Reasons this game is un-finished

[Lephys]

Sorry but the fact that OTHER games are buggy is not an excuse for THIS game to be buggy.

What do you suppose is a reason for this game to be buggy? Sincere question.

 

I'm not suggesting that the mere fact that other games are buggy IS an excuse. But, perhaps the reasons why some other games are buggy is an excuse for this game to be buggy, because actual reasons. *shrug*

 

 

Then i play "You are just a fan that will buy any crap from the producer you adore" card.

So, we have two choices, then, do we?

 

1) Baselessly conclude that there's absolutely no reason why any video game ever made should ever have any problems, or

2) Baselessly conclude that, since Obsidian made it, it's solid gold?

 

I choose option 3: Understand how extensive the process of making this game really was, then decide things from there. All things considered, this game is more finished than many other games that have had even fewer excuses to not-be finished.

 

You can stick with option 1, if you'd really like to. That's fine. You have the right to any opinion you'd like. I just thought I'd provide my perspective on things, in case it's actually deemed at all useful in your mind. My posts are merely a resource. You can burn them in a fire for all I care, but I won't know what you're going to do with them until I make them, now will I?

 

Here is the data:

 

Obsidian said that because there is no producer the game will be polished and not bugged like usual. - They failed at that.

Obsidian asked for 1 mil, they got 4 mil - They failed at planning the budget.

Obsidian made their own timetable - They failed at keeping it.

Obsidian chose the engine - They failed at mastering it.

 

So how is that not THEIR fault.

If I remember correctly you were one of the people that were very vocal about how this will be so good and polished game because there is no developer every time someone was concerned with the quality of the game. And now you backpedal on your statement because lack of money, people and unfamiliar engine? Come on at least try not to be a mindless fandrone.

Hahaha... You don't remember correctly. All I ever said was, it'll be really nice to see how the game turns out with Obsidian in full control of it, rather than someone else saying "Nah, cut that character and put this character in, because SALES!"

 

The lack of a publisher (who funds your project and has final say over it) brings with it pros AND cons. I knew this was going to be a much smaller project, and that they'd have far fewer resources at their disposal, so I kinda foresaw some shortcomings. I wish there was more extensive crafting in the game, more extensive stealth, etc. But, I understand why there isn't.

 

You say they failed at all those things (I'm fairly certain they never said "this game won't be buggy," but... *shrug*), but what was the other option? Are you playing the game? Because, if you are, would you rather there just wasn't a game? Is it SO bad that you wish the game didn't exist, and that Obsidian weren't getting to continue making games?

 

There are things in life called "limitations." You can't just bypass them because you will them to be gone. They only had so many resources at their disposal, so they couldn't just go "Hey guys, let's master Unity first, THEN make a game, 8D! *high fives all around*". So, yeah, they failed to master Unity. Understandably so. Oh, maybe they should've just used the Infinity Engine to make this game? Oh wait... they don't own that. So, what else were they gonna do? Will a magical engine into existence that they had already mastered and would perfectly serve to let them make a modern game?

 

Yeah, you're being awfully reasonable here, Sharp_One. My goodness... humans estimated a timeframe for something, and it wasn't EXACTLY precise and flawless?! HUMANS PLANS' CAN ONLY BE SO ACCURATE?! *hyperventilates* WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?!!!!

 

Do better, or point to someone who's done better. Then, you at least have data that suggest a team of humans could've done better.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Lephys

[aiqidar]

There are people who actually think the stealth mechanic was some design choice that had serious thought put into it? Group stealth is one of the most obvious mistakes in the game, and I doubt even the people who made this game would disagree at this point. The only question is whether this clearly broken mechanic is going to be fixed in a patch or an expansion.

 

I said before in another thread, I'm amazed that that something like this ever got through beta to begin with.

[Zorfab]

1. Broken stealth mechanics that need to be changed to individual stealth. - True, plus I do not like how scouting is also tied to perception, which makes me crawl everywhere using double speed so I don`t miss hidden stashes.

 

2. Not being able to drop items out of inventory or on to the game world ground. - With the inventory mechanics they chose, it doesn`t matter. Divinity handled this issue very well though, and integrated item manipulation to their gameplay. Half-assed option to drop items but not having any function for the dropping would actually be the worst choice.

