One thing I hated about the LS/DS issues in KOTOR

[Gorth]

Not everyone wants to play it 10 or 12 times. Some people want to play it once but do want to see the DS ending.

I've been having withdrawal symptoms because of the absence of a decent crpg since BG2:SoA... go ahead, shoot me

 

I might just be forgetting that there are casual gamers out there.

 

Would be nice to have had more of an impact on Bastilas path though the rest of the game at that time though. Ah well, I'll go occupy myself with a few more games of Kotor, then Master of Orion 2 and a lot of other oldies until Kotor2 hits the shelves... (going to be a long wait)

[Shdy314]

It would have been nice to keep her from falling in the first place. I knew as soon as that stupid cutscene after EASILY beating Malak on the Leviathan that next time I saw her she'd be evil. It's been done a million times before and I hope it isn't done again.

[Karzak]

I remember, Vader/Anakin paid with his life (Poof, game over)

Vader paied with his life for going from dark to light, in a single moment. It was a poor choice on his part, his change didn't kill him, his master did. He didn't pay when he went from light (or maybe medium, or medium rare, or over easy) in the first place, the rest of the stupid jedi paied with their lives.

[Darque]

So in other words, ALL of the choices you made during the game to be on LS/DS didn't matter. What really mattered was what your decision was on the top of that Temple.

Well said. That was my biggest problem with KotOR.

 

That any anything you did in game effected nothing or anything at all.

Thanks, that makes atleast 2 people who see things my way.

Hey, I said I kinda agreed.

[Hubert the Beardless]

Let me tell you when I felt that this DS-LS thing represented a real moral choice and not just a tool to divide the Force Powers, thus giving a one more time replayability.

There is this quest in KoTOR, choosing wether to fight or not that bounty hunter on Taris. I played as a pure Light Side character, and as the developers thought, I shouldn't get involved in that fight. But I was thinking, if not me, than who will stop this man to kill some other gladiators ? Also I was intrigued how tough that guy was. So I fought him to life or death, killed him, gained some Dark Side points, satisfied my curiosity, and went on my business.

Never for a moment I felt that I was wrong. I said to myself: sometimes you just have to make sacrifices, and the sacrifice here was loosing Light Side Points.

I thought it was worth it, and should I have reloaded to avoid that loss I would have been the biggest hypocrite.

 

The problem is charcteristic to the western world. We see things black or white, bad and wrong, good and evil, and we expect that the world should be like that. Well, it isn't. Real role playing does not mean choosing between some supposed to be good or bad things. Real roleplay means acting as you think you should act in thae given situation, based on your knowledge, your personality and feelings. Don't we all act like that in real life ? And our actions can be percieved as good or bad deeds by other people, or by the law.

 

So what bothered me in KoTOR was the D&D like Good and Evil system, and how the developers decided the morality of the things you do. They can direct other peoples reactions to my actions, that's right and as it should be. But they can't decide if killing that bounty hunter is bad. Why was that different from the murder ot dozens of Lower City gang members ?

 

Because the system will not change in The Sith Lords, my only expectation is that the developers pay much more attention to this aspect of the game. I don't want to be punished for my actions when I feel that I am doing good, and vice-versa.

And make the choices harder, make the player choose and reward him/her accordingly. Make the shallow player to choose an apparently good thing which turns out to be bad, and reward the other one who askes him/herself questions.

 

Make a third ending for neutral Jedis. Make side quests for neutral Jedis. Make those darn choices hard, so the answers are not that obvious anymore.

 

I don't want to see choices like kill=bad or avoid/not kill=good.

I want choices like:

 

defeat and kill = bad on the short term, good on the long term

defeat but do not kill = good on the short term, other choice later on

lose, yeah, lose = very bad, but provide interesting side quest to avoid re-loading

avoid fight at all = bad from the pont of view of teammates, very good on the long term, etc

 

I don't want all conversations/situations to be as complex as this, but make every choice equally interesting and rewarding.

