Memorials problem.

[Longknife]

BTW am I the only one that finds it hilarious that the backer who wrote that little poem eulogy is probably reading this thread quietly trying to decide if he wants to be known or not, seeing as how he's both somewhat infamous around the internet with the social justice crowd but without a doubt -THE- most famous and legendary Chanter of all time in Pillars of Eternity history?

[AnsFenrisulfr]

 

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

 

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence that this thread is going to end any time soon.

 

But I can continue to try to get people to look at this critically.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

BTW am I the only one that finds it hilarious that the backer who wrote that little poem eulogy is probably reading this thread quietly trying to decide if he wants to be known or not, seeing as how he's both somewhat infamous around the internet with the social justice crowd but without a doubt -THE- most famous and legendary Chanter of all time in Pillars of Eternity history?

I really, really hope he remains anonymous. No one deserves the death threats, harassment, and attacks he will receive from the SJW crowd.

[Scars Unseen]

 

 

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

 

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence that this thread is going to end any time soon.

 

But I can continue to try to get people to look at this critically.

 

 

Should I wish you luck or offer my apologies to the wall on behalf of your head?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Scars Unseen

[AnsFenrisulfr]

 

 

 

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

 

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence that this thread is going to end any time soon.

 

But I can continue to try to get people to look at this critically.

 

 

Should I wish you luck or offer my apologies to the wall on behalf of your head?

 

I debate creationists and evangelicals. This is a picnic compared.

[DrTuring]

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Yikes. Sorta sucks that it's still in for you, huh?

 

But yeah, if Oblivion looks at the majority of their audience, or even just in this thread, they would know that removing it would be a bad idea.

 

And yeah, it's censorship when you force a development team to take out content even though most people are fine with it.

[regomar]

I'm a backer as well, making my first post here.  I am also a bisexual male with a transgendered girlfriend.

 

PLEASE do NOT censor this game because a horrible misandrist known for tweeting #killallmen starts a twitter campaign against you.  

 

Don't buckle to this bullying Obsidian!  I am utterly sick of people looking to be offended and gleefully trying to destroy everything that even remotely doesn't fit in with their world view.  I'm MORE sick of developers and reviewers bending over for these sociopaths.

 

The VAST majority of these 'offended' people are not your backers and they are not your customers.  they are bandwagon jumpers looking to be outraged.  Take ten minutes to browse your forums and you'll see that the most of your fans do not want you to cater to these people.  The game is brilliant and fine just the way it is!

[Volourn]

"I really, really hope he remains anonymous. No one deserves the death threats, harassment, and attacks he will receive from the SJW crowd."

 

If it were me, I wouldn't mind being known. The SJWs have already murdered me so...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

It relates back to the idea/concept of systemic/institutionalized discrimination.  I don't feel misandry is really a thing because while any individual can be a jerk towards a man for being a man, I don't really face wide spread challenges based on being a man. That's not to say there aren't issues that apply to men, but just that those that I do find tend to come from other men (and the supposed accepted ways that a man should behave and the shame for having particular events happen to you, for example).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misandry

 

Definition of MISANDRY

 

: a hatred of men

Merriam-Webster would disagree with you. Just like Misogyny is hatred of women, not a collection of widespread challenges based on sex.

 

Furthermore, are you over 30? I'm asking because most data I've seen suggests that with people under 30(in the west), women tend to make more for the same jobs and attend higher education at higher rates than males and if your answer is yes, that may color your personal perception of little challenged being a man.

 

While I wouldn't blame hatred of men, I would say there is a certain bias against men when applying to university or to certain positions. In my personal experience, women are preferred for admission into university and for office jobs over men. Not a widespread bias where men are never hired, but if qualifications are relatively equal the woman is more likely to be the one selected.

[deuxhero]

 

 

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

I don't think this is as much of a PR problem as it seems to us who closely follow the game. Also, I don't think removing this takes any technical effort on Obsidian's part. So I wouldn't be concerned it is affecting bug fixing at all.

 

 

According to the stickied tech support thread on the ProjectEternity subreddit:

 

 

If they can't alter strings, it may not be as easy at it seems it should be to remove the poem.

 

 

Even if they didn't have this problem, the game isn't English only. Nothing is a one line change=done when you are the master version for 6 other languages.

[Nosmirc]

Another for the "don't remove it" camp. It's pretty simple. Those objecting to this are a very small minority. They can be very loud because of Twitter, but that's all they are, loud.

 

One of the big perks of kickstarter is not being beholden to a publisher, and being free to put whatever you want into your game. So Obsidians actions at this point are significant.

 

They remove it, they demostrated that these noisy individuals have sway over them. They'll start to demand more and more and more. They'll find something else to be offended about, I assure you of this. It will never end, they will never be appeased. So don't even try. This is content they can easiy avoid. Just don't look at the backer quotes. They have nothing to do with the game. Hell, there's that 3rd party patch that's floating around that removes it if it bothers you so much. The concept of that patch is pretty stupid however.

