Spells should all be per encounter

[Beldukil]

Does anyone else find themselves just not using many per rest spells because you might need them for a tougher battle in dungeons?  Sure you can rest,  but you need to conserve camping supplies too.  It makes casters so much less fun to play.  Maybe at higher levels it gets better when more spells are per encounter.

[Davos]

No

[Viperswhip]

I don't mind this system, it's pretty old school though, later games used a mana pool instead, basically merging sorcerers and wizards, but this forces you to be strategic. It's not as bad as running out of spells in BGT because at least your wizard can use a crossbow, sword or whatever.

[Whipstitch]

Does anyone else find themselves just not using many per rest spells because you might need them for a tougher battle in dungeons? 

 

Nope.

[Dongom]

It's actually nothing like the old-school games. In BG/IWD you can rest quite frequently making it practically "per encounter". Not so much in this game.  

 

It makes caster's a tad annoying early on, but it gets better later when you have more spells and spell tiers. Also ranged magic missile weapons if you blow your load.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dongom

[Enoch]

It's actually nothing like the old-school games. In BG/IWD you can rest quite frequently making it practically "per encounter". Not so much in this game.  

 

It makes caster's a bit annoying early on, but it gets better later when you have more spells and spell tiers. 

 

Edit: Quote function looking weird.  My addition starts here:

 

What it's actually more like is a tabletop gaming session.  While there aren't rules against resting frequently, and the BG/ID games didn't invent any, no gamemaster worth playing with is going to let their players pitch camp 6 times in the process of clearing a dungeon level. 

 

Many people played the earlier games with this mindset-- pushing forward to avoid resting in situations where it made no sense to be able to rest (even if the game technically allowed it).  This made for, I think, more exciting and strategic gameplay.  That's what PoE's rest limitations are trying to accomplish.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Enoch

[Gfted1]

Does anyone else find themselves just not using many per rest spells because you might need them for a tougher battle in dungeons?  Sure you can rest,  but you need to conserve camping supplies too.  It makes casters so much less fun to play.  Maybe at higher levels it gets better when more spells are per encounter.

 

Theres an "Unlimited Camping Supply" mod floating out there somewhere, which is going to be my solution to this problem.

[Magrusaod]

No. I am familiar with using wizards and casters in tabletop games. The balance for their AOE damage and crowd control effects they get along the way compared to other classes is the limited use of them. As well as the weak low level play. You need to tactically utilize your spells and dole them out through the day. Once you reach a higher level in this game, your 1st and 2nd level spells turn into Encounter spells instead of Slots per Rest. Until then though, learn to have your wizard do something else, like use a crossbow round to round until those spells are needed. 

[Voss]

Does anyone else find themselves just not using many per rest spells because you might need them for a tougher battle in dungeons?  Sure you can rest,  but you need to conserve camping supplies too.  It makes casters so much less fun to play.  Maybe at higher levels it gets better when more spells are per encounter.

 

Sure.  That is in fact the point- resource management.  Frankly, in most fights, even on hard, I don't need 'em.  If you really want to burn spells every fight, go cipher.

[Bazy]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67685-per-encounter-v-per-rest-abilities/

 

Have to agree with what I said in August. Per encounter are much more satisfying.

 

This system works but I feel it would be better if everything were per encounter. It would also help with balance since you can't potentially throw 30 some spells out on a late game fight. And it would help prevent the power gaming trend that is already occurring by continuing to pull enemy after enemy to keep the combat state going (along with your summons/buffs)

 

It would be cool if casters had things to do. Usually they just stand there and throw out weak auto attacks because I don't want to "waste" spells on weaker enemies. 

 

It would also make the early game muuuuch less painful for casters. Where auto attack/summoning characters seem to dominate

Edited March 27, 2015 by Bazy

[Meretrelle]

Having 2-4 suppies available is ridiculous. You are  continually backtracking to town to get more, then fight again, then repeat. It's destroying the game.

 

Either resting should not require any resources or  limit should be raised to ,say, 20.

 

And,please, don't get started with "old -school" and sh--t, acting all high and mighty as in lol-this-is-old-school-baby-get-back to-your-dragon-age-inquisition.  I played almost all CRPGs starting from the ones made pre-1990. And the way it's done here is no good. No good at all.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Meretrelle

[Namutree]

Having 2-4 suppies available is ridiculous. You are  continually backtracking to town to get more, then fight again, then repeat. It's destroying the game.

 

Either resting should not require any resources or  limit should be raised to ,say, 20.

 

And,please, don't get started with "old -school" and sh--t, acting all high and mighty as in lol-this-is-old-school-baby-get-back to-your-dragon-age-inquisition.  I played almost all CRPGs starting from the ones made pre-1990. And the way it's done here is no good. No good at all.

If your constantly backtracking then you're not playing effectively.

[PrimeJunta]

Having 2-4 suppies available is ridiculous. You are  continually backtracking to town to get more, then fight again, then repeat. It's destroying the game.

 

Either resting should not require any resources or  limit should be raised to ,say, 20.