 

3. Seeing all npcs in the game world walk but you cant unless its a game movie scene. - Don`t care about walking, but it is funny omission nonetheless. Would probably be extremely easy to implement too since animation is already in game.

 

4. No options to bash open or break locks on chests , doors, or cabinets. - This one is definitely something that is missing. You even have prybars in game that would be great for this. And game even has fatigue, so you could just let players to open some doors and containers with it and suffer fatigue depending on their athletics skill level.

 

5. No ammunition for ranged weapons. This is very strange. - I prefer D:OS mechanics, where normal arrows are free of charge, but special arrows are consumables that you can use in place of regular attack. Actual arrow stacks and such are much better for survival / RPG games that have very lethal combat and force hard choices on what equipment to carry and what to leave behind (this using systems that are actually pretty realistic, like GURPS or something like that).

 

6. No option to pass time. - True, and should be implemented. Would also be very easy to do.

 

- I`m also finding that limited rests are not so limited. Almost all locations are static and stay as you left it if you bail out to get more supplies from city inn and return. It just wastes time when it is done this way. Game should feature a possibility of failure or bad consequences if you leave in mid mission, like enemies completing their objective or reinforcing their troops heavily. This would be great way to implement more alternative plot paths as well. Alternatively, you should not be able to leave until you are dead or the mission is complete.

[askevi]

My own personal list:

 

1) Why is there no option to turn off the fog of war?

 

2) Why is the priest I rolled up from the Inn armed with a melee weapon, and why do they insist on using this weapon in melee as a default instead of using spells?  

 

3) Why do I have to micromanage every spellcaster because they don't use the appropriate spells?

 

4) Why is there no option to drop a member of the party?  One of my party members got stuck in Raedric Keep, and there was nothing I could do but reload.  I would rather have just dropped them on the spot and kept going, but...."You must gather your party before going forth."

 

5) Why did Kolse tell me I could take anything I wanted from the castle, and the guards didn't mind, but the priests decided I was stealing and killed me instantly.  For that matter, why were the guards pushovers in the Keep, but the priests so difficult for the same party?

 

I like the game so far.  It's fun and reminds me of my youth spent playing those old Black Isle games.  But it's no Baldur's Gate.  And it's decidedly unfriendly to anyone who doesn't have a lot of RPG experience.  Why there is no starter area that runs you through things like the quick save slots and how the inventory works, I don't understand.  And yes, I know there are the tutorial tips, but they feel tacked on as an afterthought.  I didn't figure out I even had the stash until Raedric's Keep.  

 

For the $30 I spent on the Kickstarter tier, I definitely feel like I got my money's worth.  But I do find myself wishing it had the polish of a BGIII, instead of feeling like its inferior cousin.

[Lephys]

There are people who actually think the stealth mechanic was some design choice that had serious thought put into it?

Well... I mean... I'm fairly certain it was a deliberate design choice under the circumstances. I don't think they accidentally ended up with group stealth. But, I don't think it was their ideal choice. I think that was how far they developed a stealth system before having to move on to other stuff or let the game suffer in other areas.

[gladestone]

Been playing since thursday..Ive maybe seen a few bugs here and there nothing game breaking..My dwarf was stuck in one area that was it..All i did was reload..Games fun an a masterpiece..Its one of obsidian best...Its very polished an a great system..As one poster said some players just complain to complain..Its how the game was built an the flaws your mentioning are just silly..Bashing a door is not being finished..How about putting points into mechanics to unlock the door..Its been a great game for most of us so far..

[aiqidar]

Also for the "why walk" crowd, I suggest watching this video, particlarly the part where he talks about always closing the doors behind him while playiing Half-Life 2, even though he knows it makes no gameplay difference. I personally prefer to walk rather than run in games for the same reason I prefer to walk in real-life: unless there's some urgent thing I need to be at right away, running around is just weird. Now, the people who just run everywhere because it saves time probably just don't care about physical immersion. I.e. maybe they just care about being immersed in the storyline and dialogues, not so much the moving and fighting.

