Why does the origin of the Gods matter? (Ending Spoilers)

[Concordance]

Iovara had led her own cult to spread awareness of the Gods' man-made origins, but she also admits they have real power. The two dryads also attest that the Gods are not to be trifled with. If you renege on your promise to any of the four gods, you find out for yourself just how much power they wield over the mortal realm.

 

If the Gods have real power over kith, nature and souls, what does it matter that they were man-made? The game seems to make a big deal out of this, but I don't see a practical difference. 

 

[RevBlue]

the entire world works on the assumption they are some omni-present force that has been around since the creation of the world.

To find out they are essentially soul golems(may not be the best analogy as they have  thier own will, but how do we know its not pre-programming, as such?)  made by people's designs matters a lot i think

[Elerond]

That is one of the questions which the game asks, do it matter that gods are artificial or not. It is question that drives major conflicts in the game's story, game don't have ultimate answer to this question, but it show arguments from both sides and lets player decide what their character thinks about it, but anything that PC decides to believe don't at least matter on fact that most of Eora is oblivious towards this question. And companion all decide themselves with some impact from PC how they see the subject. For example to Edér it can mean that his belief towards Eothas (or at least things that Eothas stands for)  becomes greater and he becomes sort of preacher and leader for him.

[Tigranes]

As Elerond says, that's exactly the point of the plot to pose that question; does it matter? If so, in what way? Thaos clearly thinks it shouldn't matter, and he's willing to do anything to keep the secret so that he can guarantee it continues to not matter. 

 

One could easily argue Iovara's Crusade was not justified - we simply don't have enough information to assess whether the gods as a whole have been harmful / beneficial in what ways for the development of this world. 

 

The only way to have a sure attitude towards it would be a dogmatic secularist "durr truth is always best also gods are stupid and primitive EVERYONE BECOME MODERN".

[Yonjuro]

...

If the Gods have real power over kith, nature and souls, what does it matter that they were man-made? The game seems to make a big deal out of this, but I don't see a practical difference.

 

 

 If the gods are serving the function of celestial dictator who give you things for doing their bidding and hurting you if you don't, then sure, there's no practical difference (except for one major loophole).

 

 However, since the rules that these constructed beings are enforcing are just arbitrary stuff made up by previous kith, that certainly makes a difference in terms whether they are worth following or should be overthrown. The latter option is the loophole that I mentioned where a group of motivated kith joined forces to kill Eothas.

 

 If the rules of the world were just made up by beings no different than those being coerced into following them, why should they follow them? Isn't overthrowing the dictatorship a better option?

[Yonjuro]

...

One could easily argue Iovara's Crusade was not justified - we simply don't have enough information to assess whether the gods as a whole have been harmful / beneficial in what ways for the development of this world. 

 

The only way to have a sure attitude towards it would be a dogmatic secularist "durr truth is always best also gods are stupid and primitive EVERYONE BECOME MODERN".

 

 At the risk of sounding like a 'dogmatic secularist', are you suggesting that the population as a whole is not smart enough to be trusted with the truth, so lying to them might be the preferred option? If so, isn't that a little ( <-- comedic understatement) condescending (albeit towards fictional beings)?  

 

 In the game world, the people who made up the rules and etched them in stone (or, rather, in soul constructs) were more primitive people (in every way except for their one technology which was hidden and forgotten about to preserve the lie). Why is everybody supposed to follow the rules they made up? If you feel that it's fine as long the system works, is that true (for you) in the real world?

 

 BTW, just to state where I'm coming from (or where I think you might be coming from), I'm assuming that, here in the real world, you might be an irreligious person who thinks that religion is useful for 'the masses.' Hence my use of the word "condescending." If I got that wrong, just let me know.

[Concordance]

The problem I have with the revelation that Gods are man-made is: they seem to live up to everything humans think they are.

