Just discovered something with armor, duh!

[Ouroboros226]

I thought DR on all armors were just overall physical resist. 

But I just found out that different armors has different resists. For example, padded armor does NOTHING vs slash. Some armors defend only against certain physical attacks etc. So some armors protect better vs archers and some none at all. 

Sorry to state what is probably obvious to most people here. I just found it very, very awesome that they took the choice of armor to this level. Not only is it sensical - it also adds more depth to the combat system.

Just curious how you guys feel about this in general? Headache or great game design?

 

[apolloooo]

wow, that's actually awesome

[Monte Carlo]

It's actually a complete headache but that's just my opinion.

[G2Revelation]

I'm not sure you're entirely correct. 

 

It is my understanding that DR works as follows:

 

Leather Armor has a DR of 6. 

 

This means that it automatically reduces ALL incoming damage (regardless of type) by 6 points. This includes slashing, crushing, piercing, freezing, burning, shocking and corrosive but does not include RAW damage (which always ignores DR). 

 

However, if there is a specific damage shown, then that value REPLACES the default value. So, for example, Plate Armor has a base DR of 10 but a shock DR of 6. 

 

This means that it only resists 6 damage of the shocking type but will resist 10 of everything else, etc. 

[Rosveen]

I'm not sure you're entirely correct.

 

It is my understanding that DR works as follows:

 

Leather Armor has a DR of 6.

 

This means that it automatically reduces ALL incoming damage (regardless of type) by 6 points. This includes slashing, crushing, piercing, freezing, burning, shocking and corrosive but does not include RAW damage (which always ignores DR).

 

However, if there is a specific damage shown, then that value REPLACES the default value. So, for example, Plate Armor has a base DR of 10 but a shock DR of 6.

 

This means that it only resists 6 damage of the shocking type but will resist 10 of everything else, etc.

This. I thought it was like the OP describes, then I saw someone explain it here on the forum and had a mind blown moment.

 

I don't know if in-game tooltips describe how it works, but I played without tooltips and I missed so much information.

[Ardan Reddy]

G2Revelation is correct. Ergo, standard padded armour has a DR of 4 against slash as opposed to "nothing".

[luzarius]

I'm not sure you're entirely correct. 

 

It is my understanding that DR works as follows:

 

Leather Armor has a DR of 6. 

 

This means that it automatically reduces ALL incoming damage (regardless of type) by 6 points. This includes slashing, crushing, piercing, freezing, burning, shocking and corrosive but does not include RAW damage (which always ignores DR). 

 

However, if there is a specific damage shown, then that value REPLACES the default value. So, for example, Plate Armor has a base DR of 10 but a shock DR of 6. 

 

This means that it only resists 6 damage of the shocking type but will resist 10 of everything else, etc. 

 

Thanks, this helps a lot

[Ouroboros226]

So it has the DR vs all... but bonus vs stated damage? O.o

[Greensleeve]

So it has the DR vs all... but bonus vs stated damage? O.o

 

Or penalty, exactly. 

[Guest]

Pay attention to the bestiary as this same dynamic works with the creatures as well. Knowing what damage types to use against which enemies can make difficult fights much easier (i.e. a sword is literally useless against an adra animat, however a shock spell will drop it pretty quickly)

[Galaen]

Pay attention to the bestiary as this same dynamic works with the creatures as well. Knowing what damage types to use against which enemies can make difficult fights much easier (i.e. a sword is literally useless against an adra animat, however a shock spell will drop it pretty quickly)

 

This is what makes weapons with multiple damage types more attractive as well. The game uses whatver the enemy is weaker against.

[pacman]

It's really weird to me that generally all armor gives huge DR for elemental attacks.  Traditionally in these types of games, that big enemy in plate armor is weak to magic attacks.  It also makes DoT's behave really weirdly (e.g. antipathetic echo hits six times with corrode damage, meaning it will hit an armored target with DR 10 for about 60 less damage than an unarmored target).  I wish they kept the DT/DR system they originally had planned.  I'm trying to make a mod to rebalance these Cipher abilities like Antipathetic and Ectopsychic but I'm not sure it's possible with the straight DR system without reducing the number of hits or just letting them bypass DR.

Edited April 16, 2015 by pacman

[Galaen]

It's really weird to me that generally all armor gives huge DR for elemental attacks.  Traditionally in these types of games, that big enemy in plate armor is weak to magic attacks.  It also makes DoT's behave really weirdly (e.g. antipathetic echo hits six times with corrode damage, meaning it will hit an armored target with DR 10 for about 60 less damage than an unarmored target).  I wish they kept the DT/DR system they originally had planned.  I'm trying to make a mod to rebalance these Cipher abilities like Antipathetic and Ectopsychic but I'm not sure it's possible with the straight DR system without reducing the number of hits or just letting them bypass DR.

 

I personally feel like it's fine as is. In your example there's no reason why a character in full plate would take full damage from a corrosion (acid) attack because the armor would indeed protect one from it. Conversely, getting hit with lightning would hurt much more, which is relected in plates lower DR vs shock.