 

Someone brought up Baldur's Gate earlier. That's actually an instructive example. When I played, I did want to be fully immersed at all levels, so I had to put a great deal of effort into essentially running everything I saw on-sceen through a mental filter where I re-imagined it happening in an actual visual sense (which is kind of what we had to do anyway when playing roguelikes and text-based games back in the day). Obviously games have come a long way since then and the burden that players have to carry in terms of immersion has reduced. And Obsidian has the chance to make things even easier by putting in a simple thing like walking.

[aiqidar]

 

There are people who actually think the stealth mechanic was some design choice that had serious thought put into it?

Well... I mean... I'm fairly certain it was a deliberate design choice under the circumstances. I don't think they accidentally ended up with group stealth. But, I don't think it was their ideal choice. I think that was how far they developed a stealth system before having to move on to other stuff or let the game suffer in other areas.

 

 

Here's what I think happened. Party scouting actually makes perfect sense, and is in fact a great convenience feature too. When I'm looking around for secrets, it's much more efficient to have everybody looking at once. You can send them to different places, cover ground more quickly than if you had just one. It's realistic too.

 

But then at some point they decided to consolidate scouting and stealth into the same action. Which itself was a mistake, and by itself would have been a small mistake. But in conjunction with the party acting all at once, it results in something that catastrophically undermines the entire tactical aspect of the game's stealth system.

[Jasta11]

For a 4 million dollar Kickstarter title, the game is remarkably finished. I have seen very little bugs myself, albeit I've heard about a few serious ones. Par for the course for Obsidian games.

 

Most of what is stated is minor convenience. Others might simply have been design decisions (no lock bash for instance). No ammunition is also a blessing if you ask me, that would just be annoying and limit ranged character's usefullness in longer stretches between merchants.

[Prime-Mover]

- I`m also finding that limited rests are not so limited. Almost all locations are static and stay as you left it if you bail out to get more supplies from city inn and return. It just wastes time when it is done this way. Game should feature a possibility of failure or bad consequences if you leave in mid mission, like enemies completing their objective or reinforcing their troops heavily. This would be great way to implement more alternative plot paths as well. Alternatively, you should not be able to leave until you are dead or the mission is complete.

 

IMO, so far (only at Raedric's Hold), I think it's great. The allure of going back to the inn, is usually outweighed by the hassle, so I almost always rely on camping supplies, and approach combat and exploration with a conservation of resources  mindset. Not that I would mind some consequence of backtracking, but so far, it's not really been all that relevant.

[Ink Blot]

Game should feature a possibility of failure or bad consequences if you leave in mid mission, like enemies completing their objective or reinforcing their troops heavily. This would be great way to implement more alternative plot paths as well. Alternatively, you should not be able to leave until you are dead or the mission is complete.

I can see what you're saying and can even agree with the first part of the post. But the bolded part? That would be a horrible, horrible mechanic.

[Lephys]

Here's what I think happened. Party scouting actually makes perfect sense, and is in fact a great convenience feature too. When I'm looking around for secrets, it's much more efficient to have everybody looking at once. You can send them to different places, cover ground more quickly than if you had just one. It's realistic too.

 

But then at some point they decided to consolidate scouting and stealth into the same action. Which itself was a mistake, and by itself would have been a small mistake. But in conjunction with the party acting all at once, it results in something that catastrophically undermines the entire tactical aspect of the game's stealth system.

Yeah, I mean, they built all this from scratch in Unity, so I think scouting is about as far as they got with a framework for that sort of thing. But, I don't think that they so much actively decided "Yeah! This would be GREAT if Stealth and this were just the exact same thing and game state!", as much as it was just either that, or have a really crappy individual Stealth system in, or no Stealth system at all, or have something else in the game suffer really badly (maybe some areas were missing, or a character, etc.).

 

There are plenty of dev comments about things they kept trying, but kept having severe problems with, so that they went with something else. So, I think it was one of those things. "Okay, we spent a month trying to do this, but we haven't even gotten off the ground with it. That's obviously going to take us a lot longer to get functional. Should we go with something lesser, or nothing at all? Okay, something lesser, then."

 

Not ideal, but they did what they could, I think. They were working with relatively few resources for a game of this scope.

