Twitter outrage over the "[spoiler]" quest

[Hatred]

This is what you get when you cave to the first person to loudly disagree with you: You open the floodgates for every moron with an opinion.

How is there an open floodgate ? You do realise Obsidian aren't able to stop people tweeting whatever they like right ?

[Namutree]

 

 

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

Funny thing is, the fighting game community is MUCH more diverse than average.

In terms of diversity, fighting game tournaments blow sites like Kotaku out of the water. Which is hilarious, given how much whining Kotaku does about diversity in the FGC.

Well the fighting game community is largely black guys playing games made in Japan. You should all know that Japan doesn't give a **** and that black guys for the most part don't care as long as you're good.

 

*shrug*

 

At least that's the case here in the North Eastern US.

[dirigible]

Could someone please explain to me EXACTLY what happened with the Transphobia quest issue? ME NO GET IT! PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE

It wasn't a quest.

 

People who donated lots of money through kickstarter got to write their own personal message in the game. You can see them by clicking tombstones.

One such backer wrote a short limerick about a lady's man who kills himself after finding out he slept with a dude. It was a short, comedic thing.

 

Someone on twitter (who incidentally believes that all men deserve to die - seriously) took it as an insult against transsexuals. He/she/it complained to Sawyer, and Sawyer said he'd look into it.

 

It got changed in patch 1.03

[PrimeJunta]

Western Europe is somewhat more progressive than some parts of the US for sure, but egads the battle isn't won here either. Finland's among the top of the pack when it comes to gender equality -- I think it was recently rated by someone as the best country to work in if you're a woman --, and even here most corporate CEO's are men and a woman earns 80 cents to a man's euro on average.

 

In the tech field at least though there's way less sexism here I think. I work in my company's dev team, which is very nearly 50-50 male/female, and we have not done any "diversity hiring," rather than simply picking the best candidate for the job every time. It's also changing quite quickly: we're seeing a lot more qualified women applying for positions now than ten years ago.

[Luj1]

 

This is what you get when you cave to the first person to loudly disagree with you: You open the floodgates for every moron with an opinion.

How is there an open floodgate ? You do realise Obsidian aren't able to stop people tweeting whatever they like right ?

 

 

 

No Obsidian cant stop people from using twitter

 

but having complied with demands of one twitter person, now more and more are whining and demanding their share be fulfilled

 

Its called opening a Pandora's box and I bet Obsidian regrets it now ( or will regret it very soon)

[Lerina]

Could someone please explain to me EXACTLY what happened with the Transphobia quest issue? ME NO GET IT! PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE

 

There was a backer epitaph with a limerick on it about a man who killed himself after learning that he'd slept with another man. No mention of transphobia, or if the bedded man was a cross-dresser, a streetwalker, or even a guy hired to get revenge on "Firedorn" (the one who committed suicide), due to Firedorn's habit of sleeping with many women. Moral crusaders took it at the worst possible face value, and pressured Oblivion to change it.

 

Here's where it gets muddy: The backer, Firedorn himself, said that Oblivion came to him admitting that they'd missed properly vetting his limerick, and asked if he would work with them to create a new one. He did, and personally, I think it's funnier than the original, because it makes light of the "outrage culture" that caused the original to be removed. (Quote from TotalBiscuit's Twitter.)

 

However, both moral crusaders and gamers still have issues with it A: Being in at all or B: Being changed even with the backer's assistance. Moral crusaders think Obsidian is scum, and some gamers think Obsidian caved.

 

Hopefully, that clears up the known facts about the "issue" for you. I'm not getting into the emotional, because that would just exhaust me, and I have French bread pizza to make.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

...I don't see the problem. There was a quest to kill a child in Dragon Age, too. Not to mention Fallout. It's kind of an industry standard at this point, really.

[PrimeJunta]

@Luj1, you do realize the tweet in question was almost certainly a fake? YHBT

[Osvir]

Why is this the only forums about Pillars of Eternity out of the 5-6 others that seem to have lost all sense? Why does this forum breathe and feed this crap?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Osvir

[Stun]

There was once a loon that twitter

Who was thrown down the sh1ter

In its demise it wasn't missed

Because there were bugs to be fixed

 

 

I'll get my coat.

lol

 

Tweeters who whine are here to stay

And they'll always get things their way

"I'm from the BSN!"

"And I hate all men!"

Cater your game to Me, Okay?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Stun

[Moonlight Butterfly]

 

Soooo...

Why are you acting like the boobplate question was due an outside force trying to inflict views on the game when clearly it wasn't

Sure it was. Not sure how you can call it anything else. They released concept art. People then whined about it. So they changed it.