[Tigranes]

G2Revelation is correct.

 

Just read the DR values on the item description. Or the DR values on your character sheet when you equip the armour. This makes it a strategic decision to swap in different armour against different opponents - not so much that everybody has to do it, but in tough fights it can make a difference.

[Luckmann]

I'm not sure you're entirely correct. 

 

It is my understanding that DR works as follows:

 

Leather Armor has a DR of 6. 

 

This means that it automatically reduces ALL incoming damage (regardless of type) by 6 points. This includes slashing, crushing, piercing, freezing, burning, shocking and corrosive but does not include RAW damage (which always ignores DR). 

 

However, if there is a specific damage shown, then that value REPLACES the default value. So, for example, Plate Armor has a base DR of 10 but a shock DR of 6. 

 

This means that it only resists 6 damage of the shocking type but will resist 10 of everything else, etc. 

 

This.

 

This is it.

 

Let there be no confusion here.

 

G2Revelation is right, everyone that says otherwise is factually wrong.

 

Also, one small note: the differences in DR between the base DR of the armour and the specific DR is actually a percentage, "under the hood".

 

So let's say that an Armour has DR 6. But it only has Slash 3. And Corrode 12.

 

That means that, mechanically, it actually has DR 6, and Slash 50%. But Corrode 200%.

 

Why is this relevant to know? Because the numbers you see are deceptive, and the game actually does calculate everything with fractions and decimals. It is just that everything that is reported in the combat log and on the sheets (well, most of it) are rounded numbers. If you increase the DR of the Armour through any means, that Slash and Corrode resistance goes with it. You increased the DR to 7 (from 6)? Well the SlashiDR is now actually 3.5 (but will probably show 4), and the Corrode DR is 14.

 

And then when it calculates damage.. if you are hit by Slash Damage, it's not going to use 4. It's going to use 3.5.

 

Unless I've misunderstood it or if they've changed it, but w/e.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Luckmann

[Guest]

@Galaen weapon focus knight is nice because it gives accuracy bonuses to two weapons that have that "Best of" property: sword and crossbow. Slight pain in the ass to swap out a weapon slot for the morning star on the rare occurrence that I need something with Crush damage, but it's not worth taking Arms Bearer to compensate.

[pacman]

 

It's really weird to me that generally all armor gives huge DR for elemental attacks.  Traditionally in these types of games, that big enemy in plate armor is weak to magic attacks.  It also makes DoT's behave really weirdly (e.g. antipathetic echo hits six times with corrode damage, meaning it will hit an armored target with DR 10 for about 60 less damage than an unarmored target).  I wish they kept the DT/DR system they originally had planned.  I'm trying to make a mod to rebalance these Cipher abilities like Antipathetic and Ectopsychic but I'm not sure it's possible with the straight DR system without reducing the number of hits or just letting them bypass DR.

 

I personally feel like it's fine as is. In your example there's no reason why a character in full plate would take full damage from a corrosion (acid) attack because the armor would indeed protect one from it. Conversely, getting hit with lightning would hurt much more, which is relected in plates lower DR vs shock.

 

 

Yes it makes sense that armor protects from acid a bit, but what about fire? Should soul ignition (4-5 ticks of 17 burn damage) really do almost nothing to an enemy in plate mail?  I miss cooking meat-heads in their armor

 

And the main problem is not whether armor should or shouldn't protect against an elemental attack, but how much.  The straight DR system limits a DoT (or any multi-hit ability like... dual wielding) to either being useless against enemies with DR and balanced against enemies without DR, or balanced against enemies with DR and absurd against enemies without DR.  The more hits, the more impossible it becomes to make an ability balanced in both cases.  This is why they made poison do raw damage - it's the only way to balance a DoT like that.  But it would not be acceptable to make soul ignition do raw damage...

[Zenicetus]

If I understand this correctly, the special damage modifiers also scale up when DR is increased by enchantments of various types. In other words, taking Leather armor as an example:

 

Base Leather Armor: DR 6, Slash 9 (150%), Corrode 3 (50%)

 

Now if we apply a +4 DR buff to make it Exceptional Armor, we'll have the following, with the modified types replacing the base stat when applied:

 

Exceptional Leather Armor: DR 10, Slash 15 (150%), Corrode 5 (50%)

 

And any additional buffs like belts, rings etc. that add armor DR will work the same way, using the percentage modifiers for the advantages and disadvantages, right?

 

P.S. Yes, definitely check the bestiary for how these stats are listed for various creatures. it was a big help once I figured that out; electrical damage for Animats, corrosive for Ogres, etc.

 

[luzarius]

Guys help me understand something.

 

Scale armor has DR 7, but then it says PIERCE 5. Does that mean scale armor only has a DR of 5 vs pierce or does it mean the 5 pierce gets added to the base DR of 7, totallying 12 DR against pierce?

