Your RPG system sucks!

[Bryy]

This game needs another 90-120 days of fine-tuning IMO.

... this is.... a very specific number.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

Pillars of Eternity's rules and mechanics are just an arbitrary game, more like Clue or Monopoly (albeit way more complicated). Why does Might determine both your physical strength and the power of your spells and the effectiveness of your healing? Who knows.

 

Soul power iirc.

 

Hey, sure, why not.

[Katarack21]

Nobody in their right mind has every though 2nd Ed AD&D was "intuitive". "Intuitive" was never really their goal. It was stats, charts, and numbers heavy because it was trying to be ultra-realistic, in that virtually everything was directly measurable. It was never quite as bad as GURPS, but it was pretty bad.

[soedenone]

Well, I can't say much about most of the points since I did not find them so irksome but I have to say, I have to agree on the spell bit.

 

I am playing on Normal and chose a wizard as a class. I have the autopause when combat starts option active but it can only do so much. It pretty much gives me enough time to cast a Shield (forgot what the actual name of the 1st level spell is) on myself and that is about it. The spells are slow so before I can even cast anything AOE, the NPCs already rearrange themselves to get well out of range, which, unless I am dealing with ranged enemies such as archers, wastes a perfectly good first or second level spell which exhausts before rest. You can't even properly organize choke points because the starting levels terrain offer mostly wide spaces.

I admit to not having played BG games, but i enjoyed a lot the DA:O system (yes, I know, different dev team) and I madefull use of the pause feature there (I am a sucker for micro-managing my party).

 

I also don't much understand the limitation of spells with regards to rests. I am forever grateful for that one spell or whatever that is which allows me 2 uses per encounter. The rests I needed to make were not so much related to injuries as much as having to restore my spell slots.

 

Anyway, I guess I will have to get used to the system and I hope I will get more spell slots as I evolve.

If you learn to position yourself around it, the level one fire spell is just about one of the strongest in the game - at least from what I've experienced so far, including on the lower levels.

The fact that your allies are not harmed in the extended AoE (Overseeing and high INT) make the cone of fire ridiculously good, I think.

 

That one spell pretty much carried my first several hours of combat, haha

 

 

Pillars of Eternity's rules and mechanics are just an arbitrary game, more like Clue or Monopoly (albeit way more complicated). Why does Might determine both your physical strength and the power of your spells and the effectiveness of your healing? Who knows.

 

 

That one made me laugh during play aswell, how my squishy-as-hell wizard is suddenly performing great feats of physical strength in dialogue! One of the charms of the game, I think.

Edited March 29, 2015 by soedenone

[Skor]

I think the biggest difference between D&D (besides 4th Edition, anyway) and the mechanical system in PoE is that the former, however clunky, is designed to provide a bundle of numbers and rules on what to do with them which simulate your character and the things they do. It answers questions like "Are you stronger than Joe Orc?" or "Do you know enough about Knowledge(whatever) to answer some question?" The stats and whatnot are (theoretically) designed to be intuitive. If you pretend THAC0 is intuitive, anyway.

 

Pillars of Eternity's rules and mechanics are just an arbitrary game, more like Clue or Monopoly (albeit way more complicated). Why does Might determine both your physical strength and the power of your spells and the effectiveness of your healing? Who knows. Maybe it's the same reason that the distance you move per turn in the mansion in Clue is random. Why is it that two guys swinging away at each other can only attack every couple of seconds when, depending on their relative speeds, one character fleeing from another can potentially be subjected to near-infinite attacks in the course of a few frames? Why is it that being strong-willed and charismatic (Resolve) helps you dodge bullets but being physically fast and coordinated (Dexterity) doesn't? Why is it that casting Slicken on an ooze makes it trip and fall prone?

 

PoE is weird and jarring to me, maybe because I was expecting something more along the lines of any of the other RPGs the folks at Obsidian have ever made. In PoE one half of the game is roleplaying and one half is story and never the twain shall meet. Now, much like in Planescape: Torment, your stats inform the options you have available to you in roleplaying scenes. Unlike PS:T, none of your stats are actually designed to model a person, they are arbitrary video game notions that have no basis in reality. So I'm roleplaying a wood elven Cipher right now (or I was until the Horn of Moderation bug borked my game, leaving me the free time to write this post), a scientist who studied and dissected souls until their strange obsession forced them to flee their homeland and travel to the Dyrwood, where they got mixed up in plot. My character uses a bow because that's what they grew up with and they slice their enemies' minds apart because hey, might as well put all that study to good use, right?  ...

