Memorials problem.

[Rafkos]

Oh my, really? What's wrong with this poem? Why do people with different beliefs, views always have such a big problem with everything and always feel harrased. I don't get it, it's just like with feminism. Please do not change this, it doesn't insult anyone, moreover that would be not fair for a backer who wrote this.
Cheers, and don't feel offended with this post lol

[Jaegerbombastic]

It is really easy to say that it shouldn't be removed when you aren't the butt of constant jokes, threats of violence, discrimination in housing, employment, and elsewhere

 

 

 

No, transwomen are women

 

I didn't see what comments got pruned, but who are you talking about? No one is saying "keep the joke in because transwomen aren't really women anyways lol". And, again, the joke isn't directed towards a transwoman; its directed towards what sounds like a oversexed Gaston-type that got tricked and overreacted as a result. Myself and most of the other commentors simply don't want Obsidian to bend over backwards to the perpetually offended. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Jaegerbombastic

[LeslieLightning]

Look at the abuse I've been getting from this community on the steam forums. If anything, this is more evidence that transmisogyny shouldn't be condoned. All of this abuse because I objected to the memorial

 

TW: transphobia, suicide

http://imgur.com/89DaJQv

http://i.imgur.com/jQeDMZx.png

 

 

[halcy]

Not an issue. Only crybabies worry about such small potatoes. if anything the tombstone is making fun of a man who would kill themselves over such a  situation as it paints them as wussies and cowards. Oh noess.. TRIGGERED pro suiciders. Obsidian did NOTHING wrong here.

So if it is such a complete non-issue, why are there a ton of people shouting about how it would be a TRAVESTY and an ATTACK ON FREE SPEECH to remove a dumb vulgar joke that QC should have caught, but didn't, from the game? If it is, to you, a non-issue - and I totally agree that to anybody who doesn't particularly care about being inclusive, it really should be - then why not just go "oh okay, lets remove that then" and be done with it? The torrent of complaints by people who are not, at all, affected by this is baffling.

[IrithylStarym]

I know this is the first time I've posted here. I backed, and own the game. Haven't had much time to play it yet.

 

But today I found out that one of the backers created memorials is a anti-trans "joke".

 

You can see the screenshot here http://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/582161950202863616

 

Text for those who can't see the link.

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran"

 

I understand this was created by a backer. But why was something so horrible included in the final game? Could you have not said no and asked for something less transphobic? I know, it's just a joke. As someone who is trans, who backed this game and who was really looking forward to playing it soon, this really has made me angry.

 

I wasn't sure how to bring this up in a different way. I don't know how people will react to this. But I'm really saddened to see that this game I've been waiting over two years for is being ruined for me by one backer making a stupid "Joke" about trans women being men.

 

 

So basically you don't mind all the killing in the game, people stabbing, cutting, hammering, shooting, other people. You don't mind people insulting and threatening other people, but mind about a bawdy rhyme on a tombstone. Logic.

[Nixl]

 

 

It is really easy to say that it shouldn't be removed when you aren't the butt of constant jokes, threats of violence, discrimination in housing, employment, and elsewhere

 

I'm going to have to call you out on that one - So by your logic nothing is allowed, anywhere? Because I'll bet you that we can find plenty of examples of harmless jokes aimed at any culture, sexual preference and even race in the world. Now and then.

 

Personally I'm not a big fan of kicking people who are already down, particularly when it's a group that has a near 50% lifetime suicide rate.  Ten times the US average.  Stuff like this, the "it's just a joke, stop being so easily offended, man up," it matters because it contributes to that.  It's not harmless because it is a part of the larger societal treatment that is ultimately a major factor in driving people to kill themselves.

 

And with that, I'm bowing out of this discussion because I'm getting too upset myself, now.

 

I hope my posts did not contribute to your exit from this thread.  That being said, one could argue that the US has a violence problem (in general), and has experienced instances of genocide, racism, and lynching.  In PoE, the character Durance states that lynching Eothan followers was a good thing (if I remember correctly).   

Does Durance need to be removed, when he condones such things?

 

I realize that, in your argument, he is an in-universe character, and therefore different.  My issue is how can a joke be worse for society than a pro-lynching character? This just seems like a double standard towards violence. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Nixl

[Tamerlane]

Hey Obsidian do whatever the **** you think is right about this ****ty limerick just like you would have if I had never made this post.

