Twitter outrage over the "[spoiler]" quest

[Stun]

So you are one of those people who don't think boobplate is stupid. Even if you don't think its stupid is it really hard for you to realise that everyone else does ? A woman in plate armour looks a lot like a man in plate armour.

This is not about whether I think Boob plate is stupid or excellent. This is about developers having a vision, and then having to edit/change/ax that vision simply because someone in the social media made noise about it.

 

The boob plate thing (and even the backer tombstone) are relatively minor issues, but this doesn't change the *thing* here. There is an end game.... A place that cutting out content whenever someone complains about it can reach. And that Place is: Bland Uniformity. That state of the industry when we can no longer readily find a game world that does anything different from any other game world. Where we can't look and say: "hey! that's unique!" Currently, we can blame the gigantic publishers and their PR fears for this. But if Obsidian decides to go down that same road....

[Hassat Hunter]

This bull**** is getting out of control.

 

Please add a tombstone to the game saying '**** Twitter' plz...

[cirdanx]

Seriously, is anyone surprised?

 

These idiots feel like they have "won" some kind of battle because of the backer limmerick, despite the reasonable comment from the one who made it. (also amusing new one that made fun of the nutcase who started it). But they can´t grasp reality, so now they are asking for more. Pretty much what i wrote in the first place, the moment you change something and they think they can dictate your content they will try to mess with more.

 

Let´s just ignore them, they are meaningless people anyway and there is no point in discussing with people who obviously lack intelligence.

[rkade8583]

My wife's got a post coming up that says that exact thing, Cirdanx. This pissed her off enough to make an account.

[Creslin321]

@Emerwyn This is much too crazy a place for a dissertation on the topic, but unfortunately that's what's needed. Because... well, you're wrong. The gender imbalance exists everywhere, it's much worse in science/engineering/technology than most other fields, and it's especially bad in gaming. And it is not due to differences in ability. For example, one simple experiment has been repeated many times over and always yields the same results: you send CV's with randomized male and female names (or "black" and "white" names) to a bunch of potential employers, and then you tally up who gets invited to interviews. Guess what? The white males win, every time. Even when whoever is vetting the CV's is herself a woman, and/or nonwhite.

 

Two things though: I should have given more thought to my quick thought-experiment. You really ought to look at more than just the gender of the protagonist. Who are the NPC's? Who are the main supporting characters? What's their role? Etc. etc. And: you took games only from the last year, which in fact reflects much of the change I'm referencing. If you took a ten-year perspective, the picture would be very different already with the limited "protagonist test" I proposed. What's more, I was asking you to look at the default -- many of the games indeed allow you to select the race and gender, but what's the default option? Defaults say a lot about the unconscious biases at work here.

 

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

 

I also really think that you're moving the goalposts here onto something that is going to require way to much research to respond to intelligently.  I mean, I don't think any of us have the time to analyze the NPCs in every game we've played.  But I mean, does this really matter?  If the game lets you play a strong female character, is it really that bad if some female NPCs are submissive?  

 

I'm sure that you could find some submissive female NPCs in RPG games, I mean they are huge.  But just having a submissive NPC isn't an issue.  It's only an issue if the entire game is essentially some kind of misogynistic allegory.  For example, how Ayn Rand portrayed liberals, or how Elysium portrayed the wealthy.  And normally, it's fairly obvious when a piece of media does this.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

 

So you are one of those people who don't think boobplate is stupid. Even if you don't think its stupid is it really hard for you to realise that everyone else does ? A woman in plate armour looks a lot like a man in plate armour.

This is not about whether I think Boob plate is stupid or excellent. This is about developers having a vision, and then having to edit/change/ax that vision simply because someone in the social media made noise about it.

 

The boob plate thing (and even the backer tombstone) are relatively minor issues, but this doesn't change the *thing* here. There is an end game.... A place that cutting out content whenever someone complains about it can reach. And that Place is: Bland Uniformity. That state of the industry when we can no longer readily find a game world that does anything different from any other game world. Where we can't look and say: "hey! that's unique!" Currently, we can blame the gigantic publishers and their PR fears for this. But if Obsidian decides to go down that same road....

 

 

As a backer I don't like boobplate I think it's stupid, I wasn't the only one back in 2012. 

Soooo...

Why are you acting like the boobplate question was due an outside force trying to inflict views on the game when clearly it wasn't

This was one of the first issues discussed in these forums. If backers can't ask for changes and question decisions who can? Just you?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Moonlight Butterfly

[Sleazebag]

Looking at this thread it becomes painfully obvious how easy it is to play puppet master on the internet these days, considering on how many people seem to be parroting the same buzz words and phrases they read from whatever gamergate source they use. It's rather obvious to an outsider from the "movement" to see how many people inside it are either trolls that love to see people outraged over something that doesn't exist, such as the fake tweet in the op, or astroturfers who are using the "movement" for who knows what gain. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

This bull**** is getting out of control.

