Hard mode is too easy.

[Tanred]

 

 

Could just as easily be spell, talent and class balancing. .

 

 

This is definitely part of the problem aswell. Certain classes are certainly overpowered due to some mechanics, whereas others are significantly weaker.

 

Prime example: Wizards vs. Chanters vs. Ciphers. Due to the focus mechanic, ciphers are way stronger than the other two. Chanters are basicly just auto-attackers with some slight buffing potential until they accumulated 3 stacks (which usually doesn't happen until the critical part of the battle is over).

Wizards have huge disadvantages over the other two: restricted spell uses per rest, restricted spell selection through the spellbook mechanic, weaker stat gains, lots and lots of friendly-fire spells (most cipher and chanter abilities are foe-only!).

Ciphers are imho the single most powerful class in the game. If I were to play a game with 6-of-a-kind just for fun, I'd probably take cipher and steamroll everything. It's ridicolous how strong Grieving Mother is, even with her absolutely terrible attribute selection.

 

Other than that, I'd like to copy & paste something I already posted in another thread:

 

--> adjust the XP curve beyond level 7 slightly upwards towards exponential progression (I'd say change the 66.000 XP total to reach max level to 85.000 XP total).

--> drastically reduce bounty rewards ... those are just way overtuned.

--> reduce trap disarm XP by at least 30%. This is heavily overtuned anyway. You get almost 1000 XP from traps in Raedrics Hold alone. The quest XP reward is only twice that!

--> increase accuracy values of all hard mode enemies in act 2 by 5 and act 3 by 10. This will also affect PotD, so that's a pretty elegant solution in combination with...

--> ...a rebalancing of all defensive talents granting deflection. Tune down the deflection bonuses awarded by those talents by at least 30%. Because of the way deflection works, the bonuses are way too large (You can get a flat +30 deflection bonus through talents alone! ... this means all crits get converted to hits and all hits get converted to graces... this is just way too much impact). This will also help to reduce the enormous deflection gap between tanks and non-tanks.

--> nerf shields and shield enchants. Seriously, they just got way too much deflection on them, especially when enchanted. Again, a difference of 30 deflection means that all attacks against this target get reduced by one damage tier. Deflection is just way too easy to stack with the current OP shields in the game. 16 base deflection on large shields?

--> change Constitution to reduce the recovery penalty of armors. This will also help a lot to reduce the gap between tanks and non-tanks, by allowing casters to wear light and medium armor without too much penalty in DPS.

--> nerf constant recovery. Seriously, this ability is just way too strong. Fighters should be at least comparable to monks and paladins in terms of tanking capability. Due to the way endurance works, constant recovery is just overpowered.

 

 

All these fixes together should greatly help to fix the balancing of the game. All those are number changes, so wouldn't be hard to implement imho.

 

I agree with all of this only I'd remove all trap disarm/door unlock XP, because those things are rewarding by themselves and there is no need to add XP to it. Likewise, I'd remove or at least reduce the amount of bestiary XP (but I guess that would be slightly controversial because there are folks who want monster XP).

[Rumpelstilskin]

I don't think tanks are a problem, kath auto (that's a pretentious way of saying per se). The problem is that melee AI lacks aggro and just targets the closest unit. That said, most non-filler fights have ranged units that target your squishy back line, casters that do AoEs, occasionally even mind strikers, so I too regard claims about just clicking through everything with some skepticism. Mental binding is a bit OP, but I think making it single-target is enough to fix it (I don't even see why it's an AoE in the first place).

 

Of course, adding aggro, or perhaps even deliberate bee-lining to your most vulnerable units would instantly make tanks almost useless, except if there are natural choke points. Even engagement won't help much, since it just means they'll land a free attack with a pathetically weak single-handed weapon they are likely using. Maybe breaking engagement could also result in a free knockdown attempt.