 

Thanks.

[floyd ryan]

 

I have yet to see how this is transphobic. Apparently buzzwords alone are enough to make a case now.

 

Pretty much just allude to anything even remotely to do with trans-anything in any manner other than saying it's awesome/good/fine, and some folks will go out their way to be insulted and accuse others of 'transphobia'. The really bad thing is that we've reached a point in our society where such asinine things are not only given an ear, but rule the day.

 

 

Yes, but in this limerick, the dude kill's himself because he got laid! Think about this! He obviously enjoyed this act sufficiently, otherwise there'd be no "reason" to be ashamed (from his perspective!). Instead of changing his mind, be kills himself. How does this reflect badly on trans and not on intolerant people. Also the extremists' demand "KILL ALL MEN" seem very d'accord with this limerick to me...  

[Tigranes]

Look at the abuse I've been getting from this community on the steam forums. If anything, this is more evidence that transmisogyny shouldn't be condoned. All of this abuse because I objected to the memorial

 

TW: transphobia, suicide

http://imgur.com/89DaJQv

http://i.imgur.com/jQeDMZx.png

 

Steam forums are always a separate community - I can't moderate posts on that forum, for example, nor do I even know who does. (I think Obsidian as developer can make requests, but even they don't control what goes on there, Valve does.) Those comments would obviously not be permitted here is all I can say. 

[grappler51]

I understand that discrimination is a problem for transgendered people, I even have a trans family member. But saying this one line "ruins" the game is ridiculous. It's not even a main element of the story, don't read the tombstones if you don't like it.

I'm below average height and there's no way I'd be put off this game if it made fun of short people. There's just no reason to so sensitive about something this small.

[knallfix]

Oh my ...

 

if i would start a witch hunt on everything that offends me on the internets, i'd be dead before i'm even done with 5%.

[mindswayer]

I just registered to post here.

I pre-ordered Pillars of Eternity (missed the kickstarter) because I have always trusted Obsidian to make excellent RPGs without pandering to anyone in the politics side of things. It is one of the main reasons I have supported this company and why I have stopped caring about BIoWare or their games. Now, this does not mean that I am against gay characters or whatever, it just means that I do not accept people adding something just to pander to some radical group of nutjobs.

I'd be really disappointed to see the tombstone removed because:

1) It's a joke, and it's funny. People need to grow thick skins if they honestly find themselves offended with that. It's just a poem that describes a warrior's actions one night. It's not really discrimination or alienation of anyone. The guy ****ed a woman, turns out it was a dude, felt confused, killed himself. I don't really see the problem with it. There are many ways you can interpret the poem.

2) I would be really disappointed to see Obsidian pander to these people. After all, a backer paid 500$ to have a tombstone there, and he wanted to make a joke.

 

I hope Obsidian don't start going down the dark path of censorship and shoving political views down my throat. I feel like I'd lose my trust in them pretty quickly.

Edited March 29, 2015 by mindswayer

[AlyxDinas]

Please, elaborate on your complaint. I want to know exactly why you think this is transphobic. As far as I can tell it makes the straight guy look like a ridiculous drama queen, not insulting the transvestite or transgendered person - it looks like a more pro-trans sentiment than an anti-trans sentiment to me.

 

Also, as someone who knows transvestites and transgenders and knows that these are by far not the same and in fact would find being compared incredibly insulting, not even attempting to differentiate the two in your complaint to me seems heterosexist and transphobic by itself, which is an irony of sorts.

 

I can jump in and explain to the best of my ability. The main reason is because the implication is the man was so disgusted or shamed that he slept with someone he thought was a biological female that he killed himself. That he found them so repulsive once he knew they were not who he thought, that he would rather die than live. That's pretty harsh and in real life, when these things happen, people actually do die. Namely the transperson who is the victim of a murder. It happens and more than you'd think. Some people know friends who were murdered due to this very issue.

 

Imagine, for a moment, that the "joke" was about race. A man somehow doesn't realize that the person he was sleeping with was of dark skin so he kills himself when he finds out.  It would never really get in the game, I'd imagine. And while race and gender are not the same thing, the implications here are enough that Obsidian isn't capitulating by reconsidering the content. It doesn't even matter if a backer put the content in there. If you're working on a project (and I say this as someone who has worked on big projects with Kickstarter backer content to put in game) and you have hundreds of things to input and it's you and one other person or whatever, you might miss a few things because you have a lead or a producer who is saying "We gotta get the backer data in by the next build!". Just because it got in doesn't mean it got in because it was approved necessarily.

