Wizard suggestion

[Ouroboros226]

Hey people, first post here ^- ^ (And you are probably thinking, "and of course! A whine thread!"). Hopefully this rather classifies as constructive criticism. Please excuse my poor English (non-native).

I love the game to death! I can't get enough of it and I feel horrible not having backed it. I mostly lurk at forums but this is something I think the devs really, really need to fix. I almost feel there is a duty to say this

In DnD Wizards are balanced around limited casts, something PoE adopted. In return, these spells can be tremendously powerful. Back with NwN + NwN2 I remember it still...

 

A wizard was truly a wizard. You could summon meteors from the sky to demolish your enemies. You could use finger of death to instantly kill a foe. You could stop time itself and summon Balors from the abyss to cleave your enemies in half with their vorpal blades. You could summon wailing banshees, instill fear, obliterate mobs with fireballs. You were as I said, truly a WIZARD. Running around with haste and fireshield wrecking chaos and death in your wake.

In this game I went for Wizard due to my nostalgia for such days. I expected Wizard to be powerful yet physically frail. But near the end I actually rerolled before the last boss. Because the frustration and disappointment over PoE's take on Wizards had completely destroyed any love I thought I would have for the class. I would rather not see the ending than waste it on a wizard in its current state.

The problem:

1) Wizard spells are on par with Ciphers in damage and CC potential as I see it. Some people have even stated that Cipher spells are superior! Yet Cipher does not have a spell limitation. Wizard spells should be doing at least THRICE the damage they do to justify having limited cast spells. 

 

2) Wizard spells suffer from a huge lack in imagination and variation. You have generic and forgettable spells for CC and damage. Not only are there FEW spells. The spells you do have, most of them serve pretty much the same purposes with a slight variation. 

 

3) Chanters get the summons now. Understandable, to make that class more unique and have its tools. However, if this makes Wizards not being able to have summons, then at the very least give us something more/else.

4) Currently there is no reason to roll a wizard instead of a cipher. Maybe wizards can out-damage a cipher if they frontload all their spells in one fight. Maybe. But over the course of say, 10 encounters without rest - a cipher will probably out-dps a wizard ten to one.

 

5) To add insult to injury, ciphers get tons of role-playing options. In my 50 hour first playthrough I did not get one conversation based on the wizard class.

 

So here is my suggestions:

1) First, the Wizard needs 1-3 extra spell options per level. Give us something interesting and varied.  

2) Boost the power of wizard spells. They SHOULD be powerful. Limited casts remember? There is a reason Wizards were so powerful in DnD, they were poor combatants with their base stats, with poor health-gain, terrible aim and no real combat talents other than spells. It is as if you were afraid to make Wizards too powerful?

 

3) Too late for PoE, but for the expansion - add more conversation options for wizards pretty please? It felt like cipher or priest were the intended player classes and the rest of them were "filler" classes. 

 

4) Last but not least. Wizards really need some more spell talent options on level up. Like:

* Can auto-cast a selected defensive spell at 50% endurance
* Can gain recovery speed for a limited time only applied to spells (spell haste)

* Less recovery penalty for armor, but only applied to spells and not auto-attacks
* Let us enchant our spellbook
* Choose to lower the number of spells on each spell-tier to boost them. Instead of 4 fireballs for 40 damage, you get 2 fireballs with x2 damage amplification (for example).

 

 

Wizard is not a broken class, its not that bad. But it is IMO a weak class that needs improving. I apologize if this seems like a negative post but I love PoE and I love Wizards, but I feel like Obsidian is not giving them justice

Any thoughts on this? What do you people think? 

 

[Jimmysdabestcop]

If it is a really large and long encounter your Wizard can drop a volume of spells the Cipher cannot reproduce. Because he will drop focus and have to switch to range/melee to build it back up. While your wizard is still firing stuff off.

 

But I think all spell casters Wizards, priests, Druids are slightly more inclined to be buffers/debuffers then straight damage dealers.

[Empyron]

Hey people, first post here ^- ^ (And you are probably thinking, "and of course! A whine thread!"). Hopefully this rather classifies as constructive criticism. Please excuse my poor English (non-native).

 

I love the game to death! I can't get enough of it and I feel horrible not having backed it. I mostly lurk at forums but this is something I think the devs really, really need to fix. I almost feel there is a duty to say this

 

In DnD Wizards are balanced around limited casts, something PoE adopted. In return, these spells can be tremendously powerful. Back with NwN + NwN2 I remember it still...