 

We've seen some of the people being 'outraged' by this. Ian Miles Cheong is not someone anyone should pay heed to. He's a lunatic. His whole nazi past is a thing of internet legend. We see people who are full on misandrists, yet still cry foul over misogyny. Like I said, these are NOT people who can be appeased.

 

Sawyer, if by some twist of fate you read this, bear this in mind. This isn't a thing you can win. They'll just keep demanding more and more of you until you're a wreck. Just reject them. If they're that annoying on Twitter, block 'em. You'd hardly be the first developer out there to block idiots on Twitter.

[Darji]

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

There is no discussion. People organize with mob tactics to get something removed they do not like. This is exactly censorship.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Darji

[Darkpriest]

So wait. If we change this that he was so stoned he thought he get laid with a beauty and when he woke up it was some ugly fat woman it would be ok? I mean it is a ****ing joke. Get over it.

[Jaegerbombastic]

Well considering we're talking about a CRPG, let's put this to a multiple choice question!

http://strawpoll.me/3996109

 

The options available are as follows:

1. Keep the epitaph. Period

2. Patch in the option to turn on and off backer content like the epitaphs.

3. Drop the epitaph, but compensate the backer with a refund or letting him/her write a replacement epitaph.
4. Drop the epitaph. Period.

 

And before anyone asks: No, this isn't supposed to be a definitive, scientific poll. Its just a little way to gauge how everyone feels about the topic.

[Volourn]

Uh... You'd be fatphobic then... Remember, in 2015, it's okay to hate skinny women but don't hate overweight people. Not cool.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Volourn

[Darji]

So wait. If we change this that he was so stoned he thought he get laid with a beauty and when he woke up it was some ugly fat woman it would be ok? I mean it is a ****ing joke. Get over it.

Not for these people

 

1. Fat shaming

2. Sexist

3 Why is ugly? Are you shaming ugly people?

4. Why was it not a minority? Have you even included minorities in your game?

Edited March 30, 2015 by Darji

[Klaw117]

I'm going to point out something that I didn't mention in my last post.

 

If Obsidian censors the backer content, it'll lose a lot of business for doing so. People are already threatening boycotts and refund requests. Plus, Obsidian will be violating its promise regarding backer content. Far fewer people will kickstart Obsidian's games if Obsidian won't give backers the content it promised them. Going back on a Kickstarter promise sets a horrible precedent for the developer and the industry as a whole. I'm willing to bet that the amount of people willing to boycott the game or demand a refund is FAR greater than the amount people claiming they won't buy the game because they're "offended," even if the people threatening these things amount to a few percentage points of all gamers already playing this game.

 

I certainly won't be buying this game if Obsidian caves to these extremists.

 

Obsidian, these extremists are not your customers. They are only trying to push their puritan beliefs on the rest of us who want nothing to do with them. They probably never even cared about your game until they found something to be outraged about.

[Volourn]

"3 Why is ugly? Are you shaming ugly people?"

 

TRIGGER WARNING!!!

[Fenrir007]

 

How about we focus on something productive, as in a solution to this whole thing? One that will please everyone?

 

1- Raise awareness through the means of a sticky here and on the steam forums about the user-made mod that removes the offending content. That way, people can tailor their own, private experience without interfering with the game of other people;

 

2- Put in a toggle to remove all backer content for those that wish for a more official means of removing it. This has the added bonus of allowing everyone who doesn't want backer content in their game to have their way.

 

Do both and I'm sure no one will have anything else to complain about. Right?

 

Any objections to this?

 

 

There is zero point in caving in to the demands of crazy people (#killallmen).

 

It only encourages them to continue their unhealthy lifestyles rather than seeking professional help for their deep seated issues.

 

 

Believe me, I am in no way wanting to cave in to crazy people.

 

However, the backer toggle HAS been requested before, and this would be a good way of not only solving the issue, but giving what others have been asking for already.

 

Besides, at least my main issue here is to protect the game content from being unilaterally changed to suit a loud minority who may not even be the target demographic of this game (as seen on this forum, where most backers are against the change). I am, however, entirely in favor of the player having toggles to butcher game content at his own leisure to suit his non-standard sensibilities.

 

In my case, I would love to remove all backer content, as the quality in general is pretty low (the poem in question, however, is an exception, as it is pretty funny and makes sense in the context of the game). I have seen similar requests even before this controversy.

[McFeeb]

Believe me, I am in no way wanting to cave in to crazy people.

 

However, the backer toggle HAS been requested before, and this would be a good way of not only solving the issue, but giving what others have been asking for already.

 

Besides, at least my main issue here is to protect the game content from being unilaterally changed to suit a loud minority who may not even be the target demographic of this game (as seen on this forum, where most backers are against the change). I am, however, entirely in favor of the player having toggles to butcher game content at his own leisure to suit his non-standard sensibilities.

 

In my case, I would love to remove all backer content, as the quality in general is pretty low (the poem in question, however, is an exception, as it is pretty funny and makes sense in the context of the game). I have seen similar requests even before this controversy.

