What ending did you choose?

[sparklecat]

Hylea's ending, incidentally, is also a really good way to continue supporting traditional faith in the gods, which my priestess was good with.

[Katarack21]

Could be worse than coming to sentience and remembering being chained for years. Could suddenly come to sentience only to realize theirs a hungry, raging animal fighting for control of their body...and they remember *eating their parents*.

[Katarack21]

Here's the problem: None of the gods plans is really sound because none of them take into account anything beyond that individual gods pantheon. Hylea is a great example; she wants you to put the souls of the children back into the children, but I don't think she wants to because it's "good". Her portfolio is about helping and loving children; she never thinks or worries about the consequences of the action, or the wider societal implications, because that's not what she was made to care about.

The gods aren't gods; their just ideals given shape. The philosophies and moral considerations of a society given form and power; they are no more or less flawed than the philosophies and ideals that were incarnated. All of them seem narrowly focused, concerned only and entirely with this small portion of the world that they were incarnated to ward over.

**** 'em all.

[Wulfburk]

Gratz Obsidian, it was a damn great ending!

 

Chose Hylia, it was the more appropriate choice for my character.

[sparklecat]

Could be worse than coming to sentience and remembering being chained for years. Could suddenly come to sentience only to realize theirs a hungry, raging animal fighting for control of their body...and they remember *eating their parents*.

Bear in mind that they're not going to be socialized simply because they gain souls; there's no reason to think having eaten their parents will upset them any more than having eaten anyone else, or for that matter that remembering eating people will be especially traumatic for them at all.  They won't have learned any sort of morality yet, either; arguably they'll be as much helpless blank slates as the infants, doomed to die in the wilderness unless the animal soul sustains them or they're found by others.

[dukefx]

Here's the problem: None of the gods plans is really sound because none of them take into account anything beyond that individual gods pantheon. Hylea is a great example; she wants you to put the souls of the children back into the children, but I don't think she wants to because it's "good". Her portfolio is about helping and loving children; she never thinks or worries about the consequences of the action, or the wider societal implications, because that's not what she was made to care about.

 

The gods aren't gods; their just ideals given shape. The philosophies and moral considerations of a society given form and power; they are no more or less flawed than the philosophies and ideals that were incarnated. All of them seem narrowly focused, concerned only and entirely with this small portion of the world that they were incarnated to ward over.

 

**** 'em all.

That is absolutely true. This is why we are arguing about the endings. We can see past their narrowmindedness, because as you said, they only care about their own "portfolio".

[Hassat Hunter]

Galawain.

 

Seemed the most reasonable option of the gods, and I made a promise then... Damn my lawful good character build!

But even with the other options added later, this seemed the best to me, except maybe for adding them to the cycle.

[Katarack21]

 

Here's the problem: None of the gods plans is really sound because none of them take into account anything beyond that individual gods pantheon. Hylea is a great example; she wants you to put the souls of the children back into the children, but I don't think she wants to because it's "good". Her portfolio is about helping and loving children; she never thinks or worries about the consequences of the action, or the wider societal implications, because that's not what she was made to care about.

 

The gods aren't gods; their just ideals given shape. The philosophies and moral considerations of a society given form and power; they are no more or less flawed than the philosophies and ideals that were incarnated. All of them seem narrowly focused, concerned only and entirely with this small portion of the world that they were incarnated to ward over.

 

**** 'em all.

That is absolutely true. This is why we are arguing about the endings. We can see past their narrowmindedness, because as you said, they only care about their own "portfolio".

 

Right? I really wish their was a "screw the gods" option, maybe eating the souls or maybe using them to incarnate a new god in opposition or something.

[aimlessgun]

Wael is the closest to a 'screw the gods' option. I was a Priest of Wael (and still have trouble figuring out what that entails) but I also chose Wael's option because I tired of all the philosophizing and was in a 'screw this' frame of mind. 

[Katarack21]

I concur. I wouldn't be surprised if, near the end of the expansion or possibly second game, there's some sort of point where being loyal to Skaen now, and doing what he told you to do now, results in Skaen making Woedica and all the other gods choke on their own whips when the time is truly ripe.

[Failion]

Pantheon of gods always tend to be selfish douchebags and that is exactly the vibe I got from the pillars of eternity gods, it doesn't help their case that they also not even real gods. So I gave the souls to Woedica, there needs to be one big boss like Zues or Odin to police the rest of the kids in the playground. 