 

 

 

It means Scale Armor only has a DR of 5 against piercing attacks. Since crush isn't listed it has a DR of 7 vs it.

 

Got it, thanks!

Edited April 16, 2015 by luzarius

[Galaen]

It means Scale Armor only has a DR of 5 against piercing attacks. Since crush isn't listed it has a DR of 7 vs it.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Galaen

[Luckmann]

If I understand this correctly, the special damage modifiers also scale up when DR is increased by enchantments of various types. In other words, taking Leather armor as an example:

 

Base Leather Armor: DR 6, Slash 9 (150%), Corrode 3 (50%)

 

Now if we apply a +4 DR buff to make it Exceptional Armor, we'll have the following, with the modified types replacing the base stat when applied:

 

Exceptional Leather Armor: DR 10, Slash 15 (150%), Corrode 5 (50%)

This is correct, as far as I've managed to ascertain.

 

And any additional buffs like belts, rings etc. that add armor DR will work the same way, using the percentage modifiers for the advantages and disadvantages, right?

This is.. not. I think.

[G2Revelation]

I believe, and I'm less certain about this because I haven't been able to finish testing it, but I believe rings, belts, amulets and so on don't use percentages, they provide raw bonuses. So, for example, the belt that increases your piercing and slashing resistance by 5 is a flat +5 bonus to them, regardless of any other percentages or bonuses. 

[Matt516]

 

I'm not sure you're entirely correct. 

 

It is my understanding that DR works as follows:

 

Leather Armor has a DR of 6. 

 

This means that it automatically reduces ALL incoming damage (regardless of type) by 6 points. This includes slashing, crushing, piercing, freezing, burning, shocking and corrosive but does not include RAW damage (which always ignores DR). 

 

However, if there is a specific damage shown, then that value REPLACES the default value. So, for example, Plate Armor has a base DR of 10 but a shock DR of 6. 

 

This means that it only resists 6 damage of the shocking type but will resist 10 of everything else, etc. 

 

This.

 

This is it.

 

Let there be no confusion here.

 

G2Revelation is right, everyone that says otherwise is factually wrong.

 

Also, one small note: the differences in DR between the base DR of the armour and the specific DR is actually a percentage, "under the hood".

 

So let's say that an Armour has DR 6. But it only has Slash 3. And Corrode 12.

 

That means that, mechanically, it actually has DR 6, and Slash 50%. But Corrode 200%.

 

Why is this relevant to know? Because the numbers you see are deceptive, and the game actually does calculate everything with fractions and decimals. It is just that everything that is reported in the combat log and on the sheets (well, most of it) are rounded numbers. If you increase the DR of the Armour through any means, that Slash and Corrode resistance goes with it. You increased the DR to 7 (from 6)? Well the SlashiDR is now actually 3.5 (but will probably show 4), and the Corrode DR is 14.

 

And then when it calculates damage.. if you are hit by Slash Damage, it's not going to use 4. It's going to use 3.5.

 

Unless I've misunderstood it or if they've changed it, but w/e.

 

 

Another voice chiming in to say yes, this is how it works.

 

Basic DR shown applies to all damage.... unless DR for another type of damage is shown. Then that DR applies instead.

 

And as Luckmann said, the non-basic DRs for each armor are indeed percentages behind the scenes. This is why when you increase the Plate DR from 10 to 12 with a Fine enchantment, the Slash/Pierce DRs go up from 15 to 18 - not to 17. Because it's really Plate = 10 DR, and 150% Slash/Pierce. 

 

This is how it works. If a damage type is not listed, use the basic armor DR. If a damage type is listed specifically, use that DR instead. Pretty straightforward.

 

EDIT: Extra DR boni outside of armor enchants are just additive AFAIK. They don't interact with the armor percentages or anything.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Matt516

[Zenicetus]

 

And any additional buffs like belts, rings etc. that add armor DR will work the same way, using the percentage modifiers for the advantages and disadvantages, right?

This is.. not. I think.

 

 

Okay, I just tested it, and it does work at least for individual damage types.

 

Eder is currently wearing a ring that gives +3 DR against pierce (only). On his character sheet, I can see his DR stats for piercing damage change when I take the ring on and off. 

 

I haven't found any other DR buffing trinkets in the game. They seem to be rare (or I'm just unlucky), and maybe they're all individual damage type protections like this.

 

Edit to add:  No, wait... I'm wrong. It doesn't work on the percentages. It added +3 directly on top of the calculated DR of the armor.

 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Zenicetus

[Zenicetus]

I believe, and I'm less certain about this because I haven't been able to finish testing it, but I believe rings, belts, amulets and so on don't use percentages, they provide raw bonuses. So, for example, the belt that increases your piercing and slashing resistance by 5 is a flat +5 bonus to them, regardless of any other percentages or bonuses. 

 

Yes, I just tested it with a +3 ring of protection against piercing (among other things) and that's how it works. A flat increase.