gkathellar Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 am also satisfied if resolve is the lone option for attribute buffing deflection. pure tanks were, we suspect, never intended to be as functional invulnerable as they currently are. seeing as how foes will suffer and benefit same as does the player from the changes to attributes, we suspect that a few battles will involve at least minor tactical changes. Yeah, I understand that, and I think in general it's a fine balance change that'll mix things up for most of the classes. I'm mostly annoyed at the effect it'll have on the paladin. Even with the buffs from 1.06, I still don't think that paladins have any real niche besides stacking defenses. With the deflection drop, that's really going to decline in efficacy, such that fighter regeneration will be a significantly preferable option. I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.
Gromnir Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 am also satisfied if resolve is the lone option for attribute buffing deflection. pure tanks were, we suspect, never intended to be as functional invulnerable as they currently are. seeing as how foes will suffer and benefit same as does the player from the changes to attributes, we suspect that a few battles will involve at least minor tactical changes. Yeah, I understand that, and I think in general it's a fine balance change that'll mix things up for most of the classes. I'm mostly annoyed at the effect it'll have on the paladin. Even with the buffs from 1.06, I still don't think that paladins have any real niche besides stacking defenses. With the deflection drop, that's really going to decline in efficacy, such that fighter regeneration will be a significantly preferable option. I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug our mileage from the paladin is different, and the 2.0 change will only require a minor alteration for us if we wish to retain similar deflection bonuses to what we current see. no, we will no longer be able to stack 2 defensive attributes, but our current favorite tank has 15 perception and 15 resolve, with a 19 in intelligence. if we want to mitigate the loss of perception deflection benefits, we can easily add at least 4 additional points to resolve without needing make any race or background changes. yes, those four points won't erase all the bonuses we would get from perception buffed from food, spells and gear, but most of our defensive efficacy comes via talents, abilities and faith and conviction bonuses. that will not change in 2.0. on the negative side, faith and convictions becomes even more integral to a paladin tank and a companion paladin tank becomes even less of an option than it currently is (or is not) assuming no changes have been made to companion faith and conviction bonuses. we don't play solo, and our ideal party configuration has multiple support characters and an off-tank. we have never depended on the invulnerable single tank, so this change affects us very little. nevertheless, we do understand that for other folks who went a different direction with their paladin or party composition, this change will require... changes. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Doppelschwert Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug They still lead in the secondary defenses, don't they? I think they are quite versatile with the orders and buffs, which is a nice thing as well compared to other classes. I guess they are the best counter class for casters and CC in a defensive sense. Edited July 17, 2015 by Doppelschwert
Luckmann Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Anyway. Deflection is still on Resolve. We're not making up for the reduction because Deflection tends to get really high on its own. Ugh. That is going to really hurt the viability of soloing with a tank. I'm actually perfectly fine with anything that hurts soloing. It's not a solo game and I think that it should be practically impossible to solo it. And overall, relatively minor reduction in defenses is fine - if anything, it makes it harder to reach the level of demi-godlike defences that you can do currently. If anyone is getting hurt, it's my planned Deflection Rogue built around Riposte. But that was always going to suck anyway. Anyway, all we know is that Resolve still has Deflection. We don't know if anything else is also getting Deflection, or if Perception still has Deflection or not. Practically speaking, the quote doesn't actually say that much, except that right now, Resolve still has Deflection. That isn't actually saying much at all. Yes, I realize that we can probably speculate a fair bit, but let's not draw any solid conclusions. Cooler heads and all that (although rarely true). oh, the hypocrisy. regardless, it is a good thing that an optional respec feature will be available with 2.0 and any further poe offerings. shoulda' been included at release. HA! Good Fun! Stop it. It's getting awkward for everyone, Strawnir. Like a drunk uncle at a BBQ. why do you continue to you post definitions when doing so hurts you. you still have no grasp o' strawman and when you tried posting definition o' hypothetical, you clear failed to read the entire definition. *shrug* as we noted earlier, your reading comprehension is... suspect. there is an obvious reason we posted not only the post in which you used "hyperbole," but your immediate preceding post. maybe you can puzzle out the problem you created for yourself. you are comical obtuse, but we continue to try and help. I did puzzle it together, but that's just it, the fact that you think that there was something to puzzle together. That's the sad part. You don't know what hyperbole is, you don't know what a hypothetical is, you don't know what hypocrisy is, and you're labeled Strawnir for a reason. You are very much like a pigeon playing chess, which is why it's so embarrassing. Edited July 17, 2015 by Luckmann
Gromnir Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 we can only lead the horse to water so many times. force the simple beast to drink becomes an exercise in animal cruelty rather than education. heck, matt516 and elerond in this very thread tried to help you, and amentep tried clarification recent in another. *shrug* in any event, http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3706905&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=575#post447859766 q&a from josh on SA (sunandspring) Q: Doesn't the respec thing make the thing with those soulbound weapons using any weapon specialty redundant? Now if you don't have the greatsword spec and you want to use the greatsword, you can just redo it and get that talent. (josh) A:Retraining isn't a selective re-allocation of individual Talents, Skills, and Abilities. You're effectively tearing up your character sheet and rebuilding from level 1. I don't think it's a good idea to require players to do that if they didn't have the prescience to know that their class' soulbound weapon was going to be in a different category. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
