[balancing] Cipher/Chanter too strong?

[Luj1]

 

 

 

 

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

 

 

I disagree with this. I play on hard and my enemies usually die before my Chanter can get off a 3-Phrase chant, much less a 5-Phrase drake.

 

It might seem OP, but if you run a party with a Druid/Chanter/Wiz combo who just blows up the entire screen before your chanter can even get 2 phrases....well...lol.

 

 

So what are you disagreeing with.... You can kill faster than 6 Chanters would? That's fine, but it's still OP as hell.

 

I love people who seldom think before they post.

 

 

I'm just saying I don't think it's that OP.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

That's fine.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Luj1

[jackjack]

The balance issues need some attention. I stopped playing PoE after I ruined my character with the equip bug, and these issues make me want to wait a bit more.

I don't think your character is ruined. The patch retroactively fixes this bug on current playthroughs, is it not?

[Atheosis]

I'm really not overly fond of nerfs in a single player game unless they are absolutely necessary.  I feel it's more important to buff things like rangers, wizards, monks, and bows than to nerf stuff that is actually effective. 

[scrotiemcb]

The chanter class design is facepalm-worthy. The best phrases, in actuality, are the first you learn; they add a stack in 4 seconds, not 8. So since the summons of the class are the payoff, that's what you end up using. All game long.

 

The smart thing to do would have been to make the first-level phrases 8 seconds, and the final tier 4 seconds. And have all Invocations require one less phrase. And utterly forbid repeating the same phrase twice in a row. So you'd start with, say, one phantom after 16 seconds of combat, and over time what you'd need to summon that phantom would drop from 16 seconds to 14, then 12, then 10, and finally 8. Or you could save up for new, more powerful invocations you've learned since.

 

Chanters are very powerful if you stick to the short phrases. If you're using anything 6 seconds or longer, that's why you think they aren't a bit overpowered. (They undoubtedly are in the early parts of the game.)

 

To be honest, I don't think ciphers are that amazing. To me they feel a LOT like a hybrid of a wizard and a chanter - a little ability useat combat start, then spend a lot of time making normal attacks, then use another power, then back to normal attacks. I feel ciphers are too "middle of the road" - I prefer either the slow but powerful "unlimited" invocations or the proper combat-opening massive spelldump capability of a proper spellcaster. Or, in other words, 1 wizard + 1 chanter > 2 ciphers.

[AgentTBC]

I agree that having the first-level phrases shorter than the later ones is wrong.  It makes it a bad idea to use anything but the first level stuff.

[Grand_Commander13]

The smart thing to do would have been to make the first-level phrases 8 seconds, and the final tier 4 seconds.

 

Then you just end up with the exact opposite problem: there's zero reason to use the lower-level phrases, ever. Unless you make them stronger (so their passive effects are much stronger in the early game) and the higher-level phrases much weaker. But then you'd end up with the same circumstance you have now, though at least the chanter's early game will have been nerfed I suppose.

[Schakar]

 

 

 

- 6 Chanters can faceroll hard mode with expert and ToI. After every chant sequence your party multiplies. You start with skeletons, then phantoms (which hit like a truck and are hard to hit), and eventually drakes. So basically you have a multiplying Borg army

 

 

I disagree with this. I play on hard and my enemies usually die before my Chanter can get off a 3-Phrase chant, much less a 5-Phrase drake.

 

It might seem OP, but if you run a party with a Druid/Chanter/Wiz combo who just blows up the entire screen before your chanter can even get 2 phrases....well...lol.

 

 

So what are you disagreeing with.... You can kill faster than 6 Chanters would? That's fine, but it's still OP as hell.

 

I love people who seldom think before they post.

 

If something is slower, it is normaly seen as underpowert .

You know?

underpowert = slower

balanced = same time

overpowert = faster

 

You might think before you post *g*.

Why should I wast my time to build up 3 to 5 chants when I can simply nuke the sh.. out of them within seconds?

[SeekDWay]

I disagree about chanters, most of the time you'll only get 1-2 invocations for the duration of a single encounter. The ranged weapons chant sure was op, but that's nerfed now. Just like any other class they can be op in certain situations.

 

Now if we are talking about more chanters in the party, heh it actually isn't the most powerful x6 combo.

 

I find Ciphers much stronger, but I didn't like them from the start so it might be personal bias.

 

At anyrate please avoid the nerf spiral that will turn this game into boring crap. These classes are nowhere near Slicken-fog crap tier.

Edited April 5, 2015 by SeekDWay

[Luj1]

 

If something is slower, it is normaly seen as underpowert .

 

 

Not necessarily. Also, its underpowered.

[scrotiemcb]

 

The smart thing to do would have been to make the first-level phrases 8 seconds, and the final tier 4 seconds.