 

A wizard was truly a wizard. You could summon meteors from the sky to demolish your enemies. You could use finger of death to instantly kill a foe. You could stop time itself and summon Balors from the abyss to cleave your enemies in half with their vorpal blades. You could summon wailing banshees, instill fear, obliterate mobs with fireballs. You were as I said, truly a WIZARD. Running around with haste and fireshield wrecking chaos and death in your wake.

 

In this game I went for Wizard due to my nostalgia for such days. I expected Wizard to be powerful yet physically frail. But near the end I actually rerolled before the last boss. Because the frustration and disappointment over PoE's take on Wizards had completely destroyed any love I thought I would have for the class. I would rather not see the ending than waste it on a wizard in its current state.

 

The problem:

 

1) Wizard spells are on par with Ciphers in damage and CC potential as I see it. Some people have even stated that Cipher spells are superior! Yet Cipher does not have a spell limitation. Wizard spells should be doing at least THRICE the damage they do to justify having limited cast spells. 

 

2) Wizard spells suffer from a huge lack in imagination and variation. You have generic and forgettable spells for CC and damage. Not only are there FEW spells. The spells you do have, most of them serve pretty much the same purposes with a slight variation. 

 

3) Chanters get the summons now. Understandable, to make that class more unique and have its tools. However, if this makes Wizards not being able to have summons, then at the very least give us something more/else.

 

4) Currently there is no reason to roll a wizard instead of a cipher. Maybe wizards can out-damage a cipher if they frontload all their spells in one fight. Maybe. But over the course of say, 10 encounters without rest - a cipher will probably out-dps a wizard ten to one.

 

5) To add insult to injury, ciphers get tons of role-playing options. In my 50 hour first playthrough I did not get one conversation based on the wizard class.

 

So here is my suggestions:

 

1) First, the Wizard needs 1-3 extra spell options per level. Give us something interesting and varied.  

 

2) Boost the power of wizard spells. They SHOULD be powerful. Limited casts remember? There is a reason Wizards were so powerful in DnD, they were poor combatants with their base stats, with poor health-gain, terrible aim and no real combat talents other than spells. It is as if you were afraid to make Wizards too powerful?

 

3) Too late for PoE, but for the expansion - add more conversation options for wizards pretty please? It felt like cipher or priest were the intended player classes and the rest of them were "filler" classes. 

 

4) Last but not least. Wizards really need some more spell talent options on level up. Like:

 

* Can auto-cast a selected defensive spell at 50% endurance

* Can gain recovery speed for a limited time only applied to spells (spell haste)

* Less recovery penalty for armor, but only applied to spells and not auto-attacks

* Let us enchant our spellbook

* Choose to lower the number of spells on each spell-tier to boost them. Instead of 4 fireballs for 40 damage, you get 2 fireballs with x2 damage amplification (for example).

 

 

Wizard is not a broken class, its not that bad. But it is IMO a weak class that needs improving. I apologize if this seems like a negative post but I love PoE and I love Wizards, but I feel like Obsidian is not giving them justice

 

Any thoughts on this? What do you people think? 

 

 

In Skyrim, Wizards are deballed. 

[Mungri]

Wizards are already overpowered enough.

[Luckmann]

Wizards may not be as powerful as Priests and Druids, but any discussion on balance is broken once any one of them reaches 9th and 11th level, at which point they get all their 1st and 2nd rank spells as Per Encounter, respectively.

Personally, I think there's a lot of changes that could be made, mostly dealing with an increased number of spells in the grimoire (by a progression scheme), rebalancing of the whole Spells-as-Per-Encounter mechanic (on a per-class basis, not one-size-fits-all), and more interesting spells for wizards, focusing them on utility, flexibility, and specialization.

It doesn't need straight-up buffs. Spellcasters need to be differentiated and the per-encounter stuff reworked.

As for the 4th point, singling out Ciphers and Priests is unfair. A lot of classes have dialogues here and there, and depending on what you play, it's going to be very lopsided no matter what. Apparently, Kind Wayfarer Paladins have a lot of references if you play them, but I can confirm that Bleak Walkers have extremely little (that I've noticed). Priests of Eothas have a lot right at the beginning, and then it's just sorta forgotten.

Dialogue reactivity to Class (and Deity/Order/etc) and Race needs to be rebalanced across the board, and not just between themselves, but throughout the game.

For the last points-by-points, only thing I can agree on is enchantable spellbooks (in some fashion) and metamagic, because metamagic is cool and could really set Wizards apart from Priests and Druids.

[scrotiemcb]

It is as if they were afraid to make wizards too powerful. Because in most of these games (and especially D&D), they are.

 

I definitely think the 1st and 2nd level spells going "per encounter" needs to be just utterly removed. Which would be a wizard nerf, not a buff.