gkathellar Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 on the negative side, faith and convictions becomes even more integral to a paladin tank and a companion paladin tank becomes even less of an option than it currently is (or is not) assuming no changes have been made to companion faith and conviction bonuses. Oh hey, I didn't think of that. Good times. I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug They still lead in the secondary defenses, don't they? I think they are quite versatile with the orders and buffs, which is a nice thing as well compared to other classes. I guess they are the best counter class for casters and CC in a defensive sense. The best counter to CC is still to kill or otherwise lock down the source, and paladins aren't great at that. Could be I'm being pessimistic - I think someone did solo triple crown with a non-tanky paladin. I was just very fond of Orlan paladin ubertanks, you know? Ah, well. I'm actually perfectly fine with anything that hurts soloing. It's not a solo game and I think that it should be practically impossible to solo it. And overall, relatively minor reduction in defenses is fine - if anything, it makes it harder to reach the level of demi-godlike defences that you can do currently. Well, between -8 and -15 Deflection or so on high end tanks, which is actually a pretty big reduction. But I take your point. You are very much like a pigeon playing chess, which is why it's so embarrassing. pigeons r pretty smart tho 1 If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.
Doppelschwert Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug They still lead in the secondary defenses, don't they? I think they are quite versatile with the orders and buffs, which is a nice thing as well compared to other classes. I guess they are the best counter class for casters and CC in a defensive sense. The best counter to CC is still to kill or otherwise lock down the source, and paladins aren't great at that. Could be I'm being pessimistic - I think someone did solo triple crown with a non-tanky paladin. I was just very fond That's true, but you didn't ask for something integral they excel at. You are very much like a pigeon playing chess, which is why it's so embarrassing. pigeons r pretty smart tho That's actually pretty interesting, thanks.
ManifestedISO Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 they ain't quite been broken in, so we would actual welcome an "accident" that would require us to grab the adidas cross-trainers from our gym bag whew, please, no accidents, I just learned Magnanni makes Kenneth Cole look like a two-bit street cobbler. Neither of whom offer canvas Darth Vader loafers, so, only Vans for those morning walks to the driveway in a bathrobe to pick up the newspaper. All Stop. On Screen.
lightblade75 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Did everybody see the new barbarian character? I guess we will see him maybe in Part I or II of the expansion: (This is a card copied from "The Eastern Reach" Table Top / Bord or Card Game.) I think he looks quite "Conan-like", what do you think? Edited July 17, 2015 by lightblade75
lightblade75 Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 BTW This char looks like he has just one eye left. There seems to be someone who likes chars with heavy scars. I do not like a barbarian with just one eye. I hope if he makes it into PoE he will have both eyes. A strong fighting machine needs both eyes. But this is of course only my gusto. I have been out for a while so I am not up to date anymore....
gkathellar Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 That's a PC portrait, so it's doubtful we'll see him as an NPC in-game. 1 If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.
Gromnir Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 they ain't quite been broken in, so we would actual welcome an "accident" that would require us to grab the adidas cross-trainers from our gym bag whew, please, no accidents, I just learned Magnanni makes Kenneth Cole look like a two-bit street cobbler. Neither of whom offer canvas Darth Vader loafers, so, only Vans for those morning walks to the driveway in a bathrobe to pick up the newspaper. they are nice shoes, but new leather, even custom fit, is a bit... uncompromising. within a few days these shoes will be as comfortable as an old pair o' bunny slippers, but today we can take our pulse simple by thinking 'bout our feet. and as far as accidents, gk vomit would need to have pH on par with alien blood to damage these things. is cheap leather you need worry about. the high quality stuff is durable. wish we had some bunny slippers. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Luckmann Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 on the negative side, faith and convictions becomes even more integral to a paladin tank and a companion paladin tank becomes even less of an option than it currently is (or is not) assuming no changes have been made to companion faith and conviction bonuses. Oh hey, I didn't think of that. Good times. I'm not asserting that deflection tanks aren't going to function, for the record, or that paladins will be unplayable. But there won't be anything they do best, anymore. /le shrug They still lead in the secondary defenses, don't they? I think they are quite versatile with the orders and buffs, which is a nice thing as well compared to other classes. I guess they are the best counter class for casters and CC in a defensive sense. The best counter to CC is still to kill or otherwise lock down the source, and paladins aren't great at that. Could be I'm being pessimistic - I think someone did solo triple crown with a non-tanky paladin. I was just very fond of Orlan paladin ubertanks, you know? Ah, well. I'm actually perfectly fine with anything that hurts soloing. It's not a solo game and I think that it should be practically impossible to solo it. And overall, relatively minor reduction in defenses is fine - if anything, it makes it harder to reach the level of demi-godlike defences that you can do currently. Well, between -8 and -15 Deflection or so on high end tanks, which is actually a pretty big reduction. But I take your point. You are very much like a pigeon playing chess, which is why it's so embarrassing. pigeons r pretty smart tho Yeah, but they have a tendency to be terrible at chess, knocking over all of the pieces, s**t on the board and strut around like they won the game.