 

They appear to have the fickle personalities humans ascribe to them, and capable of giving out great rewards and greater punishments. They also appear to be omniscient, and while individual gods are not omnipotent, each God commands enough power over the world to be able to destroy civilizations on his own. 

 

Whether you believe in the Gods or not, but they still exist and they can still help you or kill you. If the Kith tried to rebel against their celestial masters, they could be wiped off the face of Eora in a heartbeat. The only dilemma I see is whether to keep this knowledge away from kith, lest they attempt a rebellion and the whole world ends up suffering for it - which, funnily enough, ends up in me agreeing with Thaos yet having to kill him anyway.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Concordance

[Yonjuro]

The problem I have with the revelation that Gods are man-made is: they seem to live up to everything humans think they are.

 

So, if I understand you,  you think it's a distinction without a difference. I think I have two issues with that.

 

 First, isn't it a little bit broken to have the majority of the population thinking that the gods created them when it was closer to the other way around? Put another way, even if you think it would be a better tactical decision to not piss off the powerful beings, doesn't the truth matter?

 

 Second, there is already an example of killing one of the so-called gods and Thaos is genuinely fearful about what animancers are going to find, so, presumably there is away to, umm, fix this.

 

 

...

Whether you believe in the Gods or not, but they still exist and they can still help you or kill you. If the Kith tried to rebel against their celestial masters, they could be wiped off the face of Eora in a heartbeat. The only dilemma I see is whether to keep this knowledge away from kith, lest they attempt a rebellion and the whole world ends up suffering for it - which, funnily enough, ends up in me agreeing with Thaos yet having to kill him anyway.

 

 So, in the sequel, let's call it - PoE2: The Inquisition - your character will be torturing heretics to keep the truth from getting out?  

 

Isn't that kind of evil? 

[Guest]

By the time we meet Iovara face to face, we've seen people...pushed (sometimes to extremes) by their beliefs. To say that the foundation of that belief isn't important is to miss the point.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Achilles

[Katarack21]

It's important because what it really comes down to is the Engwithans controlling and manipulating the rest of the world for thousands of years because they think they're better.

The gods are just the philosophies and ideals one specific society, incarnated and given power. It's like if I made a super-advanced robot, programmed it with all my beliefs, gave it super-powers and told you this is god and you have to do what it says. It's a form of control, a way of forcing future societies to hold to their own standards and concepts.

[Bryy]

The problem I have with the revelation that Gods are man-made is: they seem to live up to everything humans think they are.

That's because humans made them. 

[Dadalama]

I find this scenario funny, after all this work the Leaden key does the secret gets out anyways. And the public's response is almost universally a resounding "meh".

 

Since they technically still exist, and they do give powers, it just doesn't seem like authenticity is that big of a deal. The conspiracy would probably do more harm then anything.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dadalama

[Concordance]

It's important because what it really comes down to is the Engwithans controlling and manipulating the rest of the world for thousands of years because they think they're better.

 

The gods are just the philosophies and ideals one specific society, incarnated and given power. It's like if I made a super-advanced robot, programmed it with all my beliefs, gave it super-powers and told you this is god and you have to do what it says. It's a form of control, a way of forcing future societies to hold to their own standards and concepts.

 

Using your analogy - what if the robot was part of a group of robots, could grant men untold power or wipe out entire civilizations, and the only thing keeping it in check were the other robots? If the only thing capable of hurting the robot were other robots, what could the humans possibly do about it?

 

Even though Eothas possessed a mortal body, he was not slain by mortals. Waidwen was described as if not invulnerable, then nearly impossible for kith to defeat in battle. He was killed by a weapon made under the guidance of another God, who proceeded to kill off the engineers to ensure it would not be used against anyone else. So it was not really the kith who killed a God, but another God acting through mortal hands.

 

Woedica is also told to have been subdued by the other Gods. I am not sure if the available lore explains exactly who brought her down or how, but the Gods in the Council of Stars appeared to take credit for it.

