Ruminate

Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty. While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses. You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3 Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS. The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it) Why is recovery speed modifiers overvalued. That post clearly shows an attack speed and a recovery speed. I have also read elsewhere that sawyer started dexterity ONLY effects attack speed nothing else Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)

If Swift Strike's attack speed is actually recovery speed (i'm going to test this myself later today), then i'm at a loss on how you think the fighter's -20% bonus can achieve a faster recovery time in heavy armor over the monk's -25% bonus.

You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3 Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS. The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)

Can't say these are necessarily sine-qua-non, but the abilities I would dearly miss if I played another class are Knock Down, Armored Grace, and the Specialization/Mastery chain. Sundering Blows is also pretty sweet (even though I still have to figure out what the icon is meant to represent.) Force of Anguish can knockdown more than twice per encounter. Swift Strikes gives 20% attack speed instead of only recovery. Turning Wheel can give up to 50% multiplicative burn damage as opposed to 25% additive weapon damage.

Before 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consisted of a fighter and a paladin. After 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consists of two paladins. Even if the fighter's Defender was buffed again, i'd still prefer two paladins for the new Immolation ability, post-buff double auras, and 4x Lay on Hands. (frees up the priest to cast other spells like Circle of Protection, which doesn't stack with Vigorous Defense, or knockdown groups of enemies for 10-20 seconds with a single Repulse Seal) Fighters need a niche. +2 engagements isn't enough of a niche.

Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter. Other classes suffer from action economy. Chanters before ramping up to an invocation have "realistic" usage of items and tanking ability. Additionally scroll use on a paladin with zealous focus can be a decent opener since the priest cast realization isnt fast enough to be gained for scroll casts. Priests have 20 base accuracy, so they're irrelevant. Monks have spare action economy at the start of a fight, during the time when using a scroll is most advantageous. They are most likely to max might and they start with 30 accuracy. I'm not saying the Priest, Chanter, or Paladin don't have other kinds of advantages, but anything outside of the "best" is irrelevant, no?

Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter.

DoT stacking or not stacking is irrelevant. You don't use DoTs for the sake of it being a DoT. You use DoTs because it deals damage. Damage removes the opposition. Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers will remove the opposition faster than a Chanter (and at a much earlier level than 9). Whether you believe it doesn't have an accuracy roll is irrelevant. It does have an accuracy roll. (and because it has an accuracy roll, giving them medium or large shields will also reduce its accuracy.) Yes, Chanter is one of the best solo classes. Solo plays into their niche: long encounters ....but utilizing their niche in a party means the party wasn't very strong to begin with. I'm not saying the Chanter is bad. That isn't my position. I'm just using the same logic some people use on other classes. If certain people, who use this kind of logic, think someone else using it is irrational or misrepresenting the topic at hand when someone else uses it, then.... (not saying you do, but there are certain people in this thread that can't see their own reflection in the mirror)

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage. Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support. I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun. My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring. From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage. A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW. From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage.

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.

A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing. A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura. Is the glass half full? Is the glass half empty? Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?

Vile Loner's Lance +5 accuracy because its a 1h spear -5 all defense for 5s (modified by INT) when you hit the enemy Its cheap. Can be bought at the Salty Mast, Ondra's Gift.

I was going to mention the cipher with tactical meld. Seems to be on the same level (base 5 lower but +20 vs +15) Oh, right. Tactical Meld is a unique accuracy buff, too. This also mean ciphers blow away all the other casters in spell accuracy, too.... hmm...

I also prefer Sworn enemy over Reviving Exhortation and taking advantage of on-hit weapons. While active buffs do not stack with other active buffs that are mechanically similar, there is no other active accuracy buff that is mechanically similar to Sworn Enemy. This means they have the highest ceiling for melee accuracy out of all the other classes. (Reckless Assault does not stack with Devotions of the Faithful because they both grant melee accuracy, in case anyone was going to mention the rogue)

What equipment were you using? What equipment was dukefx using? What level were you? Was level was dukefx? How did you build your character? How did dukefx build his character? Too many knee-jerk reactions.