 

This was one of the first issues discussed in these forums. If backers can't ask for changes and question decisions who can? Just you?

Oh, no. Not me. I did not engage in the boob plate controversy of 2012 at all. I merely sat back and observed the Biowaresque insanity as it was unfolding around me. And wondering why it matters, to anyone, whether or not their 2-inch-tall companions' would maintain their shapely figures while wearing armor. I brought up the Boob plate thing here on this thread because it is a perfect example of someone getting offended by an artistic developer design....and then the developers immediately changing this design because it offended someone.

 

And this isn't game play mechanics so stop comparing the two. There's a *Huge* difference between someone voicing their dislike of, say, the melee Engagement system, and someone complaining about how a quest is written. Or what a woman looks like in the game.

 

 

It was discussed in the forums quite rationally as I remember, we even discussed about how badass looking and largely gender neutral Dark Souls armour was with Josh. 

Seems like you and I remember it quite differently.

If you got hit while wearing boobplate it would  work against you because it would fracture your sternum and direct weapons towards vital organs.

I didn't want to see it in the game because it's literally telling me that character is inept. I don't see how discussing character appearance and how it reflects that characters personality is any different than any other aspect. 

[rkade8583]

@Luj1, you do realize the tweet in question was almost certainly a fake? YHBT

Whether fake or not, it sure managed to stir this place up... and I'm no better. I woke up, saw it, and got pissed too. How can you tell it's fake?

[PureSophistry]

 

Could someone please explain to me EXACTLY what happened with the Transphobia quest issue? ME NO GET IT! PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE

It wasn't a quest.

 

People who donated lots of money through kickstarter got to write their own personal message in the game. You can see them by clicking tombstones.

One such backer wrote a short limerick about a lady's man who kills himself after finding out he slept with a dude. It was a short, comedic thing.

 

Someone on twitter (who incidentally believes that all men deserve to die - seriously) took it as an insult against transsexuals. He/she/it complained to Sawyer, and Sawyer said he'd look into it.

 

It got changed in patch 1.03

 

 

And why are backers upset by the notion of game dev's removing offensive content they missed?

 

This wasn't content they created or endorsed correct?

[Hatred]

 

 

This is what you get when you cave to the first person to loudly disagree with you: You open the floodgates for every moron with an opinion.

How is there an open floodgate ? You do realise Obsidian aren't able to stop people tweeting whatever they like right ?

 

 

 

No Obsidian cant stop people from using twitter

 

but having complied with demands of one twitter person, now more and more are whining and demanding their share be fulfilled

 

Its called opening a Pandora's box and I bet Obsidian regrets it now ( or will regret it very soon)

 

 So you think that the original tweet was spurred on by the removal of a  limeric ?  Really ? Like  really? 

 

I have no words for just how stupid this sounds. Also do some research. The limeric issue wasn't about people complying with demands. If you read this thread and paid any attention to the issue you would know otherwise. I'd also really like to know just how you think Obsidian is being negatively effected by this tweet. Seriously. I am betting my mouse hand that they will survive this tweet. They could probably survive DOZENS of tweets.

[dirigible]

Western Europe is somewhat more progressive than some parts of the US for sure, but egads the battle isn't won here either. Finland's among the top of the pack when it comes to gender equality -- I think it was recently rated by someone as the best country to work in if you're a woman --, and even here most corporate CEO's are men and a woman earns 80 cents to a man's euro on average.

 

In the tech field at least though there's way less sexism here I think. I work in my company's dev team, which is very nearly 50-50 male/female, and we have not done any "diversity hiring," rather than simply picking the best candidate for the job every time. It's also changing quite quickly: we're seeing a lot more qualified women applying for positions now than ten years ago.

You should read some critical studies of the "wage gap".

[Creslin321]

Western Europe is somewhat more progressive than some parts of the US for sure, but egads the battle isn't won here either. Finland's among the top of the pack when it comes to gender equality -- I think it was recently rated by someone as the best country to work in if you're a woman --, and even here most corporate CEO's are men and a woman earns 80 cents to a man's euro on average.

 

In the tech field at least though there's way less sexism here I think. I work in my company's dev team, which is very nearly 50-50 male/female, and we have not done any "diversity hiring," rather than simply picking the best candidate for the job every time. It's also changing quite quickly: we're seeing a lot more qualified women applying for positions now than ten years ago.