 

So, let's review: we have a scenario in the game that isn't necessarily about offense but is also about respectfully approaching a real problem within society and we have no indication that the content was given a stamp of approval outside of whoever's job it was to proof and do the data entry. The content itself has vulgar implications that do the studio a disservice and do a disservice to many customers. There's nothing "pro" about it. That's, I would suggest, a deliberately dishonest read of the content. 

[Manlington]

Look at the abuse I've been getting from this community on the steam forums. If anything, this is more evidence that transmisogyny shouldn't be condoned. All of this abuse because I objected to the memorial

 

TW: transphobia, suicide

http://imgur.com/89DaJQv

http://i.imgur.com/jQeDMZx.png

 

Three cherrypicked comments don't represent "the community."

[Valsuelm]

 

 

I have yet to see how this is transphobic. Apparently buzzwords alone are enough to make a case now.

 

Pretty much just allude to anything even remotely to do with trans-anything in any manner other than saying it's awesome/good/fine, and some folks will go out their way to be insulted and accuse others of 'transphobia'. The really bad thing is that we've reached a point in our society where such asinine things are not only given an ear, but rule the day.

 

 

Yes, but in this limerick, the dude kill's himself because he got laid! Think about this! He obviously enjoyed this act sufficiently, otherwise there'd be no "reason" to be ashamed (from his perspective!). Instead of changing his mind, be kills himself. How does this reflect badly on trans and not on intolerant people. Also the extremists' demand "KILL ALL MEN" seem very d'accord with this limerick to me...  

 

 

See... here's a big thing. I never would have assumed that the limerick says the guy got laid. Nor would I even have ever assumed that the 'woman who turned out to be a man' was a transanything. Frankly, I wouldn't have put a ton of thought into it as it's pretty ambiguous and there are a number of possibilities. As others have mentioned, it could have been a drunk guy who mistook the identify of someone, it could be a not so smart guy who fell in love with what he thought was a girl (those are my first thoughts), the hero could refer to hum being good in bed, or just an adventuring hero, and so on. The possible interpretations are potentially endless.

 

At no point does it definitively say anyone had sex, is/was a transanything, or that anyone enjoyed anything. One has to make assumptions and take words to mean things they don't to say so.

 

 

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran"

[frobisher]

The hell?

 

When was it even established that epitaph in question was "transphobic" (or whateverphobic, given how idiotic language bending has become in this "controversy") in the first place? Some despicable fool "tweeting about it" is nowhere near "confirmation", I kinda hoped Obsidian hadn't lowered their standards so dramatically.

 

Someone has slept with "a woman who turned out to be a man"? Could've been anything. He drank so much he didn't even notice. Or he got tricked by his male admirer with a disputable concept of consent. Or both. Or magic. Or aliens. Like... there's zero material that actually supports anything closer to "and that was a person who identified as a female". Given how Professionally Outraged operate, skipping this step is like extending additional invitation to be bullied by silently acknowledging they actually have a point.

 

Then there's the function this tiny piece has, both in-game and in-universe. I consider the entire concept of having monuments with backer material a necessary evil, a tiny one at that - but there's like... 90% of them that are more out of place. This one is actually pretty good, especially given how weak competition is, but not only because of that. We actually get a crude example of humor, the kind that was popular for millennia (and, no matter how "sophisticated" we get, still is). Even bloody Greeks were having their high-brow tragedies AND comedies filled with the lowest kind of humor imagineable. This is the sort of song you would expect to hear in some tavern, because: A. it's simple and silly B. it has sex in it. Putting silly things on tombstones is another thing that has been going on for ages, though obviously not too often - still, it's not merely a "classic RPG joke". Now, I won't pretend to know PoE world isn't some post-gender universe where entire society is sanitized and conditioned against such suggestive themes, but nothing in this game has been hinting towards it...

 

 

So, seriously, Obsidian, try to remember you have a valid way out. The kind that is also one of those benefits of having no publisher, associated PR minions and spineless suits around. You know, thanks to having backers and such *hint* *nudge*. I don't expect you to say what this kind of parasites actually deserves to hear again and again until they realise they have no claim over any content creator. But for crying out loud, don't negotiate with them and don't leave any impression there's any credence to this bull****. Oh, wait...