 

So if the gods are real, have real power to bestow boons and dish out punishment and cannot be harmed by mortals, does it matter that they were created by Engwithians? One way or another, they are now a force of nature that you have to reckon with - just as not believing in cold does not stop you from freezing to death, ignoring the Gods won't stop them from punishing you.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Concordance

[Katarack21]

 

It's important because what it really comes down to is the Engwithans controlling and manipulating the rest of the world for thousands of years because they think they're better.

 

The gods are just the philosophies and ideals one specific society, incarnated and given power. It's like if I made a super-advanced robot, programmed it with all my beliefs, gave it super-powers and told you this is god and you have to do what it says. It's a form of control, a way of forcing future societies to hold to their own standards and concepts.

 

Using your analogy - what if the robot was part of a group of robots, could grant men untold power or wipe out entire civilizations, and the only thing keeping it in check were the other robots? If the only thing capable of hurting the robot were other robots, what could the humans possibly do about it?

 

Even though Eothas possessed a mortal body, he was not slain by mortals. Waidwen was described as if not invulnerable, then nearly impossible for kith to defeat in battle. He was killed by a weapon made under the guidance of another God, who proceeded to kill off the engineers to ensure it would not be used against anyone else. So it was not really the kith who killed a God, but another God acting through mortal hands.

 

Woedica is also told to have been subdued by the other Gods. I am not sure if the available lore explains exactly who brought her down or how, but the Gods in the Council of Stars appeared to take credit for it.

 

So if the gods are real, have real power to bestow boons and dish out punishment and cannot be harmed by mortals, does it matter that they were created by Engwithians? One way or another, they are now a force of nature that you have to reckon with - just as not believing in cold does not stop you from freezing to death, ignoring the Gods won't stop them from punishing you.

 

It doesn't matter how much power they have. That power was created by mortals for the purpose of making sure some ideal or philosophy really liked stayed around forever and every would follow it. That's all. Humans *can* do something about it, clearly; the gods are afraid we would, or otherwise they wouldn't have killed off everybody who know how to. What mortals have made, mortals can unmake. The "gods" aren't real, in the sense of the entities and mythologies presented as their history. There's a bunch of robots, named Woedica and Eothas and whatnot, who have all been programmed to believe they are these made-up beings and who have been given a lot of power to enforce their pre-built belief structures. They can be harmed by mortals; mortal hands can create things that would kill them, and the gods will kill us to stop us from doing it again. You act like they are some sort in inevitable force; they are just tools that the Engwithans made to do a job, that job being the perpetuation of their cultural ideals.

 

Their ideals are old and outdated, and need to change. Human society on Eora needs the chance to develop their own culture and their own ideals, seperate and apart from what the Engwithans decided should always be.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Katarack21

[b0rsuk]

There are two more implications:

* Gods can be destroyed (Fate of Eothas is not 100% clear, he's called Scattered God, not Dead God)

* New gods can be created. Through Animancy.

 

Think about god creation. The current gods are said to have limitations, they must act through avatars. The limit was probably placed on purpose. What if new gods are designed without it ?

[Katarack21]

What if somebody makes themselves into a god?

[Elerond]

Eothas was slain by kith made weapon, even though those who made get their instructions from one of the gods, it ultimately means that there is way how kith can kill the gods if they want to. There was reason why Magran wanted all those who made the bomb to die with it, which is why I think that there is quite lot implications in how The Trials of Durance ends, as Durance knows how to make weapon that kills a god, and there is possibility that he ends up wanting vengeance towards Magran.

 

And I also think that you overestimate power that gods have, but they are powerful because they consist from millions of souls which power they can use. But even then their power seems to have clear limits.

 

Also they aren't omniscient even though they have quite good knowledge about things. For example Magran don't seem to know that Durance didn't die, and Eothas didn't know that he was walking in the trap, etc.. 

