Ok, I will fix your stat system for you

[Lightzy]

 I will fix it for you:

 

1) Might contributes in full to melee attacks, and in half to ranged attacks

2) Perception contributes half to armor negation and fully to ranged attacks

3) Intelligence remains the same, adds a small bonus to chance-to-hit

4) Resolve contributes to damage reduction, and fully to magic attacks and mental resistance

5) Constitution contributes to HP, all kinds of resistances

6) Dex contributes to action speed, evasion (deflection or whatever it's called)

 

 

There you go, fixed.

 

You will now have

1) The right conversation options according to whatever class you chose (instead of all your conversation options = might)

2) Intuitive grasp of the system where physical stats contributes to physicality and "spiritual" stats contributes to spirituality, instead of the unintuitive crap where a wizard must be swhartzenneger (one of the reasons I restarted my game, not realizing how silly it was and how gimped the wizard was because he was merely very intelligent and full of resolve)

3) The ability to customize according to what kind of character you want, with all stats valid, just depending on build:

 

For example:

Want a tanky fighter that holds the line? go more con/res. Remain standing forever

Want a high armor but still DPSy with quick, low damage weapons? Go might/dex/per

Want a slow, well protected DPS fighter that uses big slow weapons for massive strikes? Go might+Int (for added chance to hit. You will not need much PER because of high base damage)

 

 

4) There is no real dump stat with this new system. Just a balance of how you want the character to be. An intelligent fighter is one that hits more, a powerful fighter is one that hits harder, a dex one hits faster, and perception can be either added to STR in order to make an uber damage (but low speed, low defence, low chance to hit) fighter, etc.

Want a good bow user? take high per/dex, want your ranger to be more melee oriented? use fighter stats, etc.

 

Only thing is wizards will probably not be schwartzennegers anymore but I for one am fine with it, even though obsidian aren't.

 

 

 

There you go! All attributes valid, but resulting in varied builds and maintaining intuitive application and in-game-scripted-dialogue consistency with the kind of character you actually want to make.

There's little chance obsidian will take this much improved system, but here is your fix. Good luck!

[Zwiebelchen]

Good job, you have successfully reverted this to any cookie cutter RPG stat system ever created.

 

Might is now only important to melees,

Perception is the new Might for casters, but also comes with defensive bonuses to that casters are the new tanks?

Intelligence is even more overpowered than it is currently, Barbarians will want to stack even more Intelligence

Resolve is even more of a must-have for tanks and overpowered because damage reduction is armor-only right now and should stay that way,

Constitution is still useless except for tanks, except nobody will have any specialized resistances anymore

Dex is now a tank stat, which leads to the weird solution that tanks attack blazing fast and DDs have high deflection scores.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[TheisEjsing]

Hah, such arrogance. This made me happy! ^_^

[Jerm]

thanks lightzy...so when's your patch coming?

[Lightzy]

Good job, you have successfully reverted this to any cookie cutter RPG stat system ever created.

 

Might is now only important to melees,

Perception is the new Might for casters, but also comes with defensive bonuses to that casters are the new tanks?

Intelligence is even more overpowered than it is currently, Barbarians will want to stack even more Intelligence

Resolve is even more of a must-have for tanks and overpowered because damage reduction is armor-only right now and should stay that way,

Constitution is still useless except for tanks, except nobody will have any specialized resistances anymore

Dex is now a tank stat, which leads to the weird solution that tanks attack blazing fast and DDs have high deflection scores.

 

 

 

1) Might is important to any melee class, yep. As it should be. You want muscles when you want to beat stuff up. I will mention again that all the might-based dialogue options in the game assume strong physical power, the ability to bend metal bars, etc.

 

2) Perception is not for casters, casters use magic attacks, not bows. Per is best for characters with weaker weapons who rely more on speed and a constant damage output which is small but steady, or to anyone who wants to use a bow well.