 

This wage gap thing is always something that people bring up, but I really think it's a misleading statistic.  This article explains why far better than I can.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html

 

The way I see it, men and women are just different.  They have different challenges, and even different inclinations.  These differences manifest in certain ways, one of which I feel leads to the wage gap.

[PrimeJunta]

You should read some critical studies of the "wage gap".

 

I have. Their explanations aren't that strong IMO. A relatively small part of the gap can be explained by things like childbirth. The major cause though is that professions where women are in the majority are lower-paid than professions requiring a similar level of skill and/or study where men are in the majority. Construction workers are paid more than nurses, for example, and nursing is every bit as demanding as construction work.

[dirigible]

And why are backers upset by the notion of game dev's removing offensive content they missed?

This wasn't content they created or endorsed correct?

Because

1. they approved the message initially*, and then removed it later when someone complained

2. the person who complained is freaking insane, and their reasoning is stupid

3. the backer PAID to have their message in the game

 

*Actually Obsidian claims that this particular message 'slipped through' their vetting process. With due respect, that sounds like horse****. It's not even the most out of place, offensive, or disturbing thing in the game, by a wide margin.

[Arsene Lupin]

I find it funny that anyone would be "offended" by this quest, considering "killing children" is a HUGE part of the story of this game. I mean, how do you miss learning about the Hollowborn? The Wichts? All the talk about abortion?

[Creslin321]

 

You should read some critical studies of the "wage gap".

 

I have. Their explanations aren't that strong IMO. A relatively small part of the gap can be explained by things like childbirth. The major cause though is that professions where women are in the majority are lower-paid than professions requiring a similar level of skill and/or study where men are in the majority. Construction workers are paid more than nurses, for example, and nursing is every bit as demanding as construction work.

 

 

Erm, according to Google construction worker average salary is ~$35K, and a nurse's average salary is ~$66K.

 

Regardless though, I get your poin, I mean just look at teachers!  I won't argue with you that some professions are underpaid.  But hey, that's capitalism.  I don't think it's any kind of conscious gender bias.

 

Salaries are controlled by supply and demand, and they definitely aren't "fair" by any stretch of the imagination.  I mean, you can get a 4 year BS in IT, and make WAY more than someone with a doctorate in Chemistry.

[PureSophistry]

 

And why are backers upset by the notion of game dev's removing offensive content they missed?

This wasn't content they created or endorsed correct?

Because

1. they approved the message initially*, and then removed it later when someone complained

2. the person who complained is freaking insane, and their reasoning is stupid

3. the backer PAID to have their message in the game

 

*Actually Obsidian claims that this particular message 'slipped through' their vetting process. With due respect, that sounds like horse****. It's not even the most out of place, offensive, or disturbing thing in the game, by a wide margin.

 

 

So they didn't approve the message....

 

Their reasoning doesn't seem insane, maybe far too overtly sensitive to reasonable but not insane.

 

If a backer wanted a limerick to say- "**** the Blacks I hate their backs?" Would that be permissable?

I've talked to Josh a lot in interviews and he is the MOST singular censorship despising dev I've ever talked to.

 

Is it not possible that this line was, as he said, something that fell through the cracks that wouldn't have been acceptible?

 

[dirigible]

 

You should read some critical studies of the "wage gap".

 

I have. Their explanations aren't that strong IMO. A relatively small part of the gap can be explained by things like childbirth. The major cause though is that professions where women are in the majority are lower-paid than professions requiring a similar level of skill and/or study where men are in the majority. Construction workers are paid more than nurses, for example, and nursing is every bit as demanding as construction work.

 

Probably because construction is a dangerous job and is less glamorous than working in the medical field.

 

Women are less likely to sacrifice their personal happiness/comfort/safety for money than men are (I'm not just pulling this out of my ass, studies have concluded this - no I don't have source on hand). Hence, men are more likely to work dangerous/unpleasant/taxing positions, like construction or trucker or miner. These positions actually pay fairly well BECAUSE they're so dangerous/unpleasant/taxing.

[kirottu]

The ride never ends, Obsidian.

[dirigible]

Is it not possible that this line was, as he said, something that fell through the cracks that wouldn't have been acceptible?

No. As I said, I don't really buy that at all.

Again, it is FAR from the most potentially offensive thing in the game. You would have to be unusually sensitive and prone to being offended to find it objectionable in the first place. Unfortunately, twitter is full of such people.

If this one limerick "fell through the cracks" then so did a good 60% of the writing in the game.

[rkade8583]

The ride never ends, Obsidian.

That's them complaining. Let 'em. Free speech. Demanding things is when my jimmies get rustled. Disagreements happen... a lot.