 

You laid out in detail my biggest issue with this game.  It just fails basic rpg design and common sense.  It is very un-intuitive.  But yeah, I still love the game.  And like you, if it were not for the double click to equip bye bye racial/class passive abilities, I'd be in game playing instead of typing this.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

Nobody in their right mind has every though 2nd Ed AD&D was "intuitive". "Intuitive" was never really their goal. It was stats, charts, and numbers heavy because it was trying to be ultra-realistic, in that virtually everything was directly measurable. It was never quite as bad as GURPS, but it was pretty bad.

 

I agree 100%, and I also make no pretense to being in my right mind. Still, Strength = how strong your character is makes a lot more sense to me than Might = how strong your character is and all forms of damage and healing and also "soul power" I guess?.

 

And you know, GURPS uses the d%, just like Pillars of Eternity.

[dorkboy]

Didn't one of the devs say (some time ago) that they were hoping to do something about the party-wide sneaking, either in a patch or in the expansion? Can't quite recall which thread that was in.. 

 

Edit: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70311-new-engine/page-3?do=findComment&comment=1566279

Edited March 29, 2015 by dorkboy

[Skor]

 

Nobody in their right mind has every though 2nd Ed AD&D was "intuitive". "Intuitive" was never really their goal. It was stats, charts, and numbers heavy because it was trying to be ultra-realistic, in that virtually everything was directly measurable. It was never quite as bad as GURPS, but it was pretty bad.

 

I agree 100%, and I also make no pretense to being in my right mind. Still, Strength = how strong your character is makes a lot more sense to me than Might = how strong your character is and all forms of damage and healing and also "soul power" I guess?.

 

And you know, GURPS uses the d%, just like Pillars of Eternity.

 

 

And don't forget how all barbarians are mensa brainiacs.  LOL.  Most characters focus on str and int.

[Lohi]

 

Strength = how strong your character is makes a lot more sense to me than Might = how strong your character is and all forms of damage and healing and also "soul power" I guess?.

 

Might includes force of will, which is not the same as willpower before someone says that's what Will is for.  Ie, in D&D terms, the Rod of Lordly Might isn't about strength. Might isn't strength, and of course strength should not really correspond to damage either except indirectly, yet many RPGs seem to make it the same.  Everything gets greatly oversimplified, and this games oversimplifies it differently than that other game, which is all fine and good unless someone thinks there is only one way to do things.

 

The nit is not that might shouldn't equal strength, but that some skill checks treat it the same as strength.

[plethoraoflies]

Perhaps this has been mentioned in the entirety of these pages of replies, but...

First of all, no, there is certainly not a propensity of one class to be exactly what you expect it to be, I think you might have imposed that on yourself - as have I, when I first played it back in the beta stage. I've waited for the release and since then I can't stop playing it. I'm only 20 hours in, and with each moment that I play, it occurs to me that it's exactly the opposite. The game offers immense variety in customizing your characters/classes. What I'm trying to say is, no, there are no archetypes - only to a certain degree. Of course you probably won't have a wizard charging into battle in their underpants against three ogres wielding a two-hander or something like that. Obviously, you're gonna have some characters designed to hold the front line, others flinging spells or what have you from the back. But oh man, there is a lot of diversity in how those things could be achieved. Off the top of my head (different tactics that I've applied according to situation) - 1) have someone place a trap in a chokepoint then lure the enemies into said trap, only to have them barraged by spells or arrows; 2) always handy to have at least one character with a long-reaching weapon like a pike (I particularly like to do this with a priest, since he will remain in the middle of the formation and his buffs will affect everyone); 3) wizards can wield crossbows too, you know. or any class, for that matter. no need to waste precious spells on every pack of weaklings. 4) again with the weapon sets: there's a reason why your Cyclopedia updates itself when you kill a certain number of one specific enemy - you learn the weaknesses, and therefore can prepare accordingly - throughout your entire party, you could have Piercing/Slashing/Crushing damage ready to be delivered in the right direction... and so on... I'm certain there's a lot more.

Seriously, as much as I adore the old IE games (therefore, the D&D ruleset), it's so refreshing to see a NEW cRPG system so well-made and implemented - and I'm certain I've only grazed the tip of it. I'm only now getting the hang of it all... it's all about how much patience you have to let go of your presumptions of what X class should be. And if you truly want it to be the way you imagine it, there's nothing stopping you... by all means, hire adventurers at the inn and make them all impossibly tanky and fill your party with them. What's stopping you?