[Mdalton31]

I am just going to wait a year and then come back to the game and see what mods have come about and what changes have been made. peace I'm outta here.

[Matt516]

Not sure if someone has pointed this out already, but you CAN drop items. It's a button literally on the bottom of the inventory screen. C'mon, dude.

 

The rest of your complaints are design decisions. The first (stealth) they are planning to change, but party stealth was a design decision in the first place. None of those issues constitute anything being "unfinished". There are plenty of things to critique (a few of the gamebreaking bugs for one), but middling complaints like yours aren't really among them.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Matt516

[GreyFox]

The stealth mechanic is pretty bad, especially since you have to be in that same mode to search/find hidden stuff.

[dancingcrab]

Not sure if someone has pointed this out already, but you CAN drop items. It's a button literally on the bottom of the inventory screen. C'mon, dude.

 

There is?!? Gonna have to look for that next time I fire it up!

[kozzy]

The game is not broken stop it with the attention seeking and acting entitled. If you have some things you wish improved or fixed then fine but its far from broken. I with the pathfinding was better, but I am not going to call the game broken.

[darqleo]

cool story bro

[darqleo]

I don't care about answering anymore replies to this, the only reason I posted it was in hope the devs would read it.

I don't care how anyone feels regarding what I wrote, I just hope these things will be changed by them reading it.

(done.)

 

Well then, you could have bypassed the forum and just emailed them.

[Katarack21]

Are there bugs? Yes. There always are in a large release--ALWAYS. And yes, those bugs can be fixed.

But the game is not broken. It works--you can start it, play all the way through, and finish it. I haven't had a single bug occur that would stop me from playing the game. I did hit the Raedrics Hold bug, but I saved just before going down the stairs to the room that bugged, and that room didn't have anything in it at all, so I just loaded the save and continued onward. I quicksave like a madman, constantly, because I played Baldurs Gate and Baldur's Gate II and I know any fight could be my last if I **** up or the enemies do something unexpected, and there could be enemies anywhere just outside of my sight range.

[Oerwinde]

I don't get the bugfest accusation. I'm 20 hours in and haven't experienced a single bug yet.

[Messier-31]

I don't get the bugfest accusation. I'm 20 hours in and haven't experienced a single bug yet.

 

What year is in your in-game journal?

[Katarack21]

 

I don't get the bugfest accusation. I'm 20 hours in and haven't experienced a single bug yet.

 

Good for you. There are however numerous people that did experience bugs and some of them were game breaking.

 

The only game-breaking bug I've seen with any frequency is the Raedrics Hold bug, and a lot of people didn't even get that.

 

What other game-breakers have you heard about?

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

If you have some things you wish improved or fixed then fine but its far from broken.

 

Fanboism among you guys is mind bogling. 

If there are things that can be fixed then they are broken. Otherwise why fix it if it ain't broken?

 

Sure let's pretend there are no bugs and all the people reporting bugs are just delusional and blind to the greatness PoE is. Whatever keeps your little fantasy land intact.

 

But in realityland Obsidian proved that the title Bugsidian is well earned and not the fault of publishers as they so eagerly stated in the past.

 

Anybody here ever play Vampire: the Masquerade: Bloodlines unpatched?

 

I know it was technically Troika, not Obsidian, but same difference.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure where all the hate for Obsidian is coming from. In my experience they're no better or worse than any other development studio when it comes to buggy releases. I'm pretty sure buggy games have more to do with the business of making games than it does with the designers' skill and craft (or lack thereof).

 

Pillars of Eternity, much like its fellow Kickstarter project Wasteland 2, does feel like playing a beta at release. I think it could be argued that's taking advantage of the demonstrably loyal fans who paid for the game before there was a game, but hey. It's not like they'll give the game a bad review because of some bugs, so you might as well use them to find said bugs. It's okay to take advantage of people who want you to take advantage of them.

[Katarack21]

It wasn't technically Troika, it was Troika. Tim Cain was there, but it was a completely different company. Obsidian didn't have anything to do with VtM:B. If I'm not mistaken, Obisidian was busy with KOTOR 2--which had it's own issues in production and release thanks to LucasArts.