 

And,please, don't get started with "old -school" and sh--t, acting all high and mighty as in lol-this-is-old-school-baby-get-back to-your-dragon-age-inquisition.  I played almost all CRPGs starting from the ones made pre-1990. And the way it's done here is no good. No good at all.

I'm playing on Hard and have never had to backtrack yet. I got my camping supplies to zero once, I think, and that's because I forgot to stock up when passing by the inn, and while it got a little fiddly to get by until I found more, it was not frustratingly hard.

 

I.e. if you feel like you need 20 camping supplies, I'm fairly confident you're not playing the game very well. Take a deep breath, read up on the mechanics, experiment a little, and it will come together.

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, the only reason I'd have to backtrack is because of fatigue. It's so freaking annoying to be forced to use camping resources (not that I've had to buy any yet, I've still got one left stuffed in a crate in Gilded Vale) or suffer a -20 accuracy just because you've been traveling around. In the IE games, I largely ignored fatigue, as the penalty was so minor, but I've found it annoying enough in PoE that I want all my characters to have at least 3 in Athletics for the -90% combat fatigue.

[PrimeJunta]

It would be cool if casters had things to do. Usually they just stand there and throw out weak auto attacks because I don't want to "waste" spells on weaker enemies.

 

 

But they do! More if you pick them. I gave Aloth Grimoire Slam and Durance Interdiction. With those plus Arcane Assault and Holy Radiance, I find myself dipping into the per-day spells only on the harder encounters.

[sleepofthejust]

People extoll the oldschool system of spells per day, because it requires "resource managment" and say that those who dislike it, do so just because it makes the game harder. I want to squash that right now. It was definitely designed for the sake of resource managment, forcing the player to choose between using something now and using something later; it created a metagame.

The problem is, that metagame has a first order optimization strategy: don't use any spells in case you need them later. The metagame has an optimal strategy which is at odds with the original game to which it was intended to add complexity, making it useless.

Several games have fallen into this trap and so many nostaligic people will support anything that reminds them of when we were kids.

This. is. bad. game. design. Yeah, I said it.

The thing is, it wouldn't be that hard to fix; maybe have spells per encounter tied to a stat, which could be debuffed. Maybe knocks on the head(critical hits) cause your mage to forget spells. Maybe you can use a spell once or twice per encounter, but if you use it twice you can't use it again until you rest. None of these is complex or any more difficult to implement than what's currently being done.

Thankfully it's very rarely a big deal in this game because of the talents PrimeJunta mentioned as well as the late-game changes to casts/encounter (so I've heard).

Just to be clear, I'm really happy with this game, but if we're bringing back decades-old IE design choices, we do need to be able to criticize them.

Edited March 29, 2015 by sleepofthejust

[Techno]

Kids these days need to l2p ;p

 

Seriously, it is a limitation on resources - different to mana/magicka but fulfilling the same function in a different way. It works fine and shouldn't be changed. Players need to just adapt to the limitation - that's what it's there for.

[Enoch]

People extoll the oldschool system of spells per day, because it requires "resource managment" and say that those who dislike it, do so just because it makes the game harder. I want to squash that right now. It was definitely designed for the sake of resource managment, forcing the player to choose between using something now and using something later; it created a metagame.

The problem is, that metagame has a first order optimization strategy: don't use any spells in case you need them later. The metagame has an optimal strategy which is at odds with the original game to which it was intended to add complexity, making it useless.

Several games have fallen into this trap and so many nostaligic people will support anything that reminds them of when we were kids.

This. is. bad. game. design. Yeah, I said it.

The thing is, it wouldn't be that hard to fix; maybe have spells per encounter tied to a stat, which could be debuffed. Maybe knocks on the head(critical hits) cause your mage to forget spells. Maybe you can use a spell once or twice per encounter, but if you use it twice you can't use it again until you rest. None of these is complex or any more difficult to implement than what's currently being done.

Thankfully it's very rarely a big deal in this game because of the talents PrimeJunta mentioned as well as the late-game changes to casts/encounter (so I've heard).

Just to be clear, I'm really happy with this game, but if we're bringing back decades-old IE design choices, we do need to be able to criticize them.

"Metagame" implies that it has the Player thinking about something that the character would not be considering.  I fail to see how that's the case here-- the character and player both know the nature of the resources available to them.  It's not "meta" at all.

 

And I really fail to see how "always wait for later and never use any per-day resources" constitutes a "first order optimization strategy."  The only optimization strategy I see is to balance the use of spells in encounters with the use other per-day or consumable resources (partymember health, heals, scrolls, potions, etc.) so that the party's goals can be accomplished without exhausting their Camping Supplies or running back to an Inn.  (Or dying!)  That's a multifaceted problem that depends on a huge range of variables.  It inserts an element of strategic decision-making into the tactical decision-making that goes on in the midst of fights.  That's a good thing, in my book. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Enoch

[Voss]

People extoll the oldschool system of spells per day, because it requires "resource managment" and say that those who dislike it, do so just because it makes the game harder. I want to squash that right now. It was definitely designed for the sake of resource managment, forcing the player to choose between using something now and using something later; it created a metagame.

The problem is, that metagame has a first order optimization strategy: don't use any spells in case you need them later. The metagame has an optimal strategy which is at odds with the original game to which it was intended to add complexity, making it useless.