Serdan Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 But at least we'll never have to replay the game again. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respecs, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. So there's that. If the replay value was small before, it's virtually nil now. It's likely hyperbole *snerk*
Luckmann Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) But at least we'll never have to replay the game again. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respecs, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. So there's that. If the replay value was small before, it's virtually nil now. It's likely hyperbole *snerk* Not hyperbole. I was being serious. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respects, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. This does diminish replay value. And saying that respeccing is laborious and time-consuming is hyperbole; respeccing in PoE is incredibly fast. It can already be done via console, by means of the IEMod, and even that is likely to take longer simply because of the added work of mashing the keyboard, whereas respeccing in PoE is likely the press of a button and a some shekels trading hands. Also, I just stumbled across this fun little nugget: We are not going to implement a system to reforge a soulbound weapon into another type, throwing out its unique appearance and effects, unique icon, and unique illustration, just to force the player to fit it into their pre-existing Focus/Spec categories. Again, these are weapons that you magically bond to your soul to grow in power over time. Why are Soulbound weapons considered as a more important or integral mechanic than the player characters themselves? A character or a person can be reforged, throwing out it's unique appearance and effects, and unique illustration, in a manner of speaking, to fit into any idea of pre-existing Focus/Spec categories. A weapon that is magically bonded to the soul to grow in power over time is less malleable than the soul that has already grown in power over time? After all, with a reforge feature, if you don't like it, don't use it. Edited July 18, 2015 by Luckmann
AndreaColombo Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Not hyperbole. I was being serious. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respects, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. This does diminish replay value. And saying that respeccing is laborious and time-consuming is hyperbole; respeccing in PoE is incredibly fast. It can already be done via console, by means of the IEMod, and even that is likely to take longer simply because of the added work of mashing the keyboard, whereas respeccing in PoE is likely the press of a button and a some shekels trading hands. I disagree with you on this one, Luckmann. Respeccing is indeed a tedious and boring procedure. The only circumstance under which I would respec is if, for whatever reason, I lost interest in my character but didn't want to lose my progress by starting a new game. That was the case when I decided I wanted the Red Knight: My mind was dead-set on it and I wasn't interested in playing my estoc-wielding Fighter anymore; yet I was already in Twin Elms and I wanted to finish the game. I respecced so I could get the character I wanted and enjoy the last part of the game. I would never respec before every dialog just to get all options, and I can't possibly conceive anyone actually going through that kind of trouble for the purpose of reducing their re-playability. If I was so keen on getting all options, I would cheat to give my character 18 in all stats, as that would be infinitely more efficient (and wouldn't cost me in-game money to boot.) If someone wants to spoil their fun by abusing a feature clearly not meant to be used that way, they are welcome to be my guests; I know I wouldn't do that 'cause the point of playing the game is to have fun and respeccing every other second is quite the opposite of that. 1 "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
Kefky Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Baldur's Gate has no dialogue options based on stats, race or anything else, and still has lots of replay value.