[Mazisky]

I don't think tanks are a problem, kath auto (that's a pretentious way of saying per se). The problem is that melee AI lacks aggro and just targets the closest unit. That said, most non-filler fights have ranged units that target your squishy back line, casters that do AoEs, occasionally even mind strikers, so I too regard claims about just clicking through everything with some skepticism. Mental binding is a bit OP, but I think making it single-target is enough to fix it (I don't even see why it's an AoE in the first place).

 

Of course, adding aggro, or perhaps even deliberate bee-lining to your most vulnerable units would instantly make tanks almost useless, except if there are natural choke points. Even engagement won't help much, since it just means they'll land a free attack with a pathetically weak single-handed weapon they are likely using. Maybe breaking engagement could also result in a free knockdown attempt.

 

I think it would be nice to add aggro and add warriors spells and talents like taunts and similar with a limited duration in combat and a few uses for combat.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Mazisky

[ComplyOrDie]

I don't think tanks are a problem, kath auto (that's a pretentious way of saying per se). The problem is that melee AI lacks aggro and just targets the closest unit. That said, most non-filler fights have ranged units that target your squishy back line, casters that do AoEs, occasionally even mind strikers, so I too regard claims about just clicking through everything with some skepticism. Mental binding is a bit OP, but I think making it single-target is enough to fix it (I don't even see why it's an AoE in the first place).

 

Of course, adding aggro, or perhaps even deliberate bee-lining to your most vulnerable units would instantly make tanks almost useless, except if there are natural choke points. Even engagement won't help much, since it just means they'll land a free attack with a pathetically weak single-handed weapon they are likely using. Maybe breaking engagement could also result in a free knockdown attempt.

True that there are a few (but not enough) enemies where the ranged guys will try and hit your back line. Phantoms/spectres do this quite well, the problem with tanks being so good is it makes the melee troops a non threat, so you don't have to juggle between keeping a ranged guy alive and keeping the tank up generally, because the tank is fine. In many fights you end up with 6 melee guys scrambling around Eder desperately trying and failing to even out dps his recovery trait, taking so many enemies out of the fight means generally there isn't much left to worry about. Personally I think non engaged melee enemies should have some kind of ai check every 'round' to assess if there's a better target, criteria for that is up for debate though. Certainly if you hit an non engaged melee opponent with. Fireball he should be running over to smack your face in asap,

[Gilker]

I have some concern with balance too.

 

i just finshed the game yesterday, with a full party composed of Eder, Aloth, durance, Hiravias, Pallegina and my main character : a rogue.  the least i can say is that the difficulty is not linear. I had some really hard time in the raedrics hold and the destroyed chapel (did it with my rogue and aloth only) in the beginning. i first found it almost to hard for "hard mode". after thoses early fights, the game suddenly became more and more easy as we gain levels pretty fast.

 

in the middle of the act II, i had to restrain myself to use certain spells and objects to continue to ejoy the fights.

 

among those, there are the figurines... summoning wood beetles, adra beetles, black widows and shadows is ridiculously overpowered. i understand their use for a solo player, but with a full party its way too mutch. cast them in the beginning of a fight, take you ranged weapons, and get you some popcorns

 

spells... i have a few in mind, the best exemple is the bouncing fireball, level 5 druid spell. i can end most of the fights in this game by casting this spell once or twice. with scion of fire, i usually deal 6X150 damage, more with crits, this is wayyyyyyyy too mutch IMO. KO fighter habilities and level 5 call to slumber are too powerfull too IMO. that poor feather dragon spend 3/4 of the fight sleeping on his back. he died at my first attemps, with no tactics, no loss, no placement or anything else, it was my first dragon encounter and i just wanted to see how it comes before making a plan to kill it. to me, powerfull creatures should have immunity to that kind of spells.

 

hope it can help for an upcoming patch or addon

 

great great game by the way, loved it.

[View619]

Hey guys, in all honesty hard can be difficult if you play an under powered class.

 

The Fighter class is very powerful because of that constant recovery ability, grab moon like godability and you're set.

