Journalism and bias in the gaming industry

[Malcador]

Don't think there's much context to that, really, one can only guess as to what that meant. Maybe trying to get a job with the Turkish government ?

[Fighter]

 

Context? Because I don't get the hilarity. It just looks like a guy denying the Armenian genocide.

 

Context is:

 

a) He is not tweeting at her. He is not even using her last name. He is not harassing her. She went searching for things to make her feel harassed and found them.

 

b) He is making a factual statement. He is purposefully agreeing with her. But she went searching for things to be offended by and chose to interpret the words to be offended.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Fighter

[Nonek]

 

What did I do? As I said I don't like to brag dear boy, but once again thank you for the attribution, my part was small but together us ants can move mountains. Off to celebrate with a nice Mosel, chin chin.

 

So basically you haven't done anything, yet you say "we". I guess it's nice to think of yourself as crusader for justice without actually having to do anything.

 

 

No Mr Sakai I did my part, sent e-mails to sponsors, supported various causes financially and stayed balanced and moderate in my stance. Then again i've got a large cellar, which contributes to a mans equanimity i've found. Thank you for the interest however, I still can't accept that i'm solely responsible like you state however, i'm really not that egotistical.

 

On the Armenian "joke," not sure I approve but of course my approval or disapproval means nothing, it has a right to exist independent of my feelings. I belive however that the "jokes" teller might well be mocking how Ms Sarkeesian turns everything into a personal attack against herself.

 

I think I may open a second bottle before venturing into the land of Nod, this is very good.

 

Edit: It's very nice to see such activity in this thread once again, together we will assuredly reach our goals, thank you for keeping this thread up on the top pages where it belongs.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Nonek

[Fighter]

[Malcador]

Heh, yeah, sarcasm goes well in tweets. I assume he's being dogpiled by the Just, right now ?

[Fighter]

Well he is definitely a troll. And yes, somewhat dogpiled. Because they aren't getting it even after he had to explain the joke.

[Zoraptor]

There is nothing in the forum guidelines that says I can't lecture and reprimand.  Yay for free speech.

 

Maybe if I was driving this thread off-topc, that might be a decent argument for constantly telling me to leave the thread, but you guys rarely discuss actual journalism here.

 

It is "journalism and bias in the games industry" though, not just games journalism. That's an important distinction, as most of the discussion is on topic for the games industry part of it. Plus, of course, twitter and the like are now regarded in many places as nuMedia/ citizen journalists/ serious commentators on issues and much as I may personally dislike it that is a blade that cuts both ways. Don't get hung up on the cliche of "it's about ethics in games journalism", plenty myself included care far more about the attempts at censorship than about what inducements someone I don't read gets for saying stuff about something I likely won't play.

 

In any case, under the aegis of 'games industry' people related to the games industry or journalists or even individuals commenting is fair game whether it be someone complaining about Vavra saying something 'outrageous' or someone complaining about Schaefer saying something 'outrageous'. I think you would have a point if there were some overt harassment or encouragement to do so going on, but there really isn't and I haven't seen any apart from the occasional 'email these sponsors' type suggestion and, well, if that counts for harassment then there's been a lot of harassment going on, for decades, from every interest group. If people are looking for places their stupid tweets have been published there are far more important places to look at than here- at twitter itself or at the person in the mirror who posted them in very many cases; especially if they're embarrassed enough about making them to have deleted them post facto. In the last case the best 'solution' would be to have actually thought about what you were writing, 140 characters is a stupid limitation prone to allowing absolutely no nuance whatsoever but people should be aware of that. It's easy enough to write stupid in a forum, and you you don't have to worry about a word limit either. For that reason I'm pretty glad there was no comment here about Chris Priestley's comment re CalgaryExpo because he did actually apologise (may have been forced by cdpr, but meh, benefit of doubt so far as I am concerned) as did a couple of other people with pretty good grace- that is all you can really ask from anyone, given twitter's format. 

 

I do find the idea of trawling through people's social media looking for gotchas decidedly unappealing and generally rather reminiscent of witch trial/ McCarthyist thinking, in theory at least- everyone has said stuff that in retrospect is dumb or makes them look bad or that they regret, or even stuff that may be unpleasant but not really relevant; using that against them potentially years later is questionable and often a cheap way to try and get them to stfu. But, it is so in terms like 'often' and 'generally', it can be appropriate and where the line is drawn in terms of 'decorum' is very much subjective.