[Grand_Commander13]

Isn't that like picking a fox to guard the henhouse from the other foxes? Except in this case the foxes were only eating one hen every day anyway, so all you've done is decide who gets to eat the hen every day.

[dirigible]

 

 

Those souls finally "won" their body and Berath wants to put them on the waiting list again. Who knows when they will get another body again?! Just look at how many creatures (mostly kith, and wilderers) have been killed either by your party, rioters, undead, self righteous idiots or by Thaos and co. All those creatures won't be fathers and mothers anymore. Think of how long those souls would have to wait with such a decrease in population and therefore lack of reproduction. This is wrong both economically (I consider souls and bodies goods to make it simple) and morally which leads me to the conclusion that Berath is total moron and can't even do his job right. Technically he should support Hylea, because that's how they will get back to the cycle properly.

1. The events of Dyrwood are a small part of what's going on in the world. There are plenty of babies still being made elsewhere.

2. Even if they did have to wait a while, so what? Is their soul going to get bored, while it sits in the ether? There's no evidence that souls have any form of consciousness when they leave the world and return to the cycle.

3. Putting souls back into the bodies would be even worse. They would AT BEST be children with the minds of newborn infants and AT WORST be children with memories of being chained for years along with hundreds of other lost souls. Putting them into the cycle allows them to be born again as healthy, normal children with no memory of what happened.

 

1. There's also plenty of war being made elsewhere. People are savages and have a low lifespan, even elves. Even if someone was immortal, that wouldn't mean they'd be invulnerable. Most die before reaching old age.

2. Your main char is a watcher and you are telling me souls do not have a consciousness? At the end you are literally talking to a soul imprisoned in a huge adra pillar and you are telling me they have no consciousness? Souls are being ordered to help you descend into a huge pit. Not only consciousness, but that looks to me that they even have some kind of ghostly body on top of that.

3. Far from worse, but I agree that this isn't the best solution either. Their trauma will be forever remembered whether you put them back where they belong or let them rot in the ether for maybe a few seconds, maybe an eternity until they find a new body. Those people in Noonfrost trying to get to Rymrgand's domain... you should hear them out for once. They are sick and tired of the cycle.

 

2. All the souls you talk to in the game are in the world. Either they're currently inside a body, or they're trapped and separated from the cycle. Not only that, it's repeatedly stated that when a soul dies and returns to the cycle it forgets its past.

3. The Noonfrost elves are an exception because they are repeatedly reincarnated into the same place with all of their memories intact. This is the exact opposite of how it happens for most people. Most people are reincarnated into a different location and have 0 memory of anything happening before they were born. That seems like the most merciful choice for the hollowborn souls, to me.

[Naevius]

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

[Yria]

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

And what would you accomplish by that? People all around the world consider the gods to be a very important part of their lives. Simply turning the gods off, with all their divine power, with all the blessings they grant their followers, might not be a wise idea. 

[Rosveen]

 

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

And what would you accomplish by that? People all around the world consider the gods to be a very important part of their lives. Simply turning the gods off, with all their divine power, with all the blessings they grant their followers, might not be a wise idea. 

A lot of things we can do in the game aren't particularly wise or benevolent, some with long-lasting consequences, yet we can do them all the same. In that final moment we hold thousands of souls in our hands, capable of erasing them from existence if we wish, capable of bringing great joy or great pain to thousands of parents. Is destroying the gods so much different? I don't think turning off the machine would actually destroy them, they aren't trapped inside it like the lost souls are, but even so, we already ruined one Engwithan machine in the Heritage Hill, why not break another?

[Katarack21]

 

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

And what would you accomplish by that? People all around the world consider the gods to be a very important part of their lives. Simply turning the gods off, with all their divine power, with all the blessings they grant their followers, might not be a wise idea. 

 

There's no divine power. They're just sharing their soul-power. They're not gods; they're Engwithan constructs designed to incarnate Engwithan prinicples and ideals. Destroy them, free everybody from the chains of Engwithan control.

[Sonntam]

 

 

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

And what would you accomplish by that? People all around the world consider the gods to be a very important part of their lives. Simply turning the gods off, with all their divine power, with all the blessings they grant their followers, might not be a wise idea. 

 

There's no divine power. They're just sharing their soul-power. They're not gods; they're Engwithan constructs designed to incarnate Engwithan prinicples and ideals. Destroy them, free everybody from the chains of Engwithan control.

 

You forget that people believed in gods long before the Engwithans came up with this brilliant idea. 