 

 

Then you just end up with the exact opposite problem: there's zero reason to use the lower-level phrases, ever. Unless you make them stronger (so their passive effects are much stronger in the early game) and the higher-level phrases much weaker. But then you'd end up with the same circumstance you have now, though at least the chanter's early game will have been nerfed I suppose.

That would indeed be the design trap, but I didn't mean that Blessed Was Wengridh, Quickest of His Tribe would become an 8-second phrase. I meant that stuff like The Silver Knights' Shields Broke Both Arrow and Blade would become a first-level, 8-second phrase.

 

The result would still be that, pre-summon, chanters would use their shortest phrases. However, post-summon they'd generally switch to the older phrases to better support their minions (only one summon allowed per chanter at a time), at least once they've reached whatever invocation tier they're ultimately assuming for. Thus, although the lowest-level phrases would be used last, they'd still see some use.

 

What would change, for the better, is that a first-level invocation would go from something with a static charge tone, to something which becomes easier to get out as the chanter levels up. In other words, phrases might not feel a usual leveling progression (just use shortest, mostly), but invocations would.

 

Also, I think chanters would be more interesting if they levelled like this:

1: Access to level 1 phrases (10 seconds), access to level 1 invocations (require 2 phrases), choose 2 phrases, choose 1 invocation

Every level past 1: choose 1 phrase and 1 invocation

3: Access to level 2 phrases (7 seconds) and invocations (require 3 phrases)

5: Access to level 3 phrases (5 seconds) and invocations (require 4 phrases)

7: Access to level 4 phrases (4 seconds) and invocations (require 5 phrases)

9: Access to level 5 phrases (3 seconds) and invocations (require 7 phrases)

11: Access to level 6 phrases (2 seconds) and invocations (require 10 phrases)

 

...but that would probably be wishing too much.

[Odd Hermit]

The chanter class design is facepalm-worthy. The best phrases, in actuality, are the first you learn; they add a stack in 4 seconds, not 8. So since the summons of the class are the payoff, that's what you end up using. All game long.

 

The smart thing to do would have been to make the first-level phrases 8 seconds, and the final tier 4 seconds. And have all Invocations require one less phrase. And utterly forbid repeating the same phrase twice in a row. So you'd start with, say, one phantom after 16 seconds of combat, and over time what you'd need to summon that phantom would drop from 16 seconds to 14, then 12, then 10, and finally 8. Or you could save up for new, more powerful invocations you've learned since.

 

Chanters are very powerful if you stick to the short phrases. If you're using anything 6 seconds or longer, that's why you think they aren't a bit overpowered. (They undoubtedly are in the early parts of the game.)

 

To be honest, I don't think ciphers are that amazing. To me they feel a LOT like a hybrid of a wizard and a chanter - a little ability useat combat start, then spend a lot of time making normal attacks, then use another power, then back to normal attacks. I feel ciphers are too "middle of the road" - I prefer either the slow but powerful "unlimited" invocations or the proper combat-opening massive spelldump capability of a proper spellcaster. Or, in other words, 1 wizard + 1 chanter > 2 ciphers.

 

This what I've concluded with my Chanter experiences as well. I think Wendgridh(+reflex +move speed) is their best Chant still, you can kite with a whole party using it while building up phrases. Obviously, doesn't work if you don't have space to work with but then you can use Soft Winds of Death for drawn out slogs in chokepoints and so on.

 

Haven't found much use for second and third tier phrases. There are some I might use only if they were as fast as first tier.

 

Also, having no linger bonus from int really makes it feel pointless to use a chant sequence. They don't fully overlap so I rather keep the chant I want to stay up going than cycle through chants.

 

So my chanter pretty much uses a single tier 1 phrase and then summons stuff or occasionally uses a CC of some sort.

 

___

 

Cipher OTOH I disagree with you a bit with. They are very useful debuff/control. Certainly, if you can only have a Wizard OR a Cipher, I pick the Wizard every time because they're simply more powerful for the hard fights. But, having both adds options and synergy to a party, while making smaller/easier encounters much smoother and faster assuming you're not just spell dumping on every fight with your spell/rest casters and then resting a ton.

 

They're also ideal openers with Tenuous Grasp. Wood Elf + Paladin Aura active, and I've got +11 accuracy to it and can confuse most things. Confusion is kind of overpowered and buggy though, since they're treated as friendlies. But for the time being you can confuse a single enemy in a group, the group mobs that enemy, and then you can drop AoEs on the blob.

[scrotiemcb]

@OddHermit: to be completely honest, my current party is 5 very tanky chanters (all hired) and a priest (myself). I considered adding additional caster options, particularly a 4 chant priest wizard party. However, at the end of the day a second caster would need to add an impressive amount of survivability, and the priest can already do everything (although not everything well): daze, prone, blind, and of course buff.