 

I realise that this is very hard to accomplish, getting all those variables right, and it probably never will work with 100% accuracy ... but if someone, than I think the people at Obsidian can do it. Hell, I expect you doing it.

 

All these thoughts woke in me the urge to get my hands on the NWN Toolset once again ... I have to try to apply what I preach.

[Quiquag]

I agree, there should be more choices in the second game. Not only would the story line change on the top of them temple if you decided to suddenly go light or dark, but all your force powers would become kind of useless. Think about it, what if you went the entire game with light side powers...or dark side powers...then you switched. The force costs of using the powers that you had been using would be so enormous that it would weaken your character. In the second game there shouldnt be a major turning point like that where you can suddenly be redemed or damned despite what you have done the entire game.

[newc0253]

The problem is charcteristic to the western world. We see things black or white, bad and wrong, good and evil, and we expect that the world should be like that. Well, it isn't.Real role playing does not mean choosing between some supposed to be good or bad things. Real roleplay means acting as you think you should act in that particular situation, based on your knowledge, your personality and feelings.

Don't we all act like that in real life ? And our actions can be percieved as good or bad deeds by other people, or by the law.

huh, you manage to contradict yourself in the space of one paragraph:

 

if everyone in the "western world" (and i've no honest idea what you mean by this) thinks in black and white, then you'd expect that to be reflected in the decisions that they make on a daily basis.

 

in other words, the decisions in KOTOR are entirely consistent with "acting as you think you should act in that particular situation, based on your knowledge, your personality and feelings", because star wars is that kind of black and white game.

 

so either your premise or your conclusion is wrong. take your pick.

[Seth Tansill]

I personally liked the option to switch at the end so I could see both endings. It did feel a bit artificial, I must admit, and I agree on the front that the way you play through the game should reflect the ending. But it should not affect the way you choose at the end. If I want to play light side all the way and finish light side, let me. If I want to do that and finish dark side, let me. Please give me choices! (Shoot me if you must, I know I must sound like a dirty blasphemer to some of the more, erm, 'opinionated' out there). I did like the idea of the DS redempted, inherently good LS, pure evil, LS fallen ideas... leaving a total of *gasp* four endings, excluding the gender possibilities. I think it would have been less artificial if you got a choice after all those flashbacks in KotOR1 (Revan revelation) to strike Bastila down or something (then Malak takes her anyway)... turns out she survives and confronts you on the temple still... you might have regretted it and change your ways etc that might've seemed a bit more realistic. I think it's just we like subtle choices, e.g. battle tactics on the computer on Kashyyk, I chose DS options but wanted to be LS... I was like, oh... well thinking about it it is kinda evil to leave those people to be sacrificed, the same for the duel... it is evil to kill that deathmatch guy just for getting money. I believe a sliding scale would work in terms of the more DS you are, the darker possibilities you have in dialogue options, but still there remains 1 LS option. Or as LS, many LS options with different shifts and the 1 option that can lead you down DS. I imagine this is too far fetched to work as the amount of dialogue for it would be immense, I guess programming and coding could be pretty complicated. But, er, yeah. I'll stop typing because I think I'm slowly going off topic or whatever. Who was making cheese on toast again?

[jedimastermaniac]

well imo the answers that appear and u can supply in the question some NPCs will ask will depend on ur DS/LS rating e.g. i have a very high LS rating and i get the normal answers a neutral guy could have but if i had high DS rating then almost all of my options should be bad ones and let's say .. that it will almopst mark ur journey not go to higest DS rating then change mind and choose all the LS answers it's not very SW .. this happened much in kotor1 u could go LS very easily anytime u wanted but there should be still the very final decision too-temple on uknown planet for example but if at that point u had HIGH DS rating no LS answer should appear or at least one slim one and if u were LS there wouldbe still the DS answers as teh dark side clouds everything :rolleyes:

[Phoenix_Dfire]

So in other words, ALL of the choices you made during the game to be on LS/DS didn't matter. What really mattered was what your decision was on the top of that Temple.