 

Please add a tombstone to the game saying '**** Twitter' plz...

There was once a loon that twitter

Who was thrown down the sh1ter

In its demise it wasn't missed

Because there were bugs to be fixed

 

I'll get my coat.

[dirigible]

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

 

Funny thing is, the fighting game community is MUCH more diverse than average.

In terms of diversity, fighting game tournaments blow sites like Kotaku out of the water. Which is hilarious, given how much whining Kotaku does about diversity in the FGC.

[rkade8583]

 

 

So you are one of those people who don't think boobplate is stupid. Even if you don't think its stupid is it really hard for you to realise that everyone else does ? A woman in plate armour looks a lot like a man in plate armour.

This is not about whether I think Boob plate is stupid or excellent. This is about developers having a vision, and then having to edit/change/ax that vision simply because someone in the social media made noise about it.

 

The boob plate thing (and even the backer tombstone) are relatively minor issues, but this doesn't change the *thing* here. There is an end game.... A place that cutting out content whenever someone complains about it can reach. And that Place is: Bland Uniformity. That state of the industry when we can no longer readily find a game world that does anything different from any other game world. Where we can't look and say: "hey! that's unique!" Currently, we can blame the gigantic publishers and their PR fears for this. But if Obsidian decides to go down that same road....

 

 

As a backer I don't like boobplate I think it's stupid, I wasn't the only one back in 2012. 

Soooo...

Why are you acting like the boobplate question was due an outside force trying to inflict views on the game when clearly it wasn't

This was one of the first issues discussed in these forums. If backers can't ask for changes and question decisions who can? Just you?

 

The rub, for me at least, is these people don't ask: they demand and demand and demand and demand until they get their way. They're whiny children. Asking is fine. Even begging is fine if you're really passionate about something. Outright demanding it like a small child is not ok in my book.

 

I don't care if they were demanding something I agreed with. Say they were demanding that physically disabled people be allowed to do desk jobs for the military (something I've held should be allowed since I was 12 and first had the idea,) I wouldn't be with them because of the methods used to achieve the goal. I'm sorry but methods matter to me. I'd have posted a more topical example but, tactless as I am, even I know that topical examples can lead to massive off-topic ****storms.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

 

Funny thing is, the fighting game community is MUCH more diverse than average.

In terms of diversity, fighting game tournaments blow sites like Kotaku out of the water. Which is hilarious, given how much whining Kotaku does about diversity in the FGC.

Well the fighting game community is largely black guys playing games made in Japan. You should all know that Japan doesn't give a **** and that black guys for the most part don't care as long as you're good.

 

*shrug*

[PrimeJunta]

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

 

I also really think that you're moving the goalposts here onto something that is going to require way to much research to respond to intelligently.  I mean, I don't think any of us have the time to analyze the NPCs in every game we've played.  But I mean, does this really matter?  If the game lets you play a strong female character, is it really that bad if some female NPCs are submissive?

 

Yes, I am, and it was a mistake to propose the thought experiment to start with. This is a complex issue and can't really be illustrated with anecdotal evidence. It needs systemic analysis, and such an analysis would be a pretty big undertaking. And I'm actually a little bummed that Sarkeesian chose not to do that systemic analysis with the resources made available to her, but instead did a quite a lot of cherry-picking when making her case. Her argument would have been much stronger if she had done otherwise.

 

Does it matter if some female NPC's are submissive? Of course not. It does, however, matter if female NPC's are usually or by default cast into a few predefined roles: waifus, woman-in-the-fridge vengeance plot drivers, background decoration, or objects to be rescued. Which is, unfortunately, where most of 'em have ended up, until the past couple of years at least.

 

I could easily list a bunch of standout women characters in games too, but they stand out precisely because they're the exceptions.

 

Perhaps a better thought experiment would have been, of the games you've played which feature men and women as characters, how often are the men portrayed as someone you'd want to be? How often are the women portrayed as something you'd want to possess? 

[Creslin321]

 

 

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

Funny thing is, the fighting game community is MUCH more diverse than average.

In terms of diversity, fighting game tournaments blow sites like Kotaku out of the water. Which is hilarious, given how much whining Kotaku does about diversity in the FGC.

Well the fighting game community is largely black guys playing games made in Japan. You should all know that Japan doesn't give a **** and that black guys for the most part don't care as long as you're good.