 

We should not need to gimp ourselves in order to make the "difficult" modes a challenge. I can understand the argument for Normal, but Hard and POTD make the claim that a challenge will be provided throughout the campaign, which is currently false.

 

At this point, I'm starting to wish that melee units would just take the disengagement attack from the tank instead of sticking to him like glue. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by View619

[sparklecat]

Also, just in case anyone was worried about this, the final boss fight is not too easy.  I just wiped for the third time after 45 minutes and it is wonderful.

 

8th time's the charm!

 

And yeah, I'm sure you can cheese the fight if you get off a lucky spell before the main bad guy gets his defenses up, but it's a lot more fun if you don't.

[Mazisky]

People don't realize that Hard should be HARD (like the name says, and it is not) and PoD should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to beat.

 

Actually Hard is Normal (but post act 2 it is EASY) while POD is quite hard at start and NORMAL mid\late.

 

This is a completely balance mess and saying things like "try to avoid side content" or "last boss is difficult" doesn't change the fact at all, it is just a desperate try to deny that.

 

I LIKE THE GAME like you all but let's try to be honest please.

 

We have to be honest with criticism if we wanna the game to grow up better with patches and tweaks.

 

Denying won't make the game better

Edited April 10, 2015 by Mazisky

[TinyBitHandsome]

I agree 100%. Hard mode is kinda easy. I had a hard time the first hour or so, but once I got the hang of it. It got really easy. 

[sparklecat]

I'm not denying anything, buddy; I've been saying they need to fix hard mode most of this thread.  The last boss is a good example of how boss fights on that difficulty setting should feel throughout the whole game, not just one or two times.

[demeisen]

Ladies and gents - I've managed to find some nicely hard combat in

 

some of the the lower reaches of The Endless Paths (L9 party)

 

and it's been great!  I've had to use spells, class abilities, good tactics, some items, etc to survive.  Some of them were hard-won fights!  I didn't feel over-leveled or over-powered for it at all.  It has been almost exactly how I'd want "hard" to be: "you can survive, but be on top of your game."

 

This makes me really optimistic that tuned appropriately, with some tweaks and modest AI improvements here and there, and with level-appropriate things to fight, this combat system could be just fantastic.

Edited April 10, 2015 by demeisen

[Mazisky]

 

 

This makes me really optimistic that tuned appropriately, with some tweaks and modest AI improvements here and there, and with level-appropriate things to fight, this combat system could be just fantastic.

 

THIS. Game base is great, with balance tweaks will be awesome

Edited April 10, 2015 by Mazisky

[Gilker]

if you remember, BGII wa kinda easy on hard too. but taking out Firkraag on the first playthrough... it took me about 10 quickload at least. when you mastered the game (spells, builts, objetcs...) it was über easy on hard settings. i remember taking down a dragon defenseless in suldanesselar using time stop with my kensai/mage weilding crom faer and celestial fury, it was ridiculous (but still fun).

 

we can conclude PoE is too easy on hard settings because even without mastering the game or even having good knowledge of the new spells ans talents, we can steamroll 3/4 of the game. the final fight was a good exemple, i died poorly at my first attempt. at my second attemp, i just changed the placement of my group (sneaky fire pillars falling from the sky), put some summons to occupy the two big guys, and i casted some random buff/debuff spell with my wizard (i was reading description of the spells during combat...) and that was it . my main character barely survived, but the fight as over, i honestly don't know what spells worked (the 15 level spell barrier saved aloth big time i think but thats my only clue), what weapons were the most effective... no plan at all.

 

ps : the final fight feel so mutch icewindalish, i could have faced poquelin or isair/madae, i would not have been shocked . same feel, same type of area... brings back good memories !

[James Harrison]

I'm finding hard a lot less challenging than I would like, and mostly think it is due too one major issue

 

XP gain feels too fast

 

Thus I'm not finding most fights challenging, and feel I'm out-levelling the game. The game is great, and I'm not complaining, just looking forward too a second play-through where I'm small fry for longer - and challenged harder. (In my first play through I'm still pottering about in defiance bay and have hit level 8 with a reasonable number of things things still to do and Heritage Hill still to visit).