 

People would make up new gods and worship them. Or maybe just keep worshipping the old ones (even if they die like Eothas). After all, one does not have to believe everything some bloke from the street says. And if gods fall silent, it's not like people will stop praying to them. Some will, but in the end faith is it's own reward for many. Especially since we are talking about a setting where your own conviction can make you stronger and change the world around you (paladins, priests).

Edited April 12, 2015 by Sonntam

[sparklecat]

I quite liked that about my Eder's ending; he basically just decides that his god being a) a creation and b) dead doesn't matter.

Edited April 12, 2015 by sparklecat

[themadhatter114]

Was the Hollowborn epidemic going to end regardless of the players actions? Did Thaos have enough souls for he already? Woedica doesn't seem like she was getting shorted when you gave her the available souls and ended the continued gathering of more souls. Was killing Thaos a completely hollow act if you take that ending, or would Woadoca eventually need more souls?

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

I was upset we had no option to break the last machine, or somehow 'turn the gods off'. Maybe in the sequel...

And what would you accomplish by that? People all around the world consider the gods to be a very important part of their lives. Simply turning the gods off, with all their divine power, with all the blessings they grant their followers, might not be a wise idea. 

 

There's no divine power. They're just sharing their soul-power. They're not gods; they're Engwithan constructs designed to incarnate Engwithan prinicples and ideals. Destroy them, free everybody from the chains of Engwithan control.

 

You forget that people believed in gods long before the Engwithans came up with this brilliant idea. 

 

People would make up new gods and worship them. Or maybe just keep worshipping the old ones (even if they die like Eothas). After all, one does not have to believe everything some bloke from the street says. And if gods fall silent, it's not like people will stop praying to them. Some will, but in the end faith is it's own reward for many. Especially since we are talking about a setting where your own conviction can make you stronger and change the world around you (paladins, priests).

 

Yeah, but these aren't natural generated gods. It's like if I designed a computer AI, called it Jehova, filled with the teachings of the Westboro Baptist Chuch, and told everybody this is God and you have to do what it says. They're just constructs; their philosophies and ideals given form. ENGWITHAN philosophies and ideals given form.

 

There's no gods here. It's just a long-dead empire trying to impose their concepts of what's important on future societies.

[sparklecat]

Yeah, but these aren't natural generated gods. It's like if I designed a computer AI, called it Jehova, filled with the teachings of the Westboro Baptist Chuch, and told everybody this is God and you have to do what it says. They're just constructs; their philosophies and ideals given form. ENGWITHAN philosophies and ideals given form.

 

There's no gods here. It's just a long-dead empire trying to impose their concepts of what's important on future societies.

 

How's that any different than what there was before the Engwithans created them, though?  Except that these "gods" actually exist, while the ones the past societies made up based on their philosophies and ideals to guide future generations didn't.

 

Destroy them and new false gods would take their place.  Which might well be better, yes, given what Woedica did to gain power, but that's not because they're second-class gods due to how they came to be; it's simply because they're not very good for the world.

[Katarack21]

 

Yeah, but these aren't natural generated gods. It's like if I designed a computer AI, called it Jehova, filled with the teachings of the Westboro Baptist Chuch, and told everybody this is God and you have to do what it says. They're just constructs; their philosophies and ideals given form. ENGWITHAN philosophies and ideals given form.

 

There's no gods here. It's just a long-dead empire trying to impose their concepts of what's important on future societies.

 

How's that any different than what there was before the Engwithans created them, though?  Except that these "gods" actually exist, while the ones the past societies made up based on their philosophies and ideals to guide future generations didn't.

 

Destroy them and new false gods would take their place.  Which might well be better, yes, given what Woedica did to gain power, but that's not because they're second-class gods due to how they came to be; it's simply because they're not very good for the world.

 

The old god's were societal constructs, but they were not incarnate entities that actively maintain and continue their power structure. A religion set up and maintained by believers is subject to change over time as societies drift. Incarnate philosophies who pretend to be gods actively maintain their set-up and force the continuation of their own worship. What the Engwithans did was create a system where their own philosphies would be forcefully maintained to influence and control future societies.

[Katarack21]

Think of all the times the Gods have interfered directly in the world. All the Effigy's that have upset political structures, all the times Ondra's Hair's have interfered with shipping routes, all the the knowledge dispersed and hidden by Wael.

Then realize that all this control and manipulation is the direct result of Engwithan's giving their own philosophies power with the express intent of "guiding the world", or in other words imposing their views on future generations.

[StrangeCat]

Had to go wtih the Grieving Mother on that one.