 

Really though, if you're comparing GG to ISIS or the KKK, calling for all men to be killed or whatever on a public forum you should have a reasonable expectation that you will attract attention, and that some of it will be negative. If they think it's all going to be positive feedback then they aren't much in touch with reality.

[Malcador]

Poor troll too, but I guess one can't expect too much from BroTeamPill, hah. Hm, wonder if GG can make it to one year - certainly seems possible with the easily triggered targets.

[Volourn]

GG will always exist as long as white male gamers exist. Because the angti GG crew want all white males murdered. They even wrote multiple articles proclaiming us as alreayd being dead... yet here we are.

 

The funny part they stll enjoy attacking women and minorities ebcause SJWs are hateful nazis who are all about power, control, and slavery.

[Malcador]

And bad hairstyles, Volo, can't forget those.

[HoonDing]

Bro Team Pill Bro is Turkish?

[ravenshrike]

 

 

 

 

So both KP and Longknife would rather me lobby for censorship than decorum?

 

This is why it is hard to take this movement seriously.

I chalk it up to the beginning of the whole thing, where the GG side was calling for dialogue and discussion while the aGG side was calling us a hate group who didn't deserve a voice.

 

If we're talking about botched first impressions, let's not forget that "ETHICS!" wasn't really an issue for gamergaters until gamergate actually became a thing. So, based on those early days, the "beginning of the whole thing", as you put it, "hate group that doesn't deserve a voice" was actually not that far off from the truth.

Sure if you equate GamerGate with BurgersAndFries, which I don't. For me, and for most of who I consider GamerGate, the first shot was the Gamers are Dead articles. Yes a lot of the BurgersAndFries people were early GG supporters, but it would have disappeared without those articles.

 

 

You mean the articles that literally don't exist in the form gamergate is so fond of painting them as (Ie. "an organized attack against gamer identity by games journalists")?

 

Because, well, "gamergaters aren't a hate group, they just failed to interpret correctly a body of texts even a high schooler should have no problems understanding" isn't really making the movement come across any better.

 

Yeah... the 72 hours following Baldwin's tweet dubbing it GamerGate was in NO WAY WHATSOEVER a coordinated media blitz against standard gamer identity. It just spontaneously occurred. Just like the recent media blitz against Sad Puppies was in NO WAY a coordinated attack against them because after all, major media installations regularly trumpet about the state of populist(what the Hugo actually is) SF/F literary awards voted on by less than 2000 people at a con with less than 5000 people on average. They also regularly court libel in doing so which is why Entertainment Weekly didn't rip down their spoonfed libelous pile of dog **** faster than you can type William Randolph Hearst. Wait, no, that's EXACTLY what they did.

[Fighter]

Bro Team Pill Bro is Turkish?

 

The entire country of Turkey is harassing Anita. And you thought it was about the genocide didn't you?

[BruceVC]

 

Is attacking SJW's in a place where there are no SJW's all that sensible?  Maybe I'm just trying to fit in.

Well it is, forums are for collective bashing or praise after all. Not really sensible to wade in to something that annoys you, then whine about it but refrain from taking measures to resolve it. But, again, the conclusion that's left is probably accurate.

 

As for Gamergate doing anything, nahh, all it's done is raise the profile and Patreon donations of Sarkeesian, Wu, Quinn, etc. And I guess given Twitter hounds who want to show how socially aware they are (like Cheong) some meat to get some credibility. But hey at least no one died, people were seriously speaking of ruined lives with this silliness.

 

 

I tend to agree with this sentiment.

 

 

Depending on the forum and thread you will generally find support or dislike for one perspective  within the SJ narrative, there isn't much middle-ground. The best you can hope for is a semblance of not really objective debate but people at least recognizing a different opinion as possibly valid. But it still doesn't seem to change peoples general stance which is often a disappointment for me...but not a surprise

 

And the reason its not a surprise for me is because you need to break down what people who support GG are really saying. Well at least the people on this forum who support GG

 

Firstly I don't think there are any real bigots on this thread. There are several people who are white, heterosexual males who truly believe that there lifestyle is beset by SJW. Now I need to repeat that for maximum impact  " there are people on this thread who believe there lifestyle is beset by SJW". They feel that SJW are hypocrites and say one thing and act another way....and they are always criticizing....always criticizing

 

So that leads me to my next series of questions. This is addressed to everyone who has been actively supporting GG over the last 8 months or so. This includes Nonek, Volo, Meshugger, KP, Fighter, KP, Longknife and Kirottu ( sorry if I left anyone out and of course I welcome all comments  ).