 

The game challenged me at the start, and that was great - but after getting 5 party members and hitting 4th/5th level it's been mostly plain sailing.

 

Looking forward to the next update! AWEOME game.

 

Shalom

[sparklecat]

I've been thinking about it, and I think my experience with the final fight highlighted one of the difficulty issues for me - only now, after doing that, could I actually tell you anything about what spells attack what defenses beyond basic stuff like "dominating is going to be vs Will."  This should be something I have to learn as I'm going through 70-odd hours on this difficulty setting, just to survive, and instead it's right at the end that I start learning what my spells actually do rather than simply firing stuff off blindly/uninformed and having it work out just fine?

 

This is really the crux of the problem, and a large part of what makes it clear that this is a real issue, IMO; I am new and bad at this game and still did just fine on hard.  And I've seen others saying the same, as well.

[Luckmann]

I've been thinking about it, and I think my experience with the final fight highlighted one of the difficulty issues for me - only now, after doing that, could I actually tell you anything about what spells attack what defenses beyond basic stuff like "dominating is going to be vs Will."  This should be something I have to learn as I'm going through 70-odd hours on this difficulty setting, just to survive, and instead it's right at the end that I start learning what my spells actually do rather than simply firing stuff off blindly/uninformed and having it work out just fine?

 

This is really the crux of the problem, and a large part of what makes it clear that this is a real issue, IMO; I am new and bad at this game and still did just fine on hard.  And I've seen others saying the same, as well.

 

I think it comes down to the rules simply being too lax, by and large. Even if you don't hit, you Graze, and the feedback you get on it is more or less "Eh, it hit, I guess". With no Immunities, no hard counters, and no major resistances, you can really just barge through the game like a drunken fool and just sorta headbutt your way through encounters, even if you suck - and if you don't suck, you'll just do tank and spank from start to finish, which is even worse.

 

PoE consists of all these loose parts and mechanics that could be good on their own, but when they all come together, it doesn't play very well, imo, like the no-combat-xp.. but then you still have bestiary xp, lockpick xp, and trap xp... or the idea that combat should be a decision in some cases, yet with the unlimited stash, the infinigold merchants and the enchanting system, you want to kill everything anyway... or the excellent ideas of the generalized attributes and armours, yet the bonuses end up pigeon-holing you as either tank or dps, or all the mobility things to deal with engagement, yet it just ends up with you not wanting to move or adjust due to the many compound penalties and risks.

 

There's still a lot of potential here, but I think it's all just.. too easy and doesn't all interact with all the other stuff very well. Imagine going through any of the IE games like that. Yeah, you sucked at the beginning, and you died to those gibberlings, and you had no idea how armour worked, but by the end of the game, you'd learned the ropes because you had to, and adjusted, reacted in combat over and over, and been weaned of your noobhood.

 

In PoE, I don't even pay attention to what things do, or how they do it. This thing knocks them down? 'aight. This thing dazes them? 'aight, I have no idea what the penalties for that is, but it seems to work.

 

... I really have no idea what the penalties for daze are, yet I use it all the time, because it's accessible and it does something. It seems to matter, but I have no idea how much or if I really need to use it or not. Yes, I can check in-game, but I'm not in-game right now, and my point is that I never felt that it mattered for me to remember what it does. You can't even hover over the Daze of enemies to see what it does to them specifically, it's just an icon amongst all the others and a quick little timer timing down; was it supposed to last for just 5 seconds? Is that a Graze or a Hit? A Crit? No clue.

 

I guess it did something.

 

Such tactics. Much strategy.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Luckmann

[RushAndAPush]

Why are are certain people like Luckmann and Sensuki fanboying over a system like DnD that's not even made for computers and its not even good. you shouldn't even be able to criticize game systems if you think Baldurs gate system are good. You're just nostalgic.