 

That said, I feel like Wizard is a little underwhelming compared to Druid or Priest (both of which also currently abuse per-encounter spells). I feel like abilities like Arcane Veil and Grimoire Slam are just bad for the game because it takes emphasis off of pure spellcasting, which is what a Wizard should be about.

 

I would much rather see those talents gone, and instead see something along the lines of Wizard-specific metamagic talents. After all, the Grimoire editing mechanic would be a great way to set up metamagic, putting elevated spells in higher level slots in the Grimoire. It would be fairly easy for players to manage, give Wizards a spellcasting edge over the other classes (plus, very confusing with Grimoire), and justify having a large variety of low-level Wizard spells, confident in the knowledge that a lot of those spells will fill higher slots.

Edited April 15, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[Mungri]

Priests / Druids don't have anything spammable as good as fan of flames / slicken / chill fog / minor missiles.

[RevBlue]

2) Wizard spells suffer from a huge lack in imagination and variation. You have generic and forgettable spells for CC and damage. Not only are there FEW spells. The spells you do have, most of them serve pretty much the same purposes with a slight variation.

 

 

Really the only point I strongly agree with. A lot of the spells currently feel interchangable and lack imagination

[Iankas]

I really wish Wizards are able to cast all the spells known to them, just like Druids and Priests.

 

Given the overall power level is similar (if not disadvantageous to the Wizards) there's little reason to restrict Wizards to only 4 spells per spell level. Between having to find Grimoire with the correct spell, spending money to inscribe said spells AND having to select 4 out of 8 spells every level; Wizards do feel like a poor man's Druid.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Iankas

[dododad]

Priests / Druids don't have anything spammable as good as fan of flames / slicken / chill fog / minor missiles.

 

Repulsing Seal + 10 in mechanics skill. You really don't want to know what this does.

 

But I fully agree that three caster classes begin to shine later in the game. In my mind they actually become three most powerful classes for harder difficulties since they are the only ones that can effect the numbers of critters thrown at you.

[xallever]

The problem with wizards is not that it's not powerful, the problem is about how underwhelming they are in terms of small encounters, which makes them rather boring to play for most of the encounters.

 

Perhaps, there could be some sort of Per Encounter spell increments, such as 1 Lvl 1 Spell from level 5 or 6, and then 2 Lvl 1 Spells from the next level or the next 2 levels.

 

It's ridiculous that the Wizard gets to become only really fun to play late game.

[Mungri]

Yes repulsing seal is good, but you need to get all the way to level 12 for that to become per encounter.

 

And does mechanics affect seals? I didnt realize that!

[FlintlockJazz]

Wizards rock.  They may feel a bit limited at first but once you get a few levels under your belt I actually have been finding mine to be essential.  Then again, I love the mechanics of Grimoire and spell selection so I may be biased.

[Rat Salat]

Priests / Druids don't have anything spammable as good as fan of flames / slicken / chill fog / minor missiles.

That druid ice cone is pretty good isn't it?

 

I liked it better than fan of flames, easier to aim.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Rat Salat

[Jimmysdabestcop]

I do agree it is strange Priests/Druids learn all spells when the hit the level but Wizards have to pick or find them. DnD it worked becasue they all had to be found or bought. No one sells Wizard Spells in PoE.

 

I would have rather Wizards have only 6 spells per level and just learn them all. It eliminates a lot of micro management. Could have added a different grimoire element to the game. Where every one you find that is of equal or higher level then yours adds a +1 per rest spell.

 

In the beginning I was running with 2-3 grimoires focused on different spell types. But it became a bore with the micromanaging so I went back to 1. And honestly without scripts for your NPC's there is a lot more managing per encounter when its hard encounters. I don't want to add more stuff to maange.

 

I think Wizards are just as powerful as the other classes but playing them is so much more detailed. I think some of that is uneccessary.

[SlayerDorian]

I agree that they could use a little imagination love.  But power-wise, they are quite good.  Petrify is basically an instant win (though, it should probably be nerfed a bit).

 

Excellent point about there being an overabudnace of cipher converstaion advantages.  This seems unbalanced on a whole, not just wizards.

 

Also, I doubt you were stopping time and summoning too many balor in Badur's Gate 1.  I'd lay odds that that kind of stuff will come with a higher level cap.  Though, again, how do go beyond petrify?   There will probably need to be a significant rework of spell power when more levels get added.

[sparklecat]

My wizard - Aloth - outdamaged everyone else in the party by the end.  Grieving Mother would've caught up before much longer, but still, wizards are definitely not underpowered.  Ciphers are simply overpowered.