 

As for the spells... I dunno what to say, perhaps you're not using them right. Since you didn't really offer any examples or anything of the sort, I can only say that from my experience I'm a hell of a lot happier ever since I got a certain priest in my party, who keeps the rest up and fighting through the toughest of encounters. - and a side note, as the case is with the IE games (and D&D, as well as other RPGs), do NOT underestimate 1st level spells... be they from wizard or priest. Scrolls are useful too, and they can be used by other classes as well, provided they meet the Lore requirement.

I'm not trying to sound condescending (even though I probably do, sorry), but experiment and have some patience. My first try at the game was an abject failure, I admit.

 

Not gonna talk about real-time vs. turn-based, as that was addressed by someone else a few pages back, and they made a good point (in short, it comes down to just personal preference, there's not one that's superior over the other. At the very best, it's how well they're implemented in the entirety of the game. And I think in this case, it's damn well good).

 

I've made a fighter as my main character - the one I have been playing for the past 20 hours. Partially because I remember how versatile they were in the IE games, and partially because I thought it was a good idea not to pick a class that would only add to the overwhelming task of learning a completely new rule-system, like a cipher. I have to say, I'm impressed. Like, a lot.

Sorry for the rant. Just couldn't help myself.

[Teln3t]

Perhaps this has been mentioned in the entirety of these pages of replies, but...

First of all, no, there is certainly not a propensity of one class to be exactly what you expect it to be, I think you might have imposed that on yourself - as have I, when I first played it back in the beta stage. I've waited for the release and since then I can't stop playing it. I'm only 20 hours in, and with each moment that I play, it occurs to me that it's exactly the opposite. The game offers immense variety in customizing your characters/classes. What I'm trying to say is, no, there are no archetypes - only to a certain degree. Of course you probably won't have a wizard charging into battle in their underpants against three ogres wielding a two-hander or something like that. Obviously, you're gonna have some characters designed to hold the front line, others flinging spells or what have you from the back. But oh man, there is a lot of diversity in how those things could be achieved. Off the top of my head (different tactics that I've applied according to situation) - 1) have someone place a trap in a chokepoint then lure the enemies into said trap, only to have them barraged by spells or arrows; 2) always handy to have at least one character with a long-reaching weapon like a pike (I particularly like to do this with a priest, since he will remain in the middle of the formation and his buffs will affect everyone); 3) wizards can wield crossbows too, you know. or any class, for that matter. no need to waste precious spells on every pack of weaklings. 4) again with the weapon sets: there's a reason why your Cyclopedia updates itself when you kill a certain number of one specific enemy - you learn the weaknesses, and therefore can prepare accordingly - throughout your entire party, you could have Piercing/Slashing/Crushing damage ready to be delivered in the right direction... and so on... I'm certain there's a lot more.

Seriously, as much as I adore the old IE games (therefore, the D&D ruleset), it's so refreshing to see a NEW cRPG system so well-made and implemented - and I'm certain I've only grazed the tip of it. I'm only now getting the hang of it all... it's all about how much patience you have to let go of your presumptions of what X class should be. And if you truly want it to be the way you imagine it, there's nothing stopping you... by all means, hire adventurers at the inn and make them all impossibly tanky and fill your party with them. What's stopping you?

 

As for the spells... I dunno what to say, perhaps you're not using them right. Since you didn't really offer any examples or anything of the sort, I can only say that from my experience I'm a hell of a lot happier ever since I got a certain priest in my party, who keeps the rest up and fighting through the toughest of encounters. - and a side note, as the case is with the IE games (and D&D, as well as other RPGs), do NOT underestimate 1st level spells... be they from wizard or priest. Scrolls are useful too, and they can be used by other classes as well, provided they meet the Lore requirement.

I'm not trying to sound condescending (even though I probably do, sorry), but experiment and have some patience. My first try at the game was an abject failure, I admit.

 

Not gonna talk about real-time vs. turn-based, as that was addressed by someone else a few pages back, and they made a good point (in short, it comes down to just personal preference, there's not one that's superior over the other. At the very best, it's how well they're implemented in the entirety of the game. And I think in this case, it's damn well good).

 

I've made a fighter as my main character - the one I have been playing for the past 20 hours. Partially because I remember how versatile they were in the IE games, and partially because I thought it was a good idea not to pick a class that would only add to the overwhelming task of learning a completely new rule-system, like a cipher. I have to say, I'm impressed. Like, a lot.