 

The one thing he can't do is charm. So maybe you're right, since that's one thing a Cipher can do well, while a Wizard can't AFAIK. Mental Binding and Eyestrike would also be nice.

 

I guess I've overlooked it as an option by mistake.

 

Still, perhaps for the best. You need a lot of stopping power to justify cutting a chanter in a summoner party.

[James Harrison]

 the searing falls "monster"...

 

In your opening post you mentioned by name something at searing falls - just saying this has really annoyed me and spoiler some of the game for me... I ddin't notice much till I've got a related quest, but now all the subtle hints are really obvious. Just saying I'm anoyed - keep spoiler materiel to another forum - I'm careful about what i read and I didn't want to read this at all!

 

Not Happy (

[rheingold]

You honestly can't expect the devs to balance a party of 6 chanters or 6 ciphers or 6 whatever. If you want to play that way fine, but seriously that's not a balance issue... There are always going to be exploits and lots of cheese and whine with them. It's as stupid as taking 6 druids. Nothing they can do about that without impacting balance somewhere else. They do have a bit of work with balancing overall, but its not as bad as people say. For instance Chanters and Ciphers are the exact opposite, Ciphers are not that strong for the big boss fights but they rock for the majority of the game. Chanters are good for the majority of the game but they are awesome in the boss fights. Druids and Wizards are still better than a Cipher - particularly Druids, in a one off fight - by that I mean a Druid spamming all his spells will completely out do a Cipher. But he can only do it once. So the balance needs work but it's not as bad as everyone thinks.

Edited April 8, 2015 by rheingold

[gkathellar]

I'd rather see everything else brought up to par (including enemies - I want to love to hate them, ala shades) than continued nerfs to the stronger classes.

 

where my anime magick sword mans

[Caerdon]

I'd rather see everything else brought up to par (including enemies - I want to love to hate them, ala shades) than continued nerfs to the stronger classes.

 

where my anime magick sword mans

 

I'm trying, I really am, but I just can't understand why balancing should ever be done like that. Why do things the hard way? Why not adjust the tiny subset that deviates from the mean instead of adjusting literally everything else to match the subset? The end result is the same: balance - so why multiply the amount of work?

[philby]

what is CC?

i'm playing as a cipher and i don't think i'm overpowering anyone by any stretch of the imagination. that is more likely me not getting how everything works though or not making the most of things....

in particular i really struggled with end fight at raedric's hold and trying to get through the first 5 levels of the endless dungeon.

[anameforobsidian]

CC stands for crowd control.  The cipher has the most powerful crowd control.  Weirdly enough, it seems like the two have separate power curves.  Ciphers seem to go from great damage mid game to great crowd control late game.  Wizards have pretty awesome crowd control in the early game, and seem more damage oriented in the late game.

[kalniel]

But are they fun to play?

 

That's the question really - since PoE isn't a competitive multiplayer game, the only issue is whether they are unfun if played in the way they are expected to be. You can always find ways to game the system, and some choices will always be easier than others, which is one of the reasons you can change the difficulty level yourself so you can set it to what's fun for you.

 

Personally, I have one cipher and one chanter in my party, and the game is really fun. Different party members have different strengths and weaknesses and that adds to my enjoyment. If every classes was absolutely equally matched it would possibly even lose something for me.

One of the main reasons I like PoE is that it treats its players with maturity and gives us the keys to play how we like in many circumstances - sometimes that results in us having to take responsibility for not making the game unfun for ourselves.

[gkathellar]

 

I'd rather see everything else brought up to par (including enemies - I want to love to hate them, ala shades) than continued nerfs to the stronger classes.

 

where my anime magick sword mans

 

I'm trying, I really am, but I just can't understand why balancing should ever be done like that. Why do things the hard way? Why not adjust the tiny subset that deviates from the mean instead of adjusting literally everything else to match the subset? The end result is the same: balance - so why multiply the amount of work?

 

 

It's less that I think that's the ideal way of balancing, and more that I think most of the classes (and enemies) are kinda boring. Ciphers are strong, but what's more important is that they're interesting (Chanters are as well, but not really in a way that works, IMO). I'd like to enjoy playing the other classes as much as I enjoy playing a Cipher.

 

Also, the original class pitches kinda made it sound like I was gonna get me some anime magic sword mans, and that didn't happen. Flames of Devotion is a good start, for instance, but I want paladins whose entire bodies ignite with sheer hot-blooded conviction, barbarians that howl out a cone of stone-shattering sonic disruption, and rangers that transform their animal companions into arrow to shoot at enemies. So where's my bear arrow? What's wrong with you, Josh Sawyer? HUH? WHATSWRONGWITHYOU?!??!!!?