If you want your melee fighter to be able to open successfully with a bow (or your priest or whatever), per is a good choice.

 

3) Intelligence is useful for barbs who use very slow large weapons and carry heavy armor. However, they would still require more might/con than they would int, and in a more classic barbarian that's more DPS than defence oriented, you would forego INT in favor of dex, to use those big weapons faster, and to offset the lack of heavy armor.

 

4) Resolve is not must have for tanks unless they want to have high resist to mental attacks/mage attacks. They can get defensive by using high dex, or just using heavy armor. Resolve is not mandatory, but of course is useful. You want someone to stand in front of many enemies and hold them off for a long time? You need resolve buddy!

 

5) constitution is indeed useless to anyone but tanks or anyone who wants to live past a few plonks (for example your mage who wants to not be reduced to shreds by a few arrows from the enemy's back line, or to more easily survive AOE damage spells. Constitution is especially useful against AOEs and spells.

 

6) Dex is good for tanking if you want that kind of tank, which relies on luck rather than on staying power. A high dex 'tank' will indeed have an easier time avoiding getting hit by melee/ranged, but spells and AOEs will kill him easy, and his staying power relies on luck. A few good melee hits will kill him, while a high con/resolve tank will regularly out-tank him in terms of damage absorption.

 

Good arguments friend, it is very good that theories are challenged.

 

It is, however, no more cookie cutter than the current system. It just makes more sense and is better. Why is 'no cookie cutter, swhartzenneger mages' better than a more sensible system overall? just because it's "so out there man!!!" ?

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lightzy

[tinderbox]

Why isn't this in the other thread covering the same topic? o_0

[Zwiebelchen]

All these points are moot, if you clearly haven't played the game and understood it's underlying mechanics.

 

Damage Reduction is way more powerful than any other defensive stat if stacked, making resolve a must have not on par with any other tank stat.

Deflection is not really luck based due to how glancing, normal and critical attacks work. Instead, deflection is pretty much reliable; there is no reason not to go full deflection and just stack dex to absurdity, making a blazing fast tank that is in no way balanced.

 

You also have to balance stats as pairs, simply because the game allows you to max two stats at the same time. A barbarian currently takes MGT and INT primarily (and dumps DEX if he wants to go into negatives in other stats). This is to boost damage and AoE range and effect durations.

With your system, he would still go for exactly the same stats. Nothing changes, except that he now hits better than anyone, making it even more OP.

A tank build using RES, DEX, CON would be nearly unkillable and hit fast. Where is my tradeoff for being a full-tank? There are no real valid hybrids possible (contrary to what you postulate), as they are clearly not as viable due to how the mechanics in PoE work.

 

Casters will take INT, RES, DEX, being blazing fast nukers but now also have a **** ton of deflection and damage reduction??

 

 

Sorry, you seem to focus on one aspect only with this idea: that you don't want casters to have MGT. I don't care about the minor RP choices in dialogues in the game.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[CaptainMace]

So basically, in your system, might is useless for rangers and perception is useless for melee. Might and Per are useless to the spellcasters and Perception is useless for the ranger (lol).
Ninja edit, mea culpa, misread the stat names :')

 

Though, that's still pretty ad&d-ish, the point was to avoid these carcans.

 

The problem of the game doesn't reside in its core ruleset, it resides in the game design itself when it comes to random encounters in wilderness and xp gain out of crit path in the first half, making the rest way too easy on any difficulty.

Having access to tier 3 (extraordinary ? forgot the name) equipment and fighting folks with 3 less levels and banal gear is kinda depressing.
 

 

You also have to balance stats as pairs, simply because the game allows you to max two stats at the same time.

 

In a world of min-maxers yes, I guess AD&D would be an actually excellent system regarding attributes. But otherwise...

