combined bonus of +111%. Let's say this is a two-handed weapon, and you're wearing plate armor. The latter gives you a 50% penalty, so you're left with 111-50 = +61% attack speed bonus, and the recovery duration is 100 - 61 = 39% of the base recovery duration. 

 

As noted though, dual-wielding makes it much easier to reach zero recovery, because you essentially start with a +50% speed bonus. If you get the Two Weapon Style talent you're already at a +70% bonus, so you'd have only another 30% to go (plus any penalty you get from armour, of course). 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Yosharian]

I'm running a POTD party without a priest, just a paladin for the DR aura but nothing else for boosting deflection or other defensive attributes.  My Lady of Pain character has 10 res and uses a shield + flail (Started with Gaun's Share then moved to Unforgiven, which is an excellent weapon), going to respec it lower & start using Blade of the Endless Paths once I get higher level (level 9 right now).  Not having many problems.  So you don't need a high res on your LoP, but you might need to use a shield for a while.  I wouldn't dumpstat it though.

 

These are the final base stats I'm aiming for although I may alter them slightly to squeeze a bit more Int out of them:

 

-Mig 18

-Con  7

-Dex 17

-Per 17

-Int 10

-Res  7

Edited September 1, 2016 by Yosharian