Paladins: Why the Suck and how to Un-suck them

[Epsilon Rose]

Have you looked at paladin as a ranged damage dealer/support? If he's on the back lines, the other ranged types can benefit from his aura and his flames would benefit from the higher per shot damage of a gun. His high defence also means that, if something breaks through your front line, he can act as a backup tank for your squishies until your actual tank arrives.

 

 

 

So...Paladin's are the bard class of POE. Interesting, I thought that was the Chanter.

Actually, bards in 3.5 can be pretty good.

 

  

Why should Paladins be as good at tanking as Fighters?  If they were, then why would anyone bother playing Fighters?  Every class needs a niche.

 

Furthermore, enough with the drama queen routine.  Just because something isn't perfect does NOT mean that it sucks for crying out loud!!!

What is the paladin's niche and how does he excel at it compared to other classes? Also, why is any critism or suggestion for change drama? I would consider your exhortation to be much more dramatic, though probably not rising to the level of actual drama.

[MadDemiurg]

Chanter with the fire rain chant is a dps powerhouse :D

 

That been said, Dracozzi PC pala is quite good. +6 acc aura and 2x +10 acc buffs per battle on top of it is no joke. Defenses are good too.

 

Basically I see 2 main problems with paladins atm:

• Non PC paladins are much weaker. If you want to use a paladin it MUST be a PC. Maybe non PC paladins should either get bonuses from PC's alignment or just get increases with level.
• They don't have as many engage slots as fighters for tanking. Adding +engage to some paladin ability or buffing hold the line to +2 would be welcome

 

Also, maybe aura range can be buffed (bit too small atm).

 

This is more or less in line with OP's suggestions, but not so dramatic.

 

Otherwise, I think they are fine.

Edited April 12, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Crucis]

The problem here is that Paladins don't have a distinct role in this game, and they get outclassed in every individual role.

 

Support? Priest is better.

DPS? Literally every class except maybe the chanter is better.

Tank? Fighter is better.

 

Having a Paladin in your group is literally a detriment, because there is at least one class out there that can do what you set them up for BETTER.

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

Saying that they don't have a "distinct role" is just another way of saying they're not the "best" at something.  So friggin' what!!!  They are NOT a detriment to anyone except someone who's looking to min-max their way to a way over the top, totally OP party.   This is why you see the developers of PoE and BG/BG2 before that include NPCs that weren't perfect, over the top OP characters.  Every class and every NPC doesn't have to be the best at something or a paradigm of perfect stat-hood for the game to be entirely playable with those NPC and those classes.

 

Every character in the party (every player on the team) doesn't have to be a freakin' all-star!

[Infares]

Chanter with the fire rain chant is a dps powerhouse :D

 

That been said, Dracozzi PC pala is quite good. +6 acc aura and 2x +10 acc buffs per battle on top of it is no joke. Defenses are good too.

 

Basically I see 2 main problems with paladins atm:

• Non PC paladins are much weaker. If you want to use a paladin it MUST be a PC. Maybe non PC paladins should either get bonuses from PC's alignment or just get increases with level.
• They don't have as many engage slots as fighters for tanking. Adding +engage to some paladin ability or buffing hold the line to +2 would be welcome

 

Also, maybe aura range can be buffed (bit too small atm).

 

This is more or less in line with OP's suggestions, but not so dramatic.

 

Otherwise, I think they are fine.

Or have a paladin-only item you find later in the game that adds a couple engagement slots for free would be cool.

 

Giving priests bonuses based on the PC's alignment even if not the PC would be great too, we're in agreement there.

[Brimsurfer]

 

No, paladins are not the best tanks in the game.  That's just absurd.  I've tried and tried to figure out how to insert a paladin into a party but, in the end, some other class is usually better suited to the role I'm looking for.  I think paladins in their current incarnation are best suited for escort duty at the stronghold.

 

Oh boo-hoo.  So paladins aren't the best at something.  For crying out loud, that does NOT mean that they're not ill-suited to being in a party.  Everyone on a party doesn't have to be the best at something.  Jeez. 