 

*shrug*

 

 

Also, judging from the Japanese games I've played, I really think that Japanese people think that black guys are either Mr. T or disco dancing afro dudes .

[Aargh]

This is what you get when you cave to the first person to loudly disagree with you: You open the floodgates for every moron with an opinion.

[rkade8583]

Looking at this thread it becomes painfully obvious how easy it is to play puppet master on the internet these days, considering on how many people seem to be parroting the same buzz words and phrases they read from whatever gamergate source they use. It's rather obvious to an outsider from the "movement" to see how many people inside it are either trolls that love to see people outraged over something that doesn't exist, such as the fake tweet in the op, or astroturfers who are using the "movement" for who knows what gain. 

Yeah, that's why the wife and I left it. I'll admit, your tone was pissing me off but you're right. An awful lot of them are pains like that. I was never extreme enough for Gamergate. Too moderate. Willing to look at all sides of an argument.

 

It used to be about ethics in journalism though. I swear it did. I was there at the beginning. Now it's devolved into this mirror image of the SJW crowd they rail against. It's really sad, to be honest.

[dirigible]

Also, judging from the Japanese games I've played, I really think that Japanese people think that black guys are either Mr. T or disco dancing afro dudes .

Japanese portrayals of black people are freaking hilarious.

[snow0815]

I dislike all the violence in the game, please change all fights to peaceful, constructive, endless debates instead. And weapons have to go, maybe flower bouquets instead? With butterflies?

Edited April 4, 2015 by snow0815

[RentACop]

Did you all seriously make a 15 page thread in a day over a single tweet? Holy hell 

[Luj1]

 

There was once a loon that twitter

Who was thrown down the sh1ter

In its demise it wasn't missed

Because there were bugs to be fixed

 

 

 

Duuuuude you win the day !!

 

 

can I use this for my sig  please?

[Stun]

Soooo...

Why are you acting like the boobplate question was due an outside force trying to inflict views on the game when clearly it wasn't

Sure it was. Not sure how you can call it anything else. They released concept art. People then whined about it. So they changed it.

 

This was one of the first issues discussed in these forums. If backers can't ask for changes and question decisions who can? Just you?

Oh, no. Not me. I did not engage in the boob plate controversy of 2012 at all. I merely sat back and observed the Biowaresque insanity as it was unfolding around me. And wondering why it matters, to anyone, whether or not their 2-inch-tall companions' would maintain their shapely figures while wearing armor. I brought up the Boob plate thing here on this thread because it is a perfect example of someone getting offended by an artistic developer design....and then the developers immediately changing this design because it offended someone.

 

And this isn't game play mechanics so stop comparing the two. There's a *Huge* difference between someone voicing their dislike of, say, the melee Engagement system, and someone complaining about how a quest is written. Or what a woman looks like in the game.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Stun

[Creslin321]

 

I don't think either of us are arguing that sexism doesn't exist.  I'm just arguing that there is not this huge "diversity problem" in video gaming outside of FPS and action games.

 

I also really think that you're moving the goalposts here onto something that is going to require way to much research to respond to intelligently.  I mean, I don't think any of us have the time to analyze the NPCs in every game we've played.  But I mean, does this really matter?  If the game lets you play a strong female character, is it really that bad if some female NPCs are submissive?

 

Yes, I am, and it was a mistake to propose the thought experiment to start with. This is a complex issue and can't really be illustrated with anecdotal evidence. It needs systemic analysis, and such an analysis would be a pretty big undertaking. And I'm actually a little bummed that Sarkeesian chose not to do that systemic analysis with the resources made available to her, but instead did a quite a lot of cherry-picking when making her case. Her argument would have been much stronger if she had done otherwise.

 

Does it matter if some female NPC's are submissive? Of course not. It does, however, matter if female NPC's are usually or by default cast into a few predefined roles: waifus, woman-in-the-fridge vengeance plot drivers, background decoration, or objects to be rescued. Which is, unfortunately, where most of 'em have ended up, until the past couple of years at least.

 

I could easily list a bunch of standout women characters in games too, but they stand out precisely because they're the exceptions.

 

Perhaps a better thought experiment would have been, of the games you've played which feature men and women as characters, how often are the men portrayed as someone you'd want to be? How often are the women portrayed as something you'd want to possess? 

 

 

I 100% agree with you about Anita, and your view that systemic analysis needs to be done.  And if that analysis were (honestly) done, and it did show that there is a very large systemic bias towards "macho" male characters all across gaming, I would acknowledge it.  Until then though, I am going to have to go off my personal experience, which says that there is no such bias.