[BrickleberryPi]

I'm going to have to say that I heavily disagree with OP on the subject that Wizards are too weak. Sure, the damage might not be crazy stupid high, but wizards are powerful enough as it is and I'm hoping patch 1.05 will address that.

[anameforobsidian]

That said, I feel like Wizard is a little underwhelming compared to Druid or Priest (both of which also currently abuse per-encounter spells). I feel like abilities like Arcane Veil and Grimoire Slam are just bad for the game because it takes emphasis off of pure spellcasting, which is what a Wizard should be about.

 

You have never known the joy of watching your Wizard beat another wizard to death with a book.

Edited April 16, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I am in general agreement with the OP. However, I have surrendered the fight due to:

 

  or perhaps

 

The wizard class is the sword I very vocally fell upon well before and all throughout the beta. You will not get the wizard you know and appreciate because of Mr. Sawyer.

1. Wizards shall not surpass or match any other class in any manner.They shall not have utility spells. They shall not summon. They shall not dominate/charm. They shall not protect others. They shall not single target. They shall not have powerful self protections. So sayeth Mr. Sawyer.
2. Wizards shall only perform AoE debuff and damage, as it was in the MMO. Amen.
3. Just another aspect of the Wizard being reduced to ash, and its qualities scattered across other classes. See bullet 1 & 2 for more.
4. See bullet 1.
5. Ciphers are Mr. Sawyer's pet class to the detriment of the Wizard class.

Here is to hoping they'll do some radical rethinking in PoE 2. With the class design, remedy will not come before then--expansion or otherwise.

[Ouroboros226]

Hey again. Thanks for all the input. 

I get that I may be missing out on some mechanics and considerations that you guys made a point of here. So I stand corrected on some of them.

I still feel that "free use of T1+T2 spells" is not a valid argument though. Because a Wizard's major strength should IMO not be the use/spam of boring 1st and 2nd level spells. In the later levels, having your 1st + 2nd level spells being your most valuable resource as a "powerful wizard" kinda takes away what SHOULD be the strength and fun of one, namely limited but powerful spells. The spells of a wizard (DD ones, not CC) are not near enough in damage to be considered worth it when you consider GAIN vs COST on a multiple encounter travel without rest. 

For example fireball. The damage at endgame for me was 30 damage. I mean come on, thats the same damage as my 2 hander does in an autoattack even though fireball is an AOE. I just think Wizard is missing that limited but powerful feel somehow. Then again maybe I'm wrong or the devs wanted another direction with Wizard. 

One thing I did NOT take into account is that we have yet to unlock or T7-9 spells. Hopefully some "Tremble before me mortals" are introduced in the expansion

[Dongom]

Wizzy isn't that bad except for the wonky spell progression tied in with camping resulting in very tiresome 9 first levels (quite a few hours).

 

More of a game design issue than a balance/performance issue, even though Cipher/Barb still blow them out of the water generally speaking.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Dongom

[Empyron]

Ahem. .. .  

 

My Wizard...

 

Duryan

 

dexterity 10 

might 15 (Left at a low level due to the fact that I didn't know you can't raise stats permanently in game. ((Base stats, I mean)).

intelligence 18

resolve 15

perception 11

constitution 10 

 

Eh,. . . . comments. . . please? 
And why is he in breastplate armor in the beginning? lol.

[elf1]

For example fireball. The damage at endgame for me was 30 damage. I mean come on, thats the same damage as my 2 hander does in an autoattack even though fireball is an AOE. I just think Wizard is missing that limited but powerful feel somehow. Then again maybe I'm wrong or the devs wanted another direction with Wizard.

the damage is low but it's pracically instant cast and recovery time is low, you're supposed to spam it

kill the enemy's reflexes, cast 3 fireballs, fight over

my wizard seems plenty powerfull

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Wizard 1st spells have always been powerful even end game. DnD grease, Chromatic Orb, and Color Spray were still strong at high level. So I wouldn't knock 1st and 2nd level spells. But Priests and Druids also get spells per encounter. So it doesn't make the Wizard class unique.

 

I liked having the Druid better than the Wizard righrt around character level 9. Had to swap Aloth out. I like the Druid spell selection. You are limited to 4 or switching books. That mechanic seems silly. It just adds micromanagin to the wizard class. Not sure if it add universal fun. So not sure why its in the game.

 

The only unique thing the Wizard has compared to other spell casters is the Blast ability. I guess if you create an elf wizard and set him up to focus on range blast attacks he could probably do a lot of damage just auto attacking,

 

Overall I think the Wizard class is as powerful as any other class. But it might not be as fun or as interesting to actually play one.