 

 

 

You could always just not click on it.

 

It has its own icon and everything.

[Mashiki]

 

I understand your view but calling people who want the poem removed "terrorists" just seems like that's stretching it a bit.

 

 

Well, let's be honest shall we?  These people aren't the audience, they most likely don't own the game, they didn't back the game.  They're throwing a hissyfit because someone told them to in most cases.  They're perpetually offended, they then go out of their way to threaten, attack, and try to drown out the opinions, thoughts, feelings, and stances on it under the guise of various 'isms' while attempting to claim the moral high ground.  Of course when you look at what they actually say, you see that they're ideologically bankrupt, believe that there are no bad targets, and have zero problems pushing their ideology onto someone else while claiming to be "open, inclusive," and all that. 

 

In short, you could call them intellectual terrorists.  Or if that rankles you too much, simply use bigots and be done with it.  Myself?  I'm tired of them trying to insert their perpetually offended ideology into the things I enjoy.  It of course gets worse when you start getting into issues relating to sexuality, and then you see them for the neo-puritans that they are. Then you quickly realize that the previous actions are all linked back to that puritanism.

[Hellraiser789]

 

 

Believe me, I am in no way wanting to cave in to crazy people.

 

However, the backer toggle HAS been requested before, and this would be a good way of not only solving the issue, but giving what others have been asking for already.

 

Besides, at least my main issue here is to protect the game content from being unilaterally changed to suit a loud minority who may not even be the target demographic of this game (as seen on this forum, where most backers are against the change). I am, however, entirely in favor of the player having toggles to butcher game content at his own leisure to suit his non-standard sensibilities.

 

In my case, I would love to remove all backer content, as the quality in general is pretty low (the poem in question, however, is an exception, as it is pretty funny and makes sense in the context of the game). I have seen similar requests even before this controversy.

 

 

 

You could always just not click on it.

 

It has its own icon and everything.

 

 

I mean you gotta give them something - meet halfway and call it done. Obviously it offends some people so whats the harm in making it optional? To absolutely refuse any kind of compromise is just stubborn IMO. As much as I agree its a non issues, others think it is, so IF something is going to change, it should just be made optional. There - problem solved, everyone should be happy.

 

But by no means - do NOT remove it. Worst thing that could be done at this point. It would just further encourage radicals and anger people who dont like censorship (or what they interpret as censorship) and offend the backers who donated so much money to the project (and were the actual target audience in the first place....) Compromise is good, and perhaps necessary for Obsidian to get themselves out of a bad situation.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Dexter111]

I'll just add my vote that I will lose a lot of respect for them if they give in to the "offended" brigade.

 

This shouldn't even be a consideration. They just released a game with fetus nazi zombies in it giving the player the ability to perform abortions and even PoE has allusions and plot elements regarding genocide, rape, prejudice, matricide etc.

 

**** these people and everything they stand for. Being "offended" over something doesn't mean anything and doesn't give them any rights to change the content for everyone else or override the original Backers wishes.

[Ecto]

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

 

No, but as I understand, they've stated that they're planning to? Obviously, if this is not the case, then my original message is no longer applicable.

 

I'm not really sure how I could provide you with "evidence" that it was transphobic. You've seem it the same as I. If you want, I can provide you with my reasoning. First of all, I don't think that the poem was necessarily intended to be transphobic. I can't really speak to the author's intent. However, I do find that the most obvious interpretation of it would be transphobic, and that's why I applaud Obsidian taking it out of the game (assuming that's what they're planning on doing).

 

The pertinent lines of the poem are these two:

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran

 

If we read it at face value - he had sex with a cis man who he thought was a woman, then it doesn't make much sense. Why didn't he notice the genitals differing from what he would expect? I mean it's not impossible or anything, but it seems like the author might have elaborated with some sort of explanation if this was the case.

 

The other, transphobic, interpretation though, is fairly straightforward. Firedorn had sex with a trans woman, realized it after the fact and ran off a cliff in shame because he considers trans women to be men (and having sex with men is suicide-level horrible, apparently). The reason that this interpretation seems more likely to me, is that it doesn't seem like it requires elaboration to make sense, and that the situation of having sex with a trans woman unknowingly is a fairly common trope. Disclosure - the idea that trans women have an obligation or at least really ought to inform all their sexual partners that they are trans is a common topic in the public discourse. Hell, there's even a Trans Panic Defense occasionally used by people who commit violence against trans people.

 

In this cultural context, the transphobic interpretation of the poem seems to me the more likely, and that's why I favour removing it from the game. Especially because I don't see it as in any way integral to the developer vision, so I don't see this stifling Obsidian's creativity in any way worth mentioning.

[kirottu]

To me it is joke at straight mans expense. He slept with a man and totally overreacted. Overreaction is a really old method in jokes, like thousands of years old method. Also, I'm sure this joke has been around before Pillars of Eternity and will still be around whatever Obsidian chooses to do.

 

Don't change it please.