[Sakai]

So if it is such a complete non-issue, why are there a ton of people shouting about how it would be a TRAVESTY and an ATTACK ON FREE SPEECH to remove a dumb vulgar joke that QC should have caught, but didn't, from the game? If it is, to you, a non-issue - and I totally agree that to anybody who doesn't particularly care about being inclusive, it really should be - then why not just go "oh okay, lets remove that then" and be done with it? The torrent of complaints by people who are not, at all, affected by this is baffling.

 

Censorship affects everyone. It might start small. Yes it's only a little joke, so why not just remove it, right? But before long, you'll have thousands of people shouting to remove half your game because there's something in it that they found "offensive". And who exactly decides that it's "dumb and vulgar"? You? Well what if someone disagrees, what if someone doesn't find anything wrong at all in that joke? Or even worse, finds it funny.

[deuxhero]

 

 

It is really easy to say that it shouldn't be removed when you aren't the butt of constant jokes, threats of violence, discrimination in housing, employment, and elsewhere

 

I'm going to have to call you out on that one - So by your logic nothing is allowed, anywhere? Because I'll bet you that we can find plenty of examples of harmless jokes aimed at any culture, sexual preference and even race in the world. Now and then.

 

Personally I'm not a big fan of kicking people who are already down, particularly when it's a group that has a near 50% lifetime suicide rate.  Ten times the US average.  Stuff like this, the "it's just a joke, stop being so easily offended, man up," it matters because it contributes to that.  It's not harmless because it is a part of the larger societal treatment that is ultimately a major factor in driving people to kill themselves.

 

And with that, I'm bowing out of this discussion because I'm getting too upset myself, now.

 

You just said 5% of Americans commit suicide in their life times.

 

NA anual's rate is about 10-13 (depending on year) per 100,000 according to the AFSP and CDC. Even if we multiply that by 100 (and most people don't live that long) that's still not even 1%

 

Why should anything you say be taken seriously after that?

[Jaegerbombastic]

Look at the abuse I've been getting from this community on the steam forums. If anything, this is more evidence that transmisogyny shouldn't be condoned. All of this abuse because I objected to the memorial

 

TW: transphobia, suicide

http://imgur.com/89DaJQv

http://i.imgur.com/jQeDMZx.png

Well that's really ****ty thing to go through, but that's not this forum. Its Steam, which has a much higher chance of trolls showing up to do what trolls do best. The mods are doing a good job pruning away anything like that in this thread, leaving people that are disagreeing with you in a civil manner. Don't equate everyone that disagrees with you on this subject as sharing the exact same values of some ****posters. 

[Flashburn]

Absolutely ridiculous.  In a world full of violence, racism, and general bigotry, you choose to get offended by this?  Unbelievable.

 

SJWs are not your audience, so why pander to them?  Getting offended by something does not grant you any rights at all, much less to browbeat a studio into removing the offending thing in question (e.g. Lionhead Studios, yesterday).  Normal people are able to brush off things like this and not let it ruin their day.

 

If Obsidian chooses to remove this memorial, they will be cheating a backer out the reward that they paid for and whatever claims of celebrating their creative freedoms and vision will be thrown out the window.  This is just plain bullying, "transmisogyny" or not.  I hope Obsidian stands by what they've made.

 

And riddle me this:  if videogames are art, and art is allowed to be offensive, why are videogames not allowed to be offensive?

[Darji]

 

Not an issue. Only crybabies worry about such small potatoes. if anything the tombstone is making fun of a man who would kill themselves over such a  situation as it paints them as wussies and cowards. Oh noess.. TRIGGERED pro suiciders. Obsidian did NOTHING wrong here.

So if it is such a complete non-issue, why are there a ton of people shouting about how it would be a TRAVESTY and an ATTACK ON FREE SPEECH to remove a dumb vulgar joke that QC should have caught, but didn't, from the game? If it is, to you, a non-issue - and I totally agree that to anybody who doesn't particularly care about being inclusive, it really should be - then why not just go "oh okay, lets remove that then" and be done with it? The torrent of complaints by people who are not, at all, affected by this is baffling.

 

Really? That is your answer? It is about Censorship and its a far higher issue than some stupid joke some people may or may not find offensive. It is not about being offended you always should have the right to be offended by  something. It is about the issue of calling for censorship because you personally or a very small minority is offended by it. 