Luckmann Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) Not hyperbole. I was being serious. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respects, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. This does diminish replay value. And saying that respeccing is laborious and time-consuming is hyperbole; respeccing in PoE is incredibly fast. It can already be done via console, by means of the IEMod, and even that is likely to take longer simply because of the added work of mashing the keyboard, whereas respeccing in PoE is likely the press of a button and a some shekels trading hands. I disagree with you on this one, Luckmann. Respeccing is indeed a tedious and boring procedure. The only circumstance under which I would respec is if, for whatever reason, I lost interest in my character but didn't want to lose my progress by starting a new game. That was the case when I decided I wanted the Red Knight: My mind was dead-set on it and I wasn't interested in playing my estoc-wielding Fighter anymore; yet I was already in Twin Elms and I wanted to finish the game. I respecced so I could get the character I wanted and enjoy the last part of the game. I would never respec before every dialog just to get all options, and I can't possibly conceive anyone actually going through that kind of trouble for the purpose of reducing their re-playability. If I was so keen on getting all options, I would cheat to give my character 18 in all stats, as that would be infinitely more efficient (and wouldn't cost me in-game money to boot.) If someone wants to spoil their fun by abusing a feature clearly not meant to be used that way, they are welcome to be my guests; I know I wouldn't do that 'cause the point of playing the game is to have fun and respeccing every other second is quite the opposite of that. Tedious and boring? Yes. But not laborious and time-consuming. I never said it was fun. But the amount of fun involved was never in question, but the time it took and the amount of work. It is actually a very, very quick process, once you've actually reset the character, and there are definitely choices in the game where you'd be incentivized to do it just so you can solve something in the manner you want to, especially since we know that certain choices or options are locked behind various barriers (in fact, one of my more common critique is that you can't even *attempt* to do X unless you have Y Attribute). The point of the game is indeed having fun, but we know that degenerative gameplay, or mechanics supporting degenerative gameplay, has a tendency to creep up on players due to good ol' human nature, whether we want it or not. And every other second is hyperbole - there's not enough distinct options to even warrant that. But it's entirely doable, and I loathe to see characters treated like that in what is supposed to be a roleplaying game. Baldur's Gate has no dialogue options based on stats, race or anything else, and still has lots of replay value. Well first of all, it did. BG2 more than BG1, but still. But Baldur's Gate/II had better combat and you did things differently from game to game, and got better and better. In PoE, you either suck completely or you've practically mastered the game. There's no progression or sense of improvement once you've gotten over the initial hurdle of learning the basics. It's apples and oranges, in terms of replayability. There's games with replayability that has no dialogue at all. Edited July 18, 2015 by Luckmann
Namutree Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Baldur's Gate has no dialogue options based on stats, race or anything else, and still has lots of replay value. That's not entirely accurate. Some options will not appear if CHA is too low, such as Viconia asking to join your party. 1 "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.
Eisenheinrich Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Baldur's Gate has no dialogue options based on stats, race or anything else, and still has lots of replay value. That's not entirely accurate. Some options will not appear if CHA is too low, such as Viconia asking to join your party. Male, fetch me something to eat! 2
Gromnir Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 But at least we'll never have to replay the game again. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respecs, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. So there's that. If the replay value was small before, it's virtually nil now. It's likely hyperbole *snerk* Not hyperbole. I was being serious. that is what makes it funny. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Luckmann Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 But at least we'll never have to replay the game again. The choice of race and class has practically no effect in the narrative, and with respecs, we can just change our character to get all the options in every dialogue. So there's that. If the replay value was small before, it's virtually nil now. It's likely hyperbole *snerk* Not hyperbole. I was being serious. that is what makes it funny. HA! Good Fun! Now you're just flinging your own poop, Strawnir.
Gromnir Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 is yet another example o' folks other than Gromnir identifying your error(s) and your refusal to recognize which side o' the monkey cage you is standing. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
gkathellar Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Baldur's Gate has no dialogue options based on stats, race or anything else, and still has lots of replay value. That's not entirely accurate. Some options will not appear if CHA is too low, such as Viconia asking to join your party. Others include Shar-Teel only joining a male PC, getting a +1 dagger in Candlekeep with Charisma 18, outwitting the Aboleth in the Underdark with Int 17, and so on and so forth. BG1/2 really isn't the thing to make comparisons to for this, however, as PoE's stat-based dialogue options draw pretty clearly on Planescape: Torment. Given the way stats grew in PS:T, you can't exactly say they were a major source of replay value there, either. PS:T's only real narrative-dividing decision is "do you join the Xaositects?" But honestly, even that's pretty flimsy. Linear, story-based games of this type just don't have a lot of replay value, at least not in the traditional, "see all the content," sense. I think the big reason to replay PoE is the same as the big reason to replay PS:T - you want to read the story again. That's fine by me. Replay value is overrated. your refusal to recognize which side o' the monkey cage you is standing. Bonobos and chimpanzees have little genetic differentiation, as the result of what was originally a single population divided by the formation of the Congo River a mere 1.5-2 million years ago. On the northern side of the river, where resources are scarce, chimpanzees have developed complex tool use and a society of competing patriarchal clan, in which strict hierarchy resolves intraclan disputes and surprisingly complex warfare resolves interclan disputes. On the lush southern side, bonobos have formed matriarchal clans that resolve virtually all of their conflicts with sex, demonstrating sophisticated social arrangements and communications skills arguably exceeding those of all other great apes. Very few primates can swim, you see, so a river like the Congo might as well be the iron bars of a cage. As to which species is more developed - that probably depends on which side of the river you're standing. 1 If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time. Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.
Gromnir Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 *chuckle* funny. however, we will observe that you are describing apes and not monkeys. furthermore, http://www.sci-news.com/biology/science-chimpanzees-orangutans-swim-dive-01319.html HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
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