 

 

I have Pallegine in my party.  Would I be better off with another Fighter instead of her to be a second tank?  Maybe yes, maybe no.  Would this supposed second fighter be a better pure tank, similar to Eder?  Probably.  OTOH, he wouldn't be giving the party the various bonuses that a padadin can constantly provide. 

 

Is that enough to justify using a paladin rather than a second fighter?  Perhaps not to some people, but a second (particularly a custom made) fighter in a party that already has Eder would seem boring to me.  Seems to me that if you want a second tank in the party, it should be of another class, whether that's a paladin, a barbarian, a monk, etc.  And it's also about play style and role playing preferences.  I happen to like paladins and like having them in my parties.  They very well may not be the most powerful or efficient choice, but I still like having a paladin in my part regardless.  Other people may love monks or barbs in this slot. And if so, good for them.

 

 

Thats exactly the point that you are comparing usefulness of first paladin to second fighter, comparison to first fighter is totally out of question......

 

EDIT: Also read on my last post in this topic, you'll have better idea of what I am trying to say....

Edited April 12, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Infares]

 

The problem here is that Paladins don't have a distinct role in this game, and they get outclassed in every individual role.

 

Support? Priest is better.

DPS? Literally every class except maybe the chanter is better.

Tank? Fighter is better.

 

Having a Paladin in your group is literally a detriment, because there is at least one class out there that can do what you set them up for BETTER.

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

Saying that they don't have a "distinct role" is just another way of saying they're not the "best" at something.  So friggin' what!!!  They are NOT a detriment to anyone except someone who's looking to min-max their way to a way over the top, totally OP party.   This is why you see the developers of PoE and BG/BG2 before that include NPCs that weren't perfect, over the top OP characters.  Every class and every NPC doesn't have to be the best at something or a paradigm of perfect stat-hood for the game to be entirely playable with those NPC and those classes.

 

Every character in the party (every player on the team) doesn't have to be a freakin' all-star!

Synergy and homogeneity are actually the paladin's true gifts he brings to the table. If you already have a chanter and a priest, adding a paladin is friggin' awesome. Holy buffs.

 

If the paladin is a tank, he'll bring those buffs with competent off-tanking alongside another tank. If he's not a tank, he's at least a remarkably hardy midliner with a pike that can switch to a sword 'n' board set and help your backline squishies get out of engagement after some timely CC.

 

No, he doesn't buff or heal or tank or dps as well as other classes designed for those things, but none of them can fill multiple niches simultaneously without exploiting One Stands Alone or Retaliation builds in general (lol), and if you have 5 people in your party and all the major bases are already covered, a paladin adds to the group's power on all fronts without overlapping.

[Svirfneblin]

Faith and Conviction bonuses are cool, but having them be unobtainable to non-PC Paladins is a problem. Making them based off the PC would work well enough (if a paladin is with a group that doesn't represent his/her ideals, they probably are not doing such a great job). 

[Crucis]

 

Why should Paladins be as good at tanking as Fighters?  If they were, then why would anyone bother playing Fighters?  Every class needs a niche.

 

Furthermore, enough with the drama queen routine.  Just because something isn't perfect does NOT mean that it sucks for crying out loud!!!

What is the paladin's niche and how does he excel at it compared to other classes? Also, why is any critism or suggestion for change drama? I would consider your exhortation to be much more dramatic, though probably not rising to the level of actual drama.

 

 

It's not the criticism I'm criticizing.  It's the totally over-the-top nature of the criticism.  It's one thing to say that something's not good enough and you wish that it was improved.  And it's quite another thing to say that the because it's not good enough that it therefore SUCKS or is trash, or any other of the various over the top ways that I've seen in posts on this forum.

 

For crying out loud, just because something's not the best or isn't perfect doesn't mean that it sucks.  Just as in the same way that a player who's not an all-star in baseball or basketball (for example) also doesn't suck, simply because he's not an all-star.  Or put another way, the way that the drama queens criticize things, one could say that if you're not an "A" student then you suck ... when anyone with a clue KNOWS that that's ridiculous.