 

1. What would you say now if Leigh Alexander said in regards to the original article  " I didn't mean all white, male gamers " ..I only meant " white, male gamers who refuse to accept or believe in transformation". This view is very relevant to the original anger as I see people still raise this as a reason for the general dislike of the SJ narrative. Someone like Nonek still bring this up in his diatribe against SJW and SJF ( an appalling characterization for SJW but I see Nonek still uses it )  and it is  justification for support of GG for many people. So what would you now think if Leigh Alexander said " she didn't mean all white male gamers?
2.  Can you give me just 3 valid examples of how your gaming experience has changed due to SJ influence...and these examples must be meaningful. So please don't give examples like
   1. I don't visit RPS and Polygon anymore because of there biased reviews on GG ( you never visited RPS and Polygon to begin with )
   2. The limerick was edited in PoE ( this makes no change to the actual game )
   3. I don't like the fact there is a call to remove hookers from GTAV...I like killing hookers and any other character in the game with my car ( Rockstar despite the criticism hasn't removed hookers from the game )

 

So I want 3, just 3, examples of how your gaming experience has been altered due to the SJ narrative. I am going to make a prediction, you guys are going to battle to find 3 meaningful examples because the reality is I don't think they really exist. Most of examples of so called SJ interference is based on nebulous accusations and Twitter comments. But if you think about the actual changes that you guys claim to be opposing I don't see any that are significant ?

 

So if that's true then you guys need to ask some introspective questions to yourselves that should include a simple point  " what am I really objecting to"  when it comes to opposing the SJ movement ?

 

Lets try to leave the emotion out this debate and deal with the facts and changes in the gaming industry that are really happening and are really diluting your gaming experience ?

Edited April 20, 2015 by BruceVC

[Nonek]

 

 

Is attacking SJW's in a place where there are no SJW's all that sensible?  Maybe I'm just trying to fit in.

Well it is, forums are for collective bashing or praise after all. Not really sensible to wade in to something that annoys you, then whine about it but refrain from taking measures to resolve it. But, again, the conclusion that's left is probably accurate.

 

As for Gamergate doing anything, nahh, all it's done is raise the profile and Patreon donations of Sarkeesian, Wu, Quinn, etc. And I guess given Twitter hounds who want to show how socially aware they are (like Cheong) some meat to get some credibility. But hey at least no one died, people were seriously speaking of ruined lives with this silliness.

 

 

I tend to agree with this sentiment.

 

 

Depending on the forum and thread you will generally find support or dislike for one perspective  within the SJ narrative, there isn't much middle-ground. The best you can hope for is a semblance of not really objective debate but people at least recognizing a different opinion as possibly valid. But it still doesn't seem to change peoples general stance which is often a disappointment for me...but not a surprise

 

And the reason its not a surprise for me is because you need to break down what people who support GG are really saying. Well at least the people on this forum who support GG

 

Firstly I don't think there are any real bigots on this thread. There are several people who are white, heterosexual males who truly believe that there lifestyle is beset by SJW. Now I need to repeat that for maximum impact  " there are people on this thread who believe there lifestyle is beset by SJW". They feel that SJW are hypocrites and say one thing and act another way....and they are always criticizing....always criticizing

 

So that leads me to my next series of questions. This is addressed to everyone who has been actively supporting GG over the last 8 months or so. This includes Nonek, Volo, Meshugger, KP, Fighter, KP, Longknife and Kirottu ( sorry if I left anyone out and of course I welcome all comments  ).

 

1. What would you say now if Leigh Alexander said in regards to the original article  " I didn't mean all white, male gamers " ..I only meant " white, male gamers who refuse to accept or believe in transformation". This view is very relevant to the original anger as I see people still raise this as a reason for the general dislike of the SJ narrative. Someone like Nonek still bring this up in his diatribe against SJW and SJF ( an appalling characterization for SJW but I see Nonek still uses it )  and it is  justification for support of GG for many people. So what would you now think if Leigh Alexander said " she didn't mean all white male gamers?
2.  Can you give me just 3 valid examples of how your gaming experience has changed due to SJ influence...and these examples must be meaningful. So please don't give examples like
   1. I don't visit RPS and Polygon anymore because of there biased reviews on GG ( you never visited RPS and Polygon to begin with )
   2. The limerick was edited in PoE ( this makes no change to the actual game )
   3. I don't like the fact there is a call to remove hookers from GTAV...I like killing hookers and any other character in the game with my car ( Rockstar despite the criticism hasn't removed hookers from the game )

 

So I want 3, just 3, examples of how your gaming experience has been altered due to the SJ narrative. I am going to make a prediction, you guys are going to battle to find 3 meaningful examples because the reality is I don't think they really exist. Most of examples of so called SJ interference is based on nebulous accusations and Twitter comments. But if you think about the actual changes that you guys claim to be opposing I don't see any that are significant ?