Edited March 31, 2015 by CaptainMace

[garr71]

"2) Intuitive grasp of the system where physical stats contributes to physicality and "spiritual" stats contributes to spirituality, instead of the unintuitive crap where a wizard must be swhartzenneger"

 

I've read this type of line so much lately, aren't people reading the freaking game text? Might isn't strength and the game states its not only physical might but spiritual might....

 

To me the stats are actually a nice step in the right direction of leaving D&D behind, adapt man, adapt. My only criticism is the fact that con bonus is percentage based so it gives less value per point to low health classes making it an weak stat all around imo.

[Lightzy]

All these points are moot, if you clearly haven't played the game and understood it's underlying mechanics.

 

Damage Reduction is way more powerful than any other defensive stat if stacked, making resolve a must have not on par with any other tank stat.

Deflection is not really luck based due to how glancing, normal and critical attacks work. Instead, deflection is pretty much reliable; there is no reason not to go full deflection and just stack dex to absurdity, making a blazing fast tank that is in no way balanced.

 

You also have to balance stats as pairs, simply because the game allows you to max two stats at the same time. A barbarian currently takes MGT and INT primarily (and dumps DEX if he wants to go into negatives in other stats). This is to boost damage and AoE range and effect durations.

With your system, he would still go for exactly the same stats. Nothing changes, except that he now hits better than anyone, making it even more OP.

A tank build using RES, DEX, CON would be nearly unkillable and hit fast. Where is my tradeoff for being a full-tank? There are no real valid hybrids possible (contrary to what you postulate), as they are clearly not as viable due to how the mechanics in PoE work.

 

Casters will take INT, RES, DEX, being blazing fast nukers but now also have a **** ton of deflection and damage reduction??

 

 

Sorry, you seem to focus on one aspect only with this idea: that you don't want casters to have MGT. I don't care about the minor RP choices in dialogues in the game.

 

I eagerly welcome discussion!

 

 

Good points, however I do not make allowances for how badly balanced the stats in the game currently are. Of course the fact that DR is most powerful needs to be rebalanced.

Deflection  = the ability to simply not be hit. Which is reliable, overall, but still luck based, favoring a fighter who fights against high damage, slow hitters.

Damage reduction = to be hit but to reduce the damage taken, favoring a fighter who goes against fast, low damage hitters.

If currently one is unbalanced, then it needs to be balanced, that's a given.

 

A barbarian with high STR and INT will hit hard with big weapons and be consistent in landing hits, but be nearly unable to defend himself and exceedingly slow if taking on heavy armor, suffering both from armor speed reduction and from no dex.

As such, it will struggle against fast dodging/deflecting enemies which its slow hits will often miss, and be more suited to taking on huge monsters.

I quite like this barbarian. It is very RP-worthy as well. And it is one of many possible paths, all viable. What is the problem with this?

A fighter who uses more speed and smaller weapons will need perception in order to penetrate DR, which sort of makes sense too. How much perception do you need when swinging a huge hammer in comparison with using two small daggers?

 

A tank build with res,dex,con will indeed be quite unkillable, but how will you load up on all 3? such a tank will do no real damage and have difficulty hitting anything, ending up as the lowest DPS character. You'll have to dump either int (miss a lot), per (gimped in armor penetration), or might (outright base damage). That too is fine as I see it.

 

Casters will indeed take int, res, dex, but how will they split them? high speed, high damage, or AOE+duration? very different type of caster. Like you have very different kind of fighters. Also, if it completely foregoes CON, it might die very quickly when faced with AOE damage effects, wizards having naturally low deflection and HP.

 

 

Also, personally I care quite a bit about the RP aspects presented in in-game dialogue. It's a big part of the game for me, in shaping my character's personal story according to the kind of character I chose. Current game mechanics make creating the character of my choice a bad idea, because the might stat rules over all.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lightzy

[Monte Carlo]

I find it interesting that a year or so ago a lot of folks on this page insisted RPG systems / mechanics needed to be 'intuitive' 'simple' and 'clean.'

 

I was inclined to agree, more or less.