 

There's a difference between honest and measured criticism and over-the-top, "it's perfect or it sucks" criticism.  A vast difference.

[RunningWolf]

I find it strange how obsidian managed to make all classes feel inferior to BG counterparts exept druid. Anyone knows what Josh favorite class is?

[Vasya]

If the paladin is a tank, he'll bring those buffs with competent off-tanking alongside another tank. If he's not a tank, he's at least a remarkably hardy midliner with a pike that can switch to a sword 'n' board set and help your backline squishies get out of engagement after some timely CC.

 

No, he doesn't buff or heal or tank or dps as well as other classes designed for those things, but none of them can fill multiple niches simultaneously without exploiting One Stands Alone or Retaliation builds in general (lol), and if you have 5 people in your party and all the major bases are already covered, a paladin adds to the group's power on all fronts without overlapping.

 

Synergy and homogeneity are actually the paladin's true gifts he brings to the table. If you already have a chanter and a priest, adding a paladin is friggin' awesome. Holy buffs.

 

That's good, but the moment you'll try to do something challenging, like taking some fight on potd underleveled, paladin goes from "fill multiple niches simultaneously without exploiting" to being nearly useless. You'll suddenly notice, that even 3rd tank would be more useful than him.

[CriticalFailure]

I don't care about being "the best at x" or those silly MMO over-specialisations, and I like hybrids. However, I do find paladins' special abilities underwhelming (except Faith and Conviction, assuming we're talking about the main character). If those abilities were a bit stronger and/or had some more uses per day, that'd probably do the trick.

[Eggnog]

Actually, my response above was to an over-the-top claim that paladins are the best tanks in the game which, of course, they're not.  It doesn't mean they suck but unless the paladin is the Watcher, there are better classes suited to do whatever it is someone may want a paladin to do.  It has nothing to do with whether paladins are the best, but if you can find a class that is better suited to do a certain job in a party, why use the paladin?  As the Watcher, though, a paladin can have some pretty good RP going. 

[Longknife]

There are 11 classes and the party can hold a max of 6 characters.  No matter how you adjust the classes, they aren't all going to make the cut.

 

"Fighters are better tanks."  "Monks are better dps."  "Priests are better support."  Paladins give you some of all of that, and the ability to somewhat adjust the balance between the three to suit your tastes.

 

 

 

 

Two things:

 

 

Firstly, there is some degree of strategy and logic in getting different characters that all specialize in different jobs. For example let's imagine a party where instead of a pure tank with a pure support priest and a pure damage wiz/cipher/whatever, you have all three being middle of the road. The result? Chaos breaks out when your tank dies (aka enemies aren't collected in a bundle), your priest is buffing slower, and for any fight where the enemy never even touches your damage-dealers, any defense is moot and all you've done is killed slower than you could've. Specialization in that regard can be very effective. Likewise it of course makes sense to add 30% damage onto the guy dealing big 50 damage AOE hits in a matter of 5 seconds instead of adding 30% damage onto a guy who does maybe 30 damage to one target in the same amount of time.

  Second and more importantly, it's not that I think a jack-of-all-trades can't work, but rather I feel the Paladin is currently too weak on all fronts. Imagine it as though, for example, a Fighter is A+ on Tank, C- on damage dealing and B on support, on the opposite end a Wizard is A on damage, D- on tanking and B+ on support, and then a Paladin is a pure C- in every category. I would like to see those bumped up to at least straight B's, because that's possible while still being completely balanced.

 

 

Wow, you're still butthurt that other people don't think fighters are the best tank in the game?  No need to take your anger our on Paladins, who are excellent support tank hybrid class.

 

 

Today I learned there are people on these forums assuming all kinds of stuff about me for the most random reasons imagineable, to the point I'm not sure what the hell they're even talking about. :U

 

 

 

It's not the criticism I'm criticizing.  It's the totally over-the-top nature of the criticism.