 

So if that's true then you guys need to ask some introspective questions to yourselves that should include a simple point  " what am I really objecting to"  when it comes to opposing the SJ movement ?

 

Lets try to leave the emotion out this debate and deal with the facts and changes in the gaming industry that are really happening and are really diluting your gaming experience ?

 

 

1. Why would anyone be content with an apology to just white male gamers? Ms Alexander and her moronic cronies insulted all the diverse millions whom play games recreationally, she must therefore apologise to all gamers, male, female, black, yellow, red, white and of mixed race. This should be obvious.

 

2. Ways in which SJF's have impacted ones gaming experience, very well: 

1. They have declared all gamers dead, alienating a vast amount of people, thus creating Gamergate and various far more ethical alternatives to the current corrupt press.

2. They have created a hateful and toxic atmosphere on the internet, with totally innocent people whom do not even have Twitter accounts being labelled harassers and various other perjorative terms when they are simply asking for an industry to be fit for purpose. Thus creating a poor false impression of those whom game recreationally as we see in the Law & Order: SJF episode.

3. They have sunk game journalism to an all time low, to the point where it is a laughing stock and is dragging other forms of journalism down with it.

4. Firedorns harmless joke poem about a man dying was removed from a game I backed, and a genocide advocate pretending outrage was appeased, one should not give in to such people, especially when their complaints are based upon lies.

5. They have given hypocritical, hateful individuals with no morals whom are actual abusers and criminals a podium upon which to lecture good moral people whom have done no wrong.

6. Asking for sex workers to be removed from GTA but absolutely no other victim of any crime to be removed no matter how heinous, thus showing what biased idiots they are to ask for this and nothing else. First we should deal with the real world problem of sex workers and the criminals whom abuse them, some of whom even hypocritically lie that they are interested in social justice issues.

 

Now if you are supporting genocide advocates, championing corruption, objecting to ethical standards for a multi billion dollar industry, lying that a consumer revolt is a hate and harassment movement and spreading hate and lies about your fellow man, then maybe it is time you undertook some introspection of your own.

 

The changes in the gaming industry lately are mostly positive thanks to Gamergate, as I have stated before, more and more sites are creating ethical guidelines for themselves, the hatemongers are being sacked and we have done a good job, but more is needed. An independent ethical ombudsman would be a good start, to enforce ethical behaviour and not allow sites like Kotaku to flout ethics as they have been doing, staff it with those whom have behaved with the consumers interests first and foremost in mind throughout this period and make it truly independent and a powert to challenge developers, publishers and most importantly the corrupt cronyism of journalists.

 

Gamergate and us reasonable moderates are winning this is indisputable but more must still be done.

[Fighter]

 

1. What would you say now if Leigh Alexander said in regards to the original article  " I didn't mean all white, male gamers " ..I only meant " white, male gamers who refuse to accept or believe in transformation". This view is very relevant to the original anger as I see people still raise this as a reason for the general dislike of the SJ narrative. Someone like Nonek still bring this up in his diatribe against SJW and SJF ( an appalling characterization for SJW but I see Nonek still uses it )  and it is  justification for support of GG for many people. So what would you now think if Leigh Alexander said " she didn't mean all white male gamers?

 

How is that radically different? It is once again using race as a centerpiece of the argument. Leigh said a bunch of things but to that specifically, if you want to make it better how about removing skin color out of the equation all together. It's implying that no one else but white men disagree with her idea of transformation.

[Malcador]

So if that's true then you guys need to ask some introspective questions to yourselves that should include a simple point  " what am I really objecting to"  when it comes to opposing the SJ movement ?

Now I am curious, with this "question" as to what answer you are wanting from them ?

 

Points for dismissing things as non-meaningful as, well, you just say so.

[Fighter]

Podcast interview with GMShivers (game developer). It's very pro GG if some here can stomach it. The interesting part is when she talks about (starting at about 6:00) Zoe Quinn and clique trying to sabotage her career and get her blacklisted over sj issues.

 

You can of course disbelieve everything she says but tell me how these people wouldn't be a problem in the industry with their righteous sj policing and political vetting.

 

http://the405media.com/2015/04/15/kate-and-bacon-man-talk-to-gmshivers-on-downloadable-content/

Edited April 20, 2015 by Fighter

[Longknife]

So both KP and Longknife would rather me lobby for censorship than decorum?  