Edited April 8, 2015 by gkathellar

[Darth Trethon]

I don't think the Cypher are powerful enough......not by a long shot. They should be able to kill anything with a single thought, any enemy capable of the smallest amount of intelligence should either run or surrender instantly upon realizing they are at odds with a Cypher. Cyphers should only need to worry about stronger Cyphers. WIzards should only have to worry about Cyphers and stronger Wizards. Everything else is whatever. The cyphers shouldn't so much be a class or even a difficulty level.....they should be pure story mode because by all rights with their abilities they should be all-powerful.

[Caerdon]

 

 

I'd rather see everything else brought up to par (including enemies - I want to love to hate them, ala shades) than continued nerfs to the stronger classes.

 

where my anime magick sword mans

 

I'm trying, I really am, but I just can't understand why balancing should ever be done like that. Why do things the hard way? Why not adjust the tiny subset that deviates from the mean instead of adjusting literally everything else to match the subset? The end result is the same: balance - so why multiply the amount of work?

 

 

It's less that I think that's the ideal way of balancing, and more that I think most of the classes (and enemies) are kinda boring. Ciphers are strong, but what's more important is that they're interesting (Chanters are as well, but not really in a way that works, IMO). I'd like to enjoy playing the other classes as much as I enjoy playing a Cipher.

 

Also, the original class pitches kinda made it sound like I was gonna get me some anime magic sword mans, and that didn't happen. Flames of Devotion is a good start, for instance, but I want paladins whose entire bodies ignite with sheer hot-blooded conviction, barbarians that howl out a cone of stone-shattering sonic disruption, and rangers that transform their animal companions into arrow to shoot at enemies. So where's my bear arrow? What's wrong with you, Josh Sawyer? HUH? WHATSWRONGWITHYOU?!??!!!?

 

Huh, I guess it's just a mattter of differing personalities. To me, OP classes are the epitome of boring.

 

And no, that's not the impression I got from the pitches - and I'm very, very happy we don't have much of that stuff. To me a more realistic style is infinitely more interesting - not that there shouldn't be magic, but magic should be something exceptional, otherwise it gets devalued.

 

Also, I've no idea what "mans" means.

[gkathellar]

Huh, I guess it's just a mattter of differing personalities. To me, OP classes are the epitome of boring.

 

 

I don't want all the classes to be overpowered, so much as I want combat in general to be wilder and less predictable. As I said, I also want the enemies turned up, not necessarily in terms of stats, but in terms of crazy abilities - shades are a good example of what I like, with their teleports and debuffs and ice beams and whatnot.

 

And no, that's not the impression I got from the pitches - and I'm very, very happy we don't have much of that stuff. To me a more realistic style is infinitely more interesting - not that there shouldn't be magic, but magic should be something exceptional, otherwise it gets devalued.

 

That doesn't mean it should be something that only half of the classes are capable of, especially when the pitches said that pretty much everyone was going to be hurling around a certain amount of spiritual power. I don't actually demand the kind of gonzo weirdness that I mentioned before, but it's disappointing to me that some of the classes are so totally mundane and lack any spiritual options.

 

Also, I've no idea what "mans" means.

 

Yes you do. Give in to the dark side, it is your destiny.

 

I don't think the Cypher are powerful enough......not by a long shot. They should be able to kill anything with a single thought, any enemy capable of the smallest amount of intelligence should either run or surrender instantly upon realizing they are at odds with a Cypher. Cyphers should only need to worry about stronger Cyphers. WIzards should only have to worry about Cyphers and stronger Wizards. Everything else is whatever. The cyphers shouldn't so much be a class or even a difficulty level.....they should be pure story mode because by all rights with their abilities they should be all-powerful.

 

why hello there

Edited April 8, 2015 by gkathellar

[kingthrall]

Mind Blades is definently an amazing spell, and Ive been using no guides or anything. That said people crying about overpowering characters need to realize that you need a taskforce of different classes (unless you are cheesing in which case you already broke the immersion). 

 

Honestly there are far bigger issues than this, for one I would rather devs fix the sound of quickitems to not be a bottle opening all the time when you use a scroll or a trap. OR what about writing in the journal what type of creature it is like (kith/spirit) ect so when you pick your trait such as spirit slayer you know what kind of enemies you should be attacking.

Theres a few more I could say but Chanters and Cyphers are stronger yes, but in no way rediculous game breaking with one in your party.

[Shinae]

Blunderbuss Cipher is a power house. One shot and you can cast a lot of new stuff. It's actually more balanced with other weapons. Focus gain with Blunderbuss is just insane.

 

I like the abilities tho. Both damage and CC. It's fun to play. I like Mind Blades vs small stuff as it clears it quite fast. CC on the other hand is valuable to keep lots of enemies in one place, so your wizard AoE gets the max value. Cipher works the best as support and CC character.