 

 

Yknow I do it over-the-top specifically to annoy people like you who can't take a joke worth a damn? I'm 100% serious here.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Longknife

[MaxDamage]

The paldins have sworn enemy which is ballzy especially against the single tough bosses. Accuracy and damage way ahead of the fighter. They also have a nice healing power, resurrection power, kinda weak but still nice aura and the sworn enemy is very ballz.

 

I have 2 fighters and a paladin. The paladin is might/dex/con/int maxed 2 handed damager. And it isnt trying to simulate a fighter tank, instead it went for max damage. maybe the revive scrolls are a bit abundant for the game as a whole and the resurrection the paladins get isnt this valuable as a result. Palas could ve been more useful if you couldnt buy resurrection scrolls. But still res power and negame afflictions power are good.

[dukefx]

Accuracy and damage way ahead of a fighter? Excuse me?

[Longknife]

The paldins have sworn enemy which is ballzy especially against the single tough bosses

 

And Sworn Enemy will get used how often...? It's nice, but it's something you might touch maybe five times per game, assuming you don't spam it on enemies it's unneccesary for out of a demand to make it useful.

 

Accuracy and damage way ahead of the fighter.

 

 

No.

 

Infact even a Fighter has superior damage capacity, it's just unlikely you'll realize this potential because given the choice between an offensive Fighter and a defensive one, the defensive role is far more vital to the squad and the Fighter specializes in it whereas an offensive fighter would still get outpaced by the damage dealing classes. But yeah, if you made a Fighter and a Paladin and built both purely for damage, the Fighter has a couple talents that up it's hit percent by a huge margin, temporarily boost accuracy or let it attack faster. Paladin just has Flames of Devotion and Sworn Enemy, plus any Modals they might have. They'd look very similar, but Fighter's gonna have more control skills (Knock down) to up it's damage output.

 

 

 

They also have a nice healing power

 

 

It's 30 endurance. It's....not that great.

Upgraded it does more, but that's again part of the problem. Paladin has numerous abilities which are subpar and need an additional talent to upgrade them and make them....respectable. Still not amazing, but decent. The result is to service any one job, you're spending twice the levels every other class is spending, and you're STILL doing mediocre. Flames of Devotion has the exact same problem, as does the Paladin's Faith.

 

 

 

resurrection power

 

 

It's good, this one I do like, but it's also not irreplaceable. Both Priest and Chanter get the same ability. Chanter's is a flippin' AOE whereas Priest can already do much of the same things Paladin can except 100% better, so the question remains "why not just bring a second Priest?" Seriously, name something a Paladin can do that a Priest can't and you'll find the list rather small, or most of the things listed will be things that a Paladin can do consistently (tank) but a Priest can also do via skills in an emergency battle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me put it this way:

 

 

If you go to the Pillars of Eternity Gamepedia, classes get listed with different roles. Wizard and Druid are "mob ruler," Fighter, Barb and Monk are "Front Line," Cipher, Ranger and Rogue are "Heavy Hitter," and Chanter, Priest and Paladin are "Leaders."

 

Try to imagine a squad where you only bring one of each type. AKA, imagine you're forced to choose between Wizard and Druid, to choose between Fighter Barb and Monk, to choose between Cipher, Ranger and Rogue....

 

If you have to choose one of each type to build a four man party? You will never choose Paladin for your leader slot. Chanter and Priest is a toss-up, cause even though Priest feels like a staple, a Chanter's summons can single-handedly turn a fight around. Paladin? You'd never in a million years choose to skip Chanter and Priest to bring a Paladin. That's exactly the problem.

[MaxDamage]

The ability gives pala +15 acc (for a total 10 above fighter's) and i think 1.2 x attack speed vs selected target. This can be extremely much more dps esp against high deflection opponents. Like you know 2 times diffirence 

So pala can make a very good focus attacker especially when maxed on dps. Against the bosses you want to defeat especially .

 

res power on a priest is ~ 2 character levels later then on a pala btw

 

the +6 attack aura is bit redundant with the priest,s lv1 spell

Edited April 12, 2015 by MaxDamage

[dukefx]

+5 higher base and +10 with disciplined barrage pretty much makes accuracy equal. As for damage, fighters can get +25% damage passively, also x1.2 min. damage against everything without having to activate anything.