[Luckmann]

Why are are certain people like Luckmann and Sensuki fanboying over a system like DnD that's not even made for computers and its not even good. you shouldn't even be able to criticize game systems if you think Baldurs gate system are good. You're just nostalgic.

 

I'm not fanboying over DnD or the IE games at all, and I have no idea why you'd think that. I don't think Sensuki would have any problems admitting to that, and then explain to you why, but me? Hah, no.

 

The IE games had issues, which I am always quick to point out, but they also did certain things better, which I will also, obviously, point out when true. The reason the IE games make for a quick comparison is because Pillars of Eternity is supposed to largely be a spiritual sequel, and specifically called upon those comparisons already in the Kickstarter.

 

If my last post annoyed you with the IE comparison, if it makes you feel better, there is any number of games that could serve to highlight that particular issue. There's a lot of games where you have to learn the rules to flourish, and can't stumble around like a drunken idiot on the path to success, not knowing what A does, or how C And D is different from B.

 

It has nothing to do with nostalgia. We genuinely prefer more tactical and strategic gameplay where you have to adapt to the situation. The underlying mechanics (which are horrible in the IE games, because as you say, it's not even made for computers; nowhere is this more obvious than with spells and buffs, for example) are largely irrelevant from that perspective.

 

I've repeatedly also criticized PoE on that very basis, that instead of capitalizing on the merits of having the chance to mould an entire game around the idea of real-time combat with rules under the hood, it seemingly seeks to implement PnP/Turn-Based mechanics (Such as Engagement) that need not serve a needed role (precisely because it is a computer vs. you), while we have things in the IE games that are better, despite the fact that it's a computerized interpretation of a system that should be alien to the format.

 

You seem to want to build up some false dichotomy where one side says PoE does everything better and the other side says that IE did everything better. But it's not true. We can acknowledge the flaws and merits of both, the difference being that PoE is here to be moulded and influence *now*. Discussing the things PoE does better than the IE games isn't really relevant, because the IE games aren't open to such criticism, it would be meaningless.

[Namutree]

 

I've been thinking about it, and I think my experience with the final fight highlighted one of the difficulty issues for me - only now, after doing that, could I actually tell you anything about what spells attack what defenses beyond basic stuff like "dominating is going to be vs Will."  This should be something I have to learn as I'm going through 70-odd hours on this difficulty setting, just to survive, and instead it's right at the end that I start learning what my spells actually do rather than simply firing stuff off blindly/uninformed and having it work out just fine?

 

This is really the crux of the problem, and a large part of what makes it clear that this is a real issue, IMO; I am new and bad at this game and still did just fine on hard.  And I've seen others saying the same, as well.

 

I think it comes down to the rules simply being too lax, by and large. Even if you don't hit, you Graze, and the feedback you get on it is more or less "Eh, it hit, I guess". With no Immunities, no hard counters, and no major resistances, you can really just barge through the game like a drunken fool and just sorta headbutt your way through encounters, even if you suck - and if you don't suck, you'll just do tank and spank from start to finish, which is even worse.

 

PoE consists of all these loose parts and mechanics that could be good on their own, but when they all come together, it doesn't play very well, imo, like the no-combat-xp.. but then you still have bestiary xp, lockpick xp, and trap xp... or the idea that combat should be a decision in some cases, yet with the unlimited stash, the infinigold merchants and the enchanting system, you want to kill everything anyway... or the excellent ideas of the generalized attributes and armours, yet the bonuses end up pigeon-holing you as either tank or dps, or all the mobility things to deal with engagement, yet it just ends up with you not wanting to move or adjust due to the many compound penalties and risks.

 

There's still a lot of potential here, but I think it's all just.. too easy and doesn't all interact with all the other stuff very well. Imagine going through any of the IE games like that. Yeah, you sucked at the beginning, and you died to those gibberlings, and you had no idea how armour worked, but by the end of the game, you'd learned the ropes because you had to, and adjusted, reacted in combat over and over, and been weaned of your noobhood.