Sorry for the rant. Just couldn't help myself.

 

I think you hit it spot on. Sure it isn't canon DND....but I didn't want that anyway tbh. Developers have their own ideas of how to implement things and that's fine - so long as they do it will. And I believe that obsidian did a fantastic job with implementing their system. I can finally have the wizard that wields a sword instead of a damn staff (as in every other rpg). I LOVE THAT! I can't tell you how long I've wanted a wizard to be able to wield a sword rather than a wand or staff. It's a relief and thank you Obsidian.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm still learning the differences between crush/pierce etc....but hey. I love this game.

[kirottu]

The main problem with Might is its implementation. Developers say it means two things: physical and mental might, but only refer it as physical might in dialogue. You can't say something is two things and then always treat it as one or another, but never as both.

 

They should have made Might responses class sensitive. Example:

 

1, [Might 16] You flex your muscles menacingly.

2, [Might 16] The air around you crackles with threat.

 

Fighter would get only option 1, wizard would get only option 2, and hybrid like cipher would get both.  

[Valsuelm]

Might increasing magic damage is retarded.

[Zorfab]

Nobody in their right mind has every though 2nd Ed AD&D was "intuitive". "Intuitive" was never really their goal. It was stats, charts, and numbers heavy because it was trying to be ultra-realistic, in that virtually everything was directly measurable. It was never quite as bad as GURPS, but it was pretty bad.

 

There is one difference though. AD&D was an unmitigated disaster on that account and GURPS is a sterling success. I`ve played and been a game master on both systems extensively so I have a good idea on what these systems are all about. GURPS is a great system out of the box for realistic games and can be easily streamlined to simpler forms for fantasy games as well (Dungeon Fantasy series of supplements + Thaumatology Ritual Paths).

[Zorfab]

 

 

I agree 100%, and I also make no pretense to being in my right mind. Still, Strength = how strong your character is makes a lot more sense to me than Might = how strong your character is and all forms of damage and healing and also "soul power" I guess?.

 

And you know, GURPS uses the d%, just like Pillars of Eternity.

 

 

Yes, the attributes in PoE are strange and are there only because devs wanted to make choosing them mechanically difficult. It`s decidedly computer game / tactical game system and not something that would bend easily for pen and paper tabletop RPG use.

 

By the way, GURPS does NOT use percentile system. It uses 3d6 for success rolls, which gives you a nice gaussian curve for probabilities. That simulates task difficulty better than d20 or d100 systems, which have linear probabilities. System also assumes that if your skill is 10 above the basic task difficulty, you are going to succeed with it automatically (routine tasks give at least +4 to roll, so anyone with a skill of 16 is skilled enough to qualify for this).

[Eluseyna]

I've only played POE for a few hours so far, and I'm playing on the hard difficulty setting.

And I must say when my party was killed quite easily on around my 4 or 5 encounter, I felt happy.

 

Because I thought "This game is going to require me to think about my combat strategy" 

After this I began to work at this strategy using the characters in separate ways, and moving them around separately into different positions.

 

Where as if I was to run in with all my characters to attack say 3 Wolf's then really it's a good thing when they all get knocked out. 

If they killed the 3 Wolf's quite easily... Well that's not challenge, it would be too easy.

 

So, so far I'm finding it fun, enjoyable, and challenging to learn about and find different methods that work in combat.

 

Sneaking with one character is easy btw.. I'm not sure why people are having an issue with that.  

[endruwiggin]

Might increasing magic damage is retarded.

 

They didn't call it strength for a reason

[SKull]

I have experienced everything the OP has written in regards to combat. Ranged weaponry is almost useless as the speed at which the enemies close to engage is quicker than the time you can get a 2nd shot off. Scouting/sneaking seems to be a whole party affair as well. I can't get a single member to sneak only the whole party. Not that it matters as my range of discovery is the same as the range of my ranged wepaonry, so there is no tactical advantage.

 

In fact, I reduced the difficulty to easy and had 4 armed and armored ready players and couldn't even kill 4 Boars (2 of them Young Boars!).  Let's not even discuss the Cave Bear which required 3 of the 4 players to die, every potion drunk, all dinner plates wiped clean and several spells mis-cast to finally kill that thing. Pre-combat buffing seems to be impossible as most of the buffs can only be cast after combat has already started and their duration is too brief, never mind how long it takes to cast even the simplest buff.