 

Now PoE is released, they seem to have had a Damascene conversion. The underlying mechanics are counter-intuitive, dense and byzantine. Yet hordes of folks love it.

 

Y'all the new grognards. Congrats.

[CaptainMace]

Dense and byzantine ? Wut ?

[drunetovich]

I keep smiling at might affecting shots from pistols and arbalests - what are you doing really, pulling trigger so hard that projectiles gain extra speed or mass? This is just silly.

[Monte Carlo]

I keep smiling at might affecting shots from pistols and arbalests - what are you doing really, pulling trigger so hard that projectiles gain extra speed or mass? This is just silly.

 

Never underestimate THE POWA OF TEH MINDDD!!!

[SeekDWay]

I like your "fix". :D

 

Stats are bland as it is, but reverting to the stone age is not a good thing.

 

What I think needs fixing is differentiate between stats. Give each stat a unique twist. Con and Might look good to me, but everything else is just meh or indistinguishable.

Edited March 31, 2015 by SeekDWay

[Kagemane]

Wow, such arrogance.

 

No, I do not like your system. I much prefer the stats we have right now in the game, where all stats are somewhat useful to all classes.

With your system, why have stats altogether if we will get the same cookie cutter builds? I hate that in most games.

 

One of the best parts of Pillars of Eternity is that stat system. LEAVE IT

[Zwiebelchen]

The only thing that is needed to balance the current system is to make interrupts more desirable. There. Done.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[PrimeJunta]

@Zwiebelchen have you tried making an interrupter build? I did -- for a bit -- and it was rather lulzy.

[Zwiebelchen]

@Zwiebelchen have you tried making an interrupter build? I did -- for a bit -- and it was rather lulzy.

 

I haven't experimented with that yet, but so far it feels like interrupt is only good if you really go for it in terms of talents and stat build. Having it as a second thought on your character rarely works and this is kind of the problem here.

[gkathellar]

@drunetovich - Everything in this setting runs on spiritual energy. Might is a measure of the soul's ability to act on the outside world, regardless of means.

[Katarack21]

Basically the problem is simply that the game doesn't have an alternate script for high-might casters, and therefore people that I can only assume are sitting at the computer with their DMG out are screaming "CASTERS SHOULDN'T BE STRONG!" with absolutely no thought to how the system and world actually work.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Katarack21

[Lightzy]

Wow, such arrogance.

 

No, I do not like your system. I much prefer the stats we have right now in the game, where all stats are somewhat useful to all classes.

With your system, why have stats altogether if we will get the same cookie cutter builds? I hate that in most games.

 

One of the best parts of Pillars of Eternity is that stat system. LEAVE IT

 

Have you actually read what I propose?

With what I propose you are not pigeonholed into the same build forever as with the current system. With what I propose you can use any stat combinations to create any kind of fighter, for example, that you want, and it would still make sense.

If you cannot grasp anything intricate, then at least do not respond with a "hands on eyes" approach of "u pigeonholer!"

 

 

Katarack: what people are saying is that you shouldn't NEED to max might in order to have a good wizard. Right now the system forces you into absurdities. Pigeonholes you like a mothaf..., only in a "groovy unorthodox out of the box!!!! WOOHOO!" way.

In short all it does is replace the traditional "int" with "might": for wizards and everyone are like "oooh that's so new", but you're basically only forced to get might now, and have all your dialogue options assume that you're superman instead of whatever kind of character you wanted to play, for example, a smart wizard.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lightzy

[PrimeJunta]

@Ligtzy start by addressing the criticisms instead of ranting.

 

Your system isn't very good and several people ITT have pointed out exactly why.

[Lightzy]

And I pointed out why they were incorrect, though you have not read it for some reason

[PrimeJunta]

I did read them. I just didn't think you addressed them. E.g. the unkillable tank, you replied "how are you going to pump those three stats?" By dumping the other three, duh. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to do a lot better than that.