 

In PoE, I don't even pay attention to what things do, or how they do it. This thing knocks them down? 'aight. This thing dazes them? 'aight, I have no idea what the penalties for that is, but it seems to work.

 

... I really have no idea what the penalties for daze are, yet I use it all the time, because it's accessible and it does something. It seems to matter, but I have no idea how much or if I really need to use it or not. Yes, I can check in-game, but I'm not in-game right now, and my point is that I never felt that it mattered for me to remember what it does. You can't even hover over the Daze of enemies to see what it does to them specifically, it's just an icon amongst all the others and a quick little timer timing down; was it supposed to last for just 5 seconds? Is that a Graze or a Hit? A Crit? No clue.

 

I guess it did something.

 

Such tactics. Much strategy.

 

This.

 

So friggin' true.

[Cronstintein]

Why are are certain people like Luckmann and Sensuki fanboying over a system like DnD that's not even made for computers and its not even good. you shouldn't even be able to criticize game systems if you think Baldurs gate system are good. You're just nostalgic.

 

I don't think anyone's in here saying we should move to a AC & THAC0 system

[Atheosis]

What's kind of annoying me at this point is the way some people want to turn the game having clear flaws into the game outright sucking.  I played it.  I beat it.  And I had a blast doing so.  The challenge is off.  It needs to be fixed.  That doesn't mean the game isn't great.

[Archaven]

I'm playing on hard. I think i agree it's a little easy. I think they need to have another difficulty Very Hard that has Path of Damned stats increased for enemies without the perma death of campanions.

[Luckmann]

I'm playing on hard. I think i agree it's a little easy. I think they need to have another difficulty Very Hard that has Path of Damned stats increased for enemies without the perma death of campanions.

I'm the opposite. I hate it when the enemy has to cheat to make a game harder. Blanket increases in stats is a broken way to increase difficulty and plays with the assumptions of the game. Difficulty should be about encounter design, what kind of opponents you face, the amount, the placement, and their intelligence, not just whether you increase the difficulty by 10%, 20%, 30% and so on.

 

Coincidentally, I'd like to have a difficulty between Hard and Path of the Damned, without the blanket increases the enemies get, but with the same encounter design (that is to say, maximum amount of enemies, and the hardest encounters, just without the cheating).

Edited April 11, 2015 by Luckmann

[Archaven]

 

I'm playing on hard. I think i agree it's a little easy. I think they need to have another difficulty Very Hard that has Path of Damned stats increased for enemies without the perma death of campanions.

I'm the opposite. I hate it when the enemy has to cheat to make a game harder. Blanket increases in stats is a broken way to increase difficulty and plays with the assumptions of the game. Difficulty should be about encounter design, what kind of opponents you face, the amount, the placement, and their intelligence, not just whether you increase the difficulty by 10%, 20%, 30% and so on.

 

Coincidentally, I'd like to have a difficulty between Hard and Path of the Damned, without the blanket increases the enemies get, but with the same encounter design (that is to say, maximum amount of enemies, and the hardest encounters, just without the cheating).

 

 

It has to suits the theme of the locales. It wont make sense that you have lions in dungeon or spectres with human adventurers. I agree encounter design would be nice as difficulty. But since veterans understand the rules and mechanics, there has to be a way or solution for a difficulty. No matter how hard a difficulty, it has to be achievable with the right preparation and strategy. If an increased difficulty greatly relies on luck even you have the right strategy, that seems wrong in terms of difficulty to me.

 

But then if veterans managed to figure out the right strategy and execute it flawlessly, will we end up with similar thread being too easy again?

[Cronstintein]

 

Coincidentally, I'd like to have a difficulty between Hard and Path of the Damned, without the blanket increases the enemies get, but with the same encounter design (that is to say, maximum amount of enemies, and the hardest encounters, just without the cheating).

 

 

I thought the only difference between Hard and Path was the stat boost.