[Ichthyic]

as an aside, if you want another character to grab engagement like a fighter, give them the shatterstar warhammer as well as hold the line.

now you're at 3, which is more than enough.

I agree with Gromnir. buff the already existing choices for the paladin as a support character, and that would more than make this class a valuable member to any team.

how about making the auras level up?  every 3 levels, you get another point of damage reduction, or another 2 points of deflection, or another 2 points of accuracy, etc.  or maybe you could even customize your aura!  start off with a combination boost to each, and then every 3 levels, choose a direction to improve it.  So, say start at 2dr, 3 accuracy, and 3 deflection, and every 3 levels you get to choose to add another point to dr, or 2 to deflection, or 2 to accuracy.  then it would keep growing in benefit as long as you have your paladin, through this game and all sequels, AND everyone would have custom auras that suit their playstyle!

make the liberatiing exhortion a party wide effect instead of single target.  allow paladins to choose this, or the effect that defuffs enemies, regardless of whether they chose lay on hands or not.

just subtle changes like that are all that's needed imo.

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Ichthyic

[MaxDamage]

Disciplined barrage is a bit short lived with 1 x encounter 15 seconds. You may want much more then that in the big boss fights. Its like 3-4 2h hits?

 

Now, the accuracy system isnt very explained in the game and you may want to know how much better is +10 here you go: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=421746362

 

If you take fighter w/o disciplined barrage (lasts for like 3 hits?) and compare with the sworn enemy pala, the pala will be getting like ~1.5 times better DPS against the Adra dragon.

 

I think Pala could qualify as a single target assassin with a bunch of support abilities.

 

Btw how many res scrolls can you buy throughout the whole game?

Edited April 12, 2015 by MaxDamage

[dukefx]

"until dead" is even shorter than 15 seconds almost always. My dual sabre fighter attacks every second. I don't bring a paladin to boss fights at all because practically every other class brings a lot more food to the table.

[Exoduss]

I always run paladin + chanter tanks a priest healer and 3 dpsers from now on having all those buffs on your 3 dpsers is just way better than having fighter tank and skip paladins buffs and utility also for a tank all you need to do is not die while holding enemies and paladin does that just fine but gives great buffs meanwhile , imo bigger problem of the game is that priests are a must have in a proper party they cant be replaced

[MaxDamage]

Priest buffs largely override paladin's accuracy/crit aura though. And they dont stack.

Edited April 12, 2015 by MaxDamage

[Francis Ironwood]

What buffs does the paladin actually have? The aura? People seem to bring up the utility of paladins and the buffs all the time, but the only buff my paladin has is the aura. Not really worth it to bring a paladin for such a "great" buff. Is there some paladin buffs i've missed while playing?

[Ruminate]

 

 

They also have a nice healing power

 

 

It's 30 endurance. It's....not that great.

Upgraded it does more, but that's again part of the problem. Paladin has numerous abilities which are subpar and need an additional talent to upgrade them and make them....respectable. Still not amazing, but decent. The result is to service any one job, you're spending twice the levels every other class is spending, and you're STILL doing mediocre. Flames of Devotion has the exact same problem, as does the Paladin's Faith.

 

Its not a 30 endurance heal.

The description on Lay on Hands says ~30 endurance heal, but what it doesn't tell you is how that interacts with its 5 second duration.

It ticks once on initial hit, again every ~3 seconds, and a final tick when the duration ends. With 10 might and 10 int, it lasts 5 seconds and the total heal is somewhere between 50-60.

 

 

+5 higher base and +10 with disciplined barrage pretty much makes accuracy equal. As for damage, fighters can get +25% damage passively, also x1.2 min. damage against everything without having to activate anything.

 

Darcozzi Liberating Exortation gives another +10 accuracy for 20 seconds. It also blocks all negative debuffs that may hinder your damage for the duration. The Paladin can pop it on themselves twice per encounter.

 

Its a shame the Paladin can't pop their attack speed buff on themselves, though.