 

This is why it is hard to take this movement seriously.

 

WTF???

 

No, I'm saying forum rules are standard things like "don't harass other users" and the sort. This thread should not - nor should any thread - receive special treatment in that regard. If it is truly breaking the rules, then it should be reported. The same would apply to if there were a kawaii desu ne weeaboo otaku thread and it somehow broke the rules; punishing that thread and locking it would not be censorship, it would be enforcing rules that Obsidian laid out well in advance for all to see.

 

 

  I'm basically saying that if this thread is legitimately breaking rules, then you should report it. If you do not, then you yourself are in absolutely no position to criticize this thread as you're here fanning it's flames.

 

Your quoted response above is nothing more than a hysterical exaggeration of something very basic that I suggested. A polite adherence to Obsidian's rules and the desire to alert them to when said rules are broken within their "own home" is not censorship. By that same logic, if I visit your home and you have a strict no pooping on the carpet rule and KaineParker runs to the kitchen to tell you that I'm currently in the process of taking a dump on your rug, then you would both be pro censorship.

 

Quite frankly, it feels like you're stretching for reasons to call me or "this movement" ridiculous, and quite frankly, if you truly wish to be "holier than thou," then ****ing act like it and just report the thread. The way I see it, if you cannot report it, then it's proof that all this is is just you throwing a fit because "buaaah the forums I visit for 10+ years have a thread I don't agree with, life is so haaaaard~"

[Hurlshort]

Longknife, your post does come across as hysterical. I do not think I need to exaggerate to make it so.

[Malcador]

you throwing a fit because "buaaah the forums I visit for 10+ years have a thread I don't agree with, life is so haaaaard~"

Pretty much it. Good thing you're not anti-police too!

[Hurlshort]

Yes, I'm throwing the fit.  

 

Observing that the forum has changed, and that this thread in particular has become a place for bizarre behavior, is such a tantrum.  I'll make sure to alert the waambulance.

[Meshugger]

Yes, I'm throwing the fit.  

 

Observing that the forum has changed, and that this thread in particular has become a place for bizarre behavior, is such a tantrum.  I'll make sure to alert the waambulance.

 

 

It's alright. It's the fate for all of us.

[Meshugger]

 

You mean when you accused him for being guilty by possible association and when the point was the "gamers do not need diversity" was bonkers you decided that the whole thing was moot since the study he critizised relied on faulty statistics?

 

 

The statistics the study relied on were sloppy, but acceptable for the conclusions it was trying to support. Sociologists have an implicit understanding that the sample sizes used generally give fairly low confidence levels.

 

Applying those statistics as "proof" that "gamers don't need diversity" is a dire statistical error, however. When applied at that scope, the sample size gives a confidence level lower than 50%! It's worse odds than that of a coin toss, and you're not seeing anybody trying to justify their conclusions with "well, it came up heads, so I must be right"! And it's the height of irresponsibility, if not malice, to claim that the study that's simply not applicable outside of its scope due to this issue was "intentionally buried by lying feminists" because "it didn't fit the agenda". If I believed for a moment that Sargon of Akkad knew anything about statistics, I'd have to hold him in absolute contempt for knowingly abusing science to support his crusade against feminism. Thankfully, I know not to attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

 

 

So what? The paper is flawed and Sargon used their very own material against them. You can bold your text and claim contempt as much as you like, but that doesn't change the point. 

 

 

And where you finally said that games really do need diversity without telling how that would be implemented without turning into tyranny?

 

Do you know how to solve world hunger? Or to prevent wars?

 

Are you allowed to see world hunger and wars as problems humanity faces, despite not having a solution for them?

 

What? World hunger and wars cause death. What death does the lack of diverse representation of different minorities in video games cause? Get a better argument that represents the problem in itself.

 

Diversity will come without any cabal of critics deeming what gamers should like anyway with the rise of the middle class in other countries. The Witcher is a good example, slavic folklore and culture in an AAA game, something completely new in the world western shooters and japanese rpgs. Soon we will see Indonesian, Botswanan and Nicaraguan action/adventure games.

 

But they have to be good of course.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Meshugger

[Volourn]

"Longknife, your post does come across as hysterical. I do not think I need to exaggerate to make it so."

 

Pot. kettle. Black.

 

 

"Yes, I'm throwing the fit.  

 

Observing that the forum has changed, and that this thread in particular has become a place for bizarre behavior, is such a tantrum.  I'll make sure to alert the waambulance."

 

L0L