Well said. That was my biggest problem with KotOR.

 

That any anything you did in game effected nothing or anything at all.

Thanks, that makes atleast 2 people who see things my way.

Hey, I said I kinda agreed.

Well I have to agree with Tyrell here. If you roleplayed properly then all the choices you made up to the "Big Moment" would have created a certain mindset. For instance, you are a Jedi and you've come up against Bastila. Now a Light Side Jedi would try to redeem her, but DS would join with her. Your choices up to that point have take the "free will" out of the Big Moment.

 

I liked that aspect in the original Jedi Knight but they did the same kind of trick in Jedi Academy as KOTOR, which didn't feel right to me.

 

It's an opinion.

[newc0253]

Now a Light Side Jedi would try to redeem her, but DS would join with her. Your choices up to that point have take the "free will" out of the Big Moment.

 

the idea that the PC shouldn't have any 'free will' as to key decisions in an RPG is silly nonsense.

 

this debate reminds me of all those dumb D&D alignment threads on the Bio boards, filled with newbs who think that D&D alignment is destiny.

[kefka]

Now a Light Side Jedi would try to redeem her, but DS would join with her.

That's my problem with Kotor. Everything revolves around Bastila. Why would a DS Revan 'join' with her? Bastila follows you, the true dark lord. She has no choice in the matter.

[Vivid]

a thought... did anyone ever kill off juhani on dant?? and if you did what happened at the temple?

[Darque]

Now a Light Side Jedi would try to redeem her, but DS would join with her.

That's my problem with Kotor. Everything revolves around Bastila. Why would a DS Revan 'join' with her? Bastila follows you, the true dark lord. She has no choice in the matter.

Agreed.... while I liked Bastila a lot... I didn't like being her sidekick <_<

[birdiedude]

I think that the spirit of this thread is that choices should be reflected in actual game play, so if you choose to be light side throughout the entire story the game should reflect this. The sudden choice in KotOR didn't support this; no one seemed to notice if you changed sides or if you simply remained the same. There wasn't enough left in the game at the time of the choice to really create a new persona. Effectively any change was rationalized entirely in the player

[AlanC9]

the idea that the PC shouldn't have any 'free will' as to key decisions in an RPG is silly nonsense.

 

this debate reminds me of all those dumb D&D alignment threads on the Bio boards, filled with newbs who think that D&D alignment is destiny.

Alignment shouldn't be destiny, but what about character? Is is such a bad thing if a game prevents people from behaving in an insanely inconsistent manner? It can't be bad for "role-playing" - a role-player wouldn't play such a character in the first place.

 

Of course, the obvious objection is that the game doesn't know your motivations, so you could have a consistent personality that the game doesn't understand (which is something like the issue Hubert raised above). But as a theoretical point, I don't see a problem.

[Shdy314]

the idea that the PC shouldn't have any 'free will' as to key decisions in an RPG is silly nonsense.

 

this debate reminds me of all those dumb D&D alignment threads on the Bio boards, filled with newbs who think that D&D alignment is destiny.

Alignment shouldn't be destiny, but what about character? Is is such a bad thing if a game prevents people from behaving in an insanely inconsistent manner? It can't be bad for "role-playing" - a role-player wouldn't play such a character in the first place.

 

Of course, the obvious objection is that the game doesn't know your motivations, so you could have a consistent personality that the game doesn't understand (which is something like the issue Hubert raised above). But as a theoretical point, I don't see a problem.

As a former Dark Lord of the Sith who's fractured mind was wiped and given new memories by the council it is not hard to imagine some confusion and conflicting behavior to be exhibitied by Revan. God, alignment shouldn't even be in D&D, so many people don't understand what it means. And yes it is such a bad thing when an RPG shoehorns a player into doing anything.