 

How can people be so insensitive these days. You dont need to be protect by everything you may or may not find scary and especially you should NEVER EVER try to force your morals or standards on other people.  

 

Again: Patch in the option to disable these messages but anything else is Censorship and should not be tolerated by any means. 

[ruzen]

Sometimes I wonder If people wants to be offended. How can a person finds that one tiny little joke and make It so big that frustrates everyone. Not to mention this is Internet so what the all this fuss is about? There is a man thinks he is ashamed by sleeping with a men and run off to cliff, so what? Seriously so what? Is there suppose to be only one "Internet" culture that everyone has to be live by? Not to mention there is no insult or comment about anything at all Its a silly little thing. Pointless or (another) troll post.

 

I'm really enjoying this game but for the pass few days forum (after the game release) have turned into garbage.

[deuxhero]

Look at the abuse I've been getting from this community on the steam forums. If anything, this is more evidence that transmisogyny shouldn't be condoned. All of this abuse because I objected to the memorial

 

TW: transphobia, suicide

http://imgur.com/89DaJQv

http://i.imgur.com/jQeDMZx.png

 

I love how you highlighted Wishfire's comment.

 

The comment literally says words to the effect of "you shouldn't descriminated against, but don't expect everyone to bend over for you". If such a reasonable position is what "transphobia" is, why would Obsidian need to remove anything to avoid it?

Edited March 29, 2015 by deuxhero

[Blarghagh]

 

Please, elaborate on your complaint. I want to know exactly why you think this is transphobic. As far as I can tell it makes the straight guy look like a ridiculous drama queen, not insulting the transvestite or transgendered person - it looks like a more pro-trans sentiment than an anti-trans sentiment to me.

 

Also, as someone who knows transvestites and transgenders and knows that these are by far not the same and in fact would find being compared incredibly insulting, not even attempting to differentiate the two in your complaint to me seems heterosexist and transphobic by itself, which is an irony of sorts.

 

I can jump in and explain to the best of my ability. The main reason is because the implication is the man was so disgusted or shamed that he slept with someone he thought was a biological female that he killed himself. That he found them so repulsive once he knew they were not who he thought, that he would rather die than live. That's pretty harsh and in real life, when these things happen, people actually do die. Namely the transperson who is the victim of a murder. It happens and more than you'd think. Some people know friends who were murdered due to this very issue.

 

Imagine, for a moment, that the "joke" was about race. A man somehow doesn't realize that the person he was sleeping with was of dark skin so he kills himself when he finds out.  It would never really get in the game, I'd imagine. And while race and gender are not the same thing, the implications here are enough that Obsidian isn't capitulating by reconsidering the content. It doesn't even matter if a backer put the content in there. If you're working on a project (and I say this as someone who has worked on big projects with Kickstarter backer content to put in game) and you have hundreds of things to input and it's you and one other person or whatever, you might miss a few things because you have a lead or a producer who is saying "We gotta get the backer data in by the next build!". Just because it got in doesn't mean it got in because it was approved necessarily.

 

So, let's review: we have a scenario in the game that isn't necessarily about offense but is also about respectfully approaching a real problem within society and we have no indication that the content was given a stamp of approval outside of whoever's job it was to proof and do the data entry. The content itself has vulgar implications that do the studio a disservice and do a disservice to many customers. There's nothing "pro" about it. That's, I would suggest, a deliberately dishonest read of the content. 

 

 

I am aware of the danger that transgendered people are in, but I feel the limerick makes the transphobic subject of the limerick look like an idiot and a drama queen, and rightfully so. It reflects existing transphobic attitudes... and then mercilessly ridicules that attitude. Nowhere does the limerick imply it is horrifying, simply that the character is an unreasonable idiot for being horrified. Having a transphobic character doesn't make the limerick transphobic. At worst, it could be accused of as "triggering" for transgendered people who live through those real life issues - that may be considered in poor taste, but in no way can anyone with an open mind consider it to be offensive. I, personally, feel your read of the content is what you suggest mine is - deliberately dishonest, trying to create controversy. I can understand that people try to be more sensitive about transgendered issues but that doesn't mean adressing those issues in this manner is transphobic. Insensitive behaviour and discrimination are not the same.

Edited March 29, 2015 by TrueNeutral

[Sakai]

Insensitive behaviour and discrimination are not the same.

That's actually a very good point.