 

So gods of Eora have undeniable power, they are capable to many things that kith can't do, but they also have limits and they need kith to do quite lot of things for them. There is reason why first missionaries exists, why they become inquisition that wiped or tried to wipe Iovara's followers and knowledge from the world, why Leaden Key exist, why Magran needed her followers to build Godhammer, why for example Berath is annoyed with two druids that have extended their life and why he promises you boon if you kill them.

 

And what is your opinion of question does it matter if people of Eora are told that gods are made by kith (more specifically Engwithans), like Iovara argues, or should that information be hided from them like Thaos argues?.

[Exyll]

I think their origin matters a lot. Im not going to follow some man made creation, its tainted by the agenda or the influence of its creator.

Yea it makes a huge difference on the origin. They are supposed to represent ideals or virtues, but being created my man, you have to question if that ideal is in it's purest form or simply a flawed interpretation of (a) man's concept of this idea.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Exyll

[Sylvanpyxie]

I think too much emphasis was put onto "the Gods are not real". The Gods are blatantly real because they influence the world and the people in it. They grant boons and set people trials and test mortal kith at every turn. They speak directly to kith when they come calling.

 

The big issue is that the Gods were created. It holds a lot of implications. The world and the wheel existed before the Gods, the universe would keep running without them. Give it some time and people will begin thinking on that. Some folks will get tired of Gods poking their noses into kith business, they'll start to think that maybe they don't need these Gods after all.... Eothas is already presumed dead, at the very least he's missing in action, so people know that they can deal serious damage to their Celestial Overlords.

 

Knowing that the Gods are a creation of the Kith, it opens the door to divine war.

[MReed]

 

Using your analogy - what if the robot was part of a group of robots, could grant men untold power or wipe out entire civilizations, and the only thing keeping it in check were the other robots? If the only thing capable of hurting the robot were other robots, what could the humans possibly do about it?

 

These things wouldn't be true -- humans could, for example, create new robots to fight / destroy the first.  Or they could create weapons that are designed to disable / control / destroy robots.  Or they could do something altogether different (migrate to another planet, for example) that renders the computers irrelevant.  But the key factor in all of these scenarios is general agreement that the robots are mortal beings and therefore can be defeated -- and knowing that they are created beings (created by humans to boot) pretty much ends the discussion.

 

I mean, come on, this has been the plot of numerous stories and movies -- just off hand, the Terminator and Matrix movies both have an apparently all powerful / all knowing antagonist that the protagonists must overthrow in one way or the other.  In the case of the Matrix movies, the robots are omnipotent / omniscient (although only within the Matrix, not the real world).

 

Now, whether or not humans are willing to pay the price for opposing the will of the gods is a separate question altogether, but it is clearly possible.

[gkathellar]

If the gods were created by kith, from whence do they derive any kind of moral authority?

 

Thaos wants the gods' origins to remain unknown because he is afraid of their moral authority being questioned. Iovara wants their origins to be known because she believes kith have the right to decide for themselves how they want to live.

 

There are larger philosophical questions to be asked, but within PoE's own parameters, these are the reasons that it matters.

[Rumpelstilskin]

I think polytheistic religions are generally a lot more pragmatic than monotheistic ones. People don't "worship" gods as much as they respect their power, and pray just to get help from them (or avoid being punished). 

[Dudraug]

General ideas is not real gods or not. General idea is "can people exist without gods or not?". And if gods don't exist ( or they are gone) should or not people create gods (or religion)?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dudraug

[Peanuckle]

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

 

I'd have really appreciated some extended dialogue with Thaos. What sort of proof can he offer? Are his genocides and crimes outweighed by the improvement of life and the number of lives saved? Are more people alive thanks to him than would be otherwise? Is it right to kill a thousand to save a million? These questions are hinted at, but never really brought up. They'd have been much more interesting to me than the "awakening" plotline.

[dododad]

But, but awakening is awesome! Just think of all those cringy atheists huffing and puffing for whole game, just to finally be able to learn the glorious Truth! Who cares about fine print and details, Atheism wins!