[Shdy314]

I think that the spirit of this thread is that choices should be reflected in actual game play, so if you choose to be light side throughout the entire story the game should reflect this. The sudden choice in KotOR didn't support this; no one seemed to notice if you changed sides or if you simply remained the same. There wasn't enough left in the game at the time of the choice to really create a new persona. Effectively any change was rationalized entirely in the player

[Hubert the Beardless]

huh, you manage to contradict yourself in the space of one paragraph:

 

if everyone in the "western world" (and i've no honest idea what you mean by this) thinks in black and white, then you'd expect that to be reflected in the decisions that they make on a daily basis.

 

in other words, the decisions in KOTOR are entirely consistent with "acting as you think you should act in that particular situation, based on your knowledge, your personality and feelings",

[Eurmal]

It is true that originally SW got DS/LS concept from oriental Yin (Darkness)/Yang (Light) but it is presented as good/evil while the nature of Yin/Yang is different. Like other metaphysical concepts, Yin/Yang tells us how the world can be viewed through two aspects but it doesn

[Topaz Quasar]

I'm complaing that Bioware said that the fate of the galaxy was determined by the actions you made in the game and that certainly wasn't true.

 

Thats what I'm mad about. They made me believe that the things I did on Taris/Dantooine/Kasykkk(sp?)/Manaan/Korriban determined the fate of the world.

You sure it wasn't a marketing ploy, or you misinterpereted it?

 

Either way, it seems Obsidian was a little more "honest" since I read somewhere (I think an interview) that it mostly comes down to a decisive moment

 

But the characters are more dynamic now in this game, so perhaps your choices early on in KOTOR2 will have more meaning than in KOTOR.

[sniggy]

personality-tracking system???

 

"you are now entering the dark side"

 

meh. i'll stick with the epic choices. save your son from the emperor and redeem yourself kindda thing.

[Shdy314]

Either way, it seems Obsidian was a little more "honest" since I read somewhere (I think an interview) that it mostly comes down to a decisive moment

It was common knowledge before KOTOR came out that KOTOR would have a defining moment where youre character would end up on the dark side or light side path(and get that ending) without anymore attempts to fall or redeem themselves.

[Evizzle]

I liked the whole "last minute decision" factor in KOTOR, for one, I could just save there and play out both endings so I didn't have to go through the whole game again making different dialogue choices just to view the other ending. Also, I was going through the whole game light side, not once doing a darkside decision. But Bastila's proposal sounded so tempting, I became dark side, so it's a test on the player, and I think it was pulled off well. It also saves a lot of time. And, if I recall, they already said they'd do the same things in this game, so...Too late!

[Chemix]

I semi agree with Darques post. But beleive there should be more options as to how things should turn out. IE going DS and then realising that the path is wrong and turning on bastila and ur sith followers. Then perhaps the option to redeem bastila. or going LS and then deciding to take the star forge as ur own and crush the republic. Temptation and Redemtion. I think that there should be more DS choices and fewer LS choices in dialogs if ur DS and vice versa for Light side. There is always the chance to go either way. A person who has committed many "evil" acts isn't forced to forever be evil. And someone who has been "good" for all their life can turn their backs no everything. Suddenly switching should be a harder process. I don't think of powers as dark or light side. Merely how one uses them. Sith alchemy/magic is wrong but I don't see things such as lightning as definitively evil, yoda threw it back at dooku in episode 2, when he could have easily just absorbed it like he did the second time. Perhaps LS and DS and nuetral should be set up, rather than a basic 2 way scale of LS DS with nuetrality in the middle, but with 3 sides, ultimate Nuetrality, ultimate Darkside, and ultimate Lightside, but thats just one idea where they could go with it. The pevious choices u have made throughout the game shouldn't be meaningless but u shouldn't be forced to choose a specific path due to previous actions.