 

Moving on, I think that your next thought experiment really depends upon the one answering.  You ever hear the phrase "women want him, men want to be him?"  This refers to a desirable male, and the idea is that women want to possess him, but men want to be him.  The reasoning for this is simple...

 

Straight women, want men, so they simply want to have the man.  Straight men, want women, so they want to be a man who can get women.

 

So if you ask me, a straight man this question, of course I would want to "possess" the female character and want to be the male character.  But a gay man, or a straight woman may respond differently.

 

Also, possess in this context doesn't literally mean "own," it more means more "sexually desire."

Edited April 4, 2015 by Creslin321

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

There was once a loon that twitter

Who was thrown down the sh1ter

In its demise it wasn't missed

Because there were bugs to be fixed

 

 

Duuuuude you win the day !!

 

 

can I use this for my sig  please?

Go ahead.

[PureSophistry]

Could someone please explain to me EXACTLY what happened with the Transphobia quest issue? ME NO GET IT! PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun Speaking as someone who was also here for the boobplate controversy, IMO you're misrepresenting our side of the argument somewhat.

 

While there may have been someone there who was, in fact, offended by the idea of boobplate, most of us -- myself included -- disliked it for other reasons. I certainly don't remember being offended by it. Mildly annoyed, perhaps, mostly because it's so very tired and cliché.

[Emerwyn]

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I honestly agree with you that Gears of War style machismo characters are boring...and this is part of why I don't play those kinds of games.  I just don't see it as some kind of systemic issue in gaming because there are plenty, plenty of games that have always featured diverse characters.

 

Do you see it differently?

 

Somewhat, yes. Definitely some genres are more space-mariney than others, but it is a systemic problem IMO, in that the exceptions tend to stand out. 

 

As a thought experiment, why don't you write down a list of, say, 30 games you've enjoyed over the years, and then underline the ones which had a non-white, non-male default protagonist, regardless of genre or whether they even have a protagonist.

 

 

 

I just did this experiment, only in the last year my ten most enjoyed games were:

 

- Shadowrun Returns (you can create your main character, and choose gender and race. Option for dark skinned included)

- Divinity: Orinignal Sin (you can create two main characters, and choose gender and race. Option for dark skinned included)

- Blackguards 2 (locked female main character)

- Tomb Raider (locked female character)

- Might and Magic X: Legacy (you can create 4 characters, you get to choose races and genders for all. Option for dark skinned included)

- Dark Souls 2 (you create your main character, you get to choose race and gender. Option for dark skinned included)

- The Evil Within (Male white main character. Female sidekick that you get to play as the main character in the sequel/DLC)

- Resident Evil Revelations 2 (two campaigns, 4 main characters, of which one is male and three are female)

- Dragon Age Inquisition (you get to create your main character, and choose gender and race. Option for dark skinned included. Option for romancing dark skinned and male NPCs included. Even when playing as a man.)

- Middle Earth: Shadows of Mordor (Damn it, here it is. The locked white male character that makes the game industry systemic.)

 

Of all those games, none of them has predominant white male symbology. DOS' cover has a male and female characters walking in tandem where none is predominant, MMX shows a party fighting, with two males and two females, and the rest of the games in that list mostly have covers that consist in banners with ornaments that fit the game's theme. 

 

My favourite game/trilogy in the last decade, Mass Effect, allows you to create any race, and any gender main character, and allows any combination of romances with both females, males, dark skinned and homosexuals (and aliens  ). The main cover of the game even has a dual design, one with the male version of Shepard, and another with the female version of Shepard.

 

 

 

You usually make valid posts PrimeJunta, but what you posted this one time around was mere and baseless bulls*it, which is also what some of these feminist SJW believe in their heart, even when it's not true. This is not the 60's, the world has changed quite a bit in the last few decades, and we love it.

 

The problem is that unfortunately, some people prefer to keep playing victim, because it's easier to blame everyone else for me being a failure. Also gives you that powerful feeling of being a warrior, fighting against the system. Truth is you had the same treatment as everyone else, and you did not qualify. Assume it, and improve next time around.

 

 

Speak for yourself.  Sure may not be the 60's but it's the same bull going around here in the U.S. that has been around for years. The GAME has been changed is all.  So while YOU may love it.. Some still don't.  

 

The GAME will always be played by those who win at it. 

 

 

I think then it's more an issue of the American society, which by no means represents the world. I am from Spain, Europe, and 54% of parliament members are female. The "boss" of Europe is called Angela Merkel, a woman.

 

If you Americans have the issue, solve it, but don't shove it on the rest of the world, nor pretend you represent us.