No, that isn't the optimization strategy at all.  The point to the spells is to judge the combat you're in and decide if you need them to win.  Quite often, you shouldn't.   The resource management aspect comes in at the player's skill in judging the situation. 

The spells the game has are too ridiculous (well, the good ones) to be per encounter.  It would just mean face-rolling every single encounter with a curtain of fire/ice from druids and wizards.  As is, the cipher already has this problem- the powers are too good and make every combat 'cast, firing squad, repeat.'  

[sleepofthejust]

1. Metagaming in a RP context does refer to "player thinking about what character woudn't know", I meant it in a game design context where it is a seperate game within another game, e.g. any resource management system. Should've used a different word, but the point still stands that when you add something like this it should increase the decisions you make, not decrease them.

 

2. Whether you need them to win: I agree that this is a relevant choice that adds to your decision making, however as you've said, you very rarely "need" them to win. Instead a lot of the fun comes from using the spells in ways that synergize with your teamates or as part of a battle strategy, which you can't do because you might need them later. There's plenty of game decisions or strategies I don't need to use in order to win, but part of the fun is in trying to be efficient and explore the intricately designed battle system.

 

3. Judging the situation: I think I've argued that the binary "do I need this to win" is not a sufficient addition to decision making to offset the limitations it creates in strategy. Furthermore, based on what information are you "judging the situation"? You don't know what's waiting for you over the bridge or how far away the next rest area is. It would be a relevant choice if you had anything to base it on, but you don't so it just becomes easier to not use spells. After a whiule you could begin to guess how far each checkpoint is, or during a second playthough you would know in advance, but other than that you're judgement isn't based on anything because you don't know whats up next, you're exploring.

 

4. Spells are too good to be per encounter: I totally agree with you on this and I'm not suggesting they patch this change, but the spells are that good because they were designed for casts/day, not the other way around. My comments are about the issues in decades-old game design that we don't really look at because...nostalgia? I have suggested ways to improve the resource managment metagame and I think any of them would be better than the simplistic limitation used here. This system reduces your incentives to make meaningful decisions in battle and that's bad game design.

 

Again, to be clear...really enjoying the game.

Edited March 29, 2015 by sleepofthejust

[Mungri]

No. This would completely destroy all strategic value to spells if you could freely cast them every encounter and make the game far too easy. The spellcaster classes have other means of sustaining battles without using up all their spells on every mob - Wizards get per encounter grimoire skills and can take talents to make their sceptres deal considerable AoE damage. Priests get a fantastic per encounter party buff as well as being able to take +10 accuracy talents for weapon support.

 

I'm not having to backtrack for supplies or for resting on hard difficulty.

[Dongom]

People say at higher lvl wiz/druid low lvl spells become per counter? Is this true and at what level.

[vyvexthorne]

Seeing as though you can just run to the nearest town and re-buy camping supplies it doesn't seem all that too bad... plus there's reloading if you misjudge a difficult fight.

[DCParry]

 

Having 2-4 suppies available is ridiculous. You are  continually backtracking to town to get more, then fight again, then repeat. It's destroying the game.

 

Either resting should not require any resources or  limit should be raised to ,say, 20.

 

And,please, don't get started with "old -school" and sh--t, acting all high and mighty as in lol-this-is-old-school-baby-get-back to-your-dragon-age-inquisition.  I played almost all CRPGs starting from the ones made pre-1990. And the way it's done here is no good. No good at all.

I'm playing on Hard and have never had to backtrack yet. I got my camping supplies to zero once, I think, and that's because I forgot to stock up when passing by the inn, and while it got a little fiddly to get by until I found more, it was not frustratingly hard.

 

I.e. if you feel like you need 20 camping supplies, I'm fairly confident you're not playing the game very well. Take a deep breath, read up on the mechanics, experiment a little, and it will come together.

 

 

I agree (surprisingly!).  In fact, I find myself leaving behind most camping supplies I find on Hard because I am capped. 

 

The only issue is Aloth is a lazy schmuck. 

[Hogfather]

Playing on Hard, level 5-6. Haven't had a significant camp issue since very early on. If I mess up, or enter a region that's on the tough side for my level then I'll need to backtrack maybe. It adds a certain something to have to retreat and regroup for a second assault if its a very tough adventure.

 

I kind of imagine my battered team limping to the entrance and meeting back in town to lick their wounds before taking another stab. That's ... roleplaying. 

 

At the moment I'm trying to balance efficiency between camping for health, camping for fatigue and camping for spells. Knowing the feel of an encounter and adventure plan, being able to manage limited resources well adds a layer of strategic skill and satisfaction to playing the game well! Every time I have to leave a planted supply cache behind it feels good. 

 

There's mods out already that increase and uncap camping supplies limitations. I don't see a compelling reason to add this into the main game, if anything PoE errs on the side of a smidge too many creature comforts (Stash, I'm looking at you big fella, and don't get me started on ammo..).

 

Maybe up the camp supplies for whatever the Easy limit is, but 2xSupply cap is pretty much bang on for Hard imo.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hogfather