 

Trying to figure out the functional difference between endurance and health is a real head scratcher. What is the point of actual health when it is a non factor in combat? Once you lose endurance, you're out of the battle. You could have hundreds of health points and get knocked out in the first round!

 

Reading the replies carefully I see there is a lot of blind fanaticism to genuine critisism and your devotion to an inefficient system does no service to the game.  Curiously, I played the beta more than once and didn't run into these specific problems, it's almost as if they wanted to surprise us with them.

 

I just don`t understand how it can be this hard. I cleared the bear cave on hard with Eder tanking and two mages casting spells without any trouble at all. Nobody died and I didn`t have to use any potions either. The fight I have had to try the most times so far is the pack of lions right east of the big city. But that also got done in the end with five characters at level 4. Are you guys deliberately leading with squishies just so you can come here and complain or something?

[Sordel]

So, to sum up:-

 

The o/p titles the thread "Your RPG system sucks!" and never posts again after the first post.

 

Forget about RPG tactics and familiarity ... I think there are some posters to this thread who forgot how the internet works. 

[TheUsernamelessOne]

So, to sum up:-

 

The o/p titles the thread "Your RPG system sucks!" and never posts again after the first post.

 

Forget about RPG tactics and familiarity ... I think there are some posters to this thread who forgot how the internet works. 

 

Hey, I've got an excuse. I figured as long as I had to wait for the game to get patched into a playable state I might as well go on these forums and whine about all the stuff I don't like as if anyone cares.

 

I would be playing Xenonauts but strangely that too is also currently broken and awaiting a patch.

[NorthernSquirrel]

When did the term "RPG", as in "Roleplaying Game", change it's meaning to "Single Player World Of Warcraft"? You don't need to have a bull**** crafting system where you create minor health potions you never use, nor do you need to swap from your cow leather armor to space cow leather armor every 5 minutes for incremental upgrades. You don't need to go on search for le epic loot and kill a big spider for a sword of cutting +1 that magically cuts through flesh somehow better than a regular ass sword.

 

Simple version: Why do people whine for these things and associate them with the term "RPG"

Edited March 29, 2015 by NorthernSquirrel

[TheUsernamelessOne]

When did the term "RPG", as in "Roleplaying Game", change it's meaning to "Single Player World Of Warcraft"? You don't need to have a bull**** crafting system where you create minor health potions you never use, nor do you need to swap from your cow leather armor to space cow leather armor every 5 minutes for incremental upgrades. You don't need to go on search for le epic loot and kill a big spider for a sword of cutting +1 that magically cuts through flesh somehow better than a regular ass sword.

 

Are you saying that's what you do in Pillars of Eternity? Because that isn't what you do in Pillars of Eternity.

[NorthernSquirrel]

 

When did the term "RPG", as in "Roleplaying Game", change it's meaning to "Single Player World Of Warcraft"? You don't need to have a bull**** crafting system where you create minor health potions you never use, nor do you need to swap from your cow leather armor to space cow leather armor every 5 minutes for incremental upgrades. You don't need to go on search for le epic loot and kill a big spider for a sword of cutting +1 that magically cuts through flesh somehow better than a regular ass sword.

 

Are you saying that's what you do in Pillars of Eternity? Because that isn't what you do in Pillars of Eternity.

 

 

I'm sorry, I forget that not everyone on the internet is well versed in english. I edited the post for you.

[Isi1dur]

IMO they definitely should change the way Might works and place the Magic bonuses on another stat, or make the responses class sensitive as is brilliantly suggested above.

 

From a RP point of view a Wizard really shouldn't be intimidating people with the strength and size of his muscles.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Isi1dur

[TheUsernamelessOne]

IMO they definitely should change the way Might works and place the Magic bonuses on another stat, or make the responses class sensitive as is brilliantly suggested above.

 

From a RP point of view a Wizard really shouldn't be intimidating people with the strength and size of his muscles.

 

Okay, even if they could do the different strokes for different folks thing, because they can't, how is it a "brilliant" idea? And how is it a good roleplay option to say that Wizards can't possibly be strong and intimidating and therefore could never physically intimidate people? People aren't defined by their classes. They're supposed to be defined by their attributes and your roleplaying; your class is just an abstract set of rules that simulate your character's chosen adventuring career. It's like saying, "An accountant really shouldn't be intimidating people with the strength and size of his muscles." Not all Wizards are glass-boned elves with porcelain skin who dissolve into fairy dust in a stiff breeze. Not all Fighters are big hulking thugs in heavy armor swinging mattocks.