SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[Sensuki]

I don't really care about preventing kiting, but I do care about bugs/exploits like the fog of war exploit and this recovery time slow negatively impacting mobile melee characters.

[Voss]

So I've realized from lephys's arguments, that we have a much, much stronger statement.

 

We need to reduce kiting.   Kiting is essentially a ranged versus melee problem.    As we can see,  Sensuki can easily kite with a ranged character.  

 

No, what needs to be done is the devs need to stop inflicting crappy artificial subsystems* just because a developer doesn't like it when people use different approaches to combat.  There is no need to code this kind of nonsense in, especially with all the actual problems that need to be addressed.

 

 

*that don't even work as intended

Edited March 21, 2015 by Voss

[DigitalCrack]

 

What would be the point of breakingg it down that far and going to such lengths to implement something so unnecessary? I mean gameplay wise that wouldnt amplify any aspect of it.

I don't follow. Armor currently just increases your recovery time by X%. How does that "amplify any aspect of" gameplay? I'm unclear on what you mean by breaking it down "that far," and what criteria beyond "is it necessary?" you're using to decide whether or not something should be in the game (as I'm fairly certain you aren't suggesting that something that isn't strictly necessary shouldn't be in a game's design, as that would eliminate about 90% of the game).

Sorry didn't realize I needed a spreadsheet of figures for you to understand what I was referencing? So when your done nitpicking about stuff that doesn't matter (which was my point) maybe I can get a less douche-y response. Anyway what I said was in reference to the changes you were suggesting for slowed recovery while moving which is unnecessary in the first place because as sensuki has showed many of times it fails at what it was supposed to do (another kite prevention measure).

[wolfstriked]

kiting still being present is for noobs to be able to beat any enemy they want if they get stuck...

[Osvir]

I made this thing in Paint.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fpwgo99yoevanu/kiting25no25.png?dl=0
 

Without a Slowed Recovery Rate you have to run a shorter distance before you turn around and fire. Meaning, you get to fire off more times, in a shorter distance, before the enemy catches up to you.

With Slowed Recovery Rate you have to run a longer distance before you can turn around and fire. And eventually the maps will run out of space, because the maps are limited (They are not sandboxes). In many IE areas, the space is much larger (Take Dyrford Crossing for instance, and compare with Baldur's Gate wilderness, there's less space to run in).

In essence: It mitigates kiting, and makes less of an incentive to kite, but it doesn't prevent it. And, Sensuki is right. It mitigates movement and makes movement less of an incentive, but it doesn't prevent it.

However, there are more tools for movement (abilities and talents) whilst being in-combat than there are tools for kiting. I posted those here (this thread a couple of pages back), and those are meant to "break engagement" so that you can re-position, target something else, push enemies back, knock them down, stun them and more...

There are tons of incentives for allowing the Player (If they want to) to move around whilst being in combat engagement, there's few incentives for allowing the Player to kite "out of combat engagement".

Baiting is not the same thing as kiting.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/osffctes9j0vhtw/baiting.png?dl=0

Edited March 21, 2015 by Osvir

[Shevek]

Well said, Osvir

 

[Sensuki]

With Slowed Recovery Rate you have to run a longer distance before you can turn around and fire. And eventually the maps will run out of space, because the maps are limited (They are not sandboxes).

Yeah, it does make it take longer - however I was not arguing against ranged recovery specifically remember, I was arguing about the globally slowed recovery that also affects melee.

 

You will note that in my videos, I simply run around in circles I don't run across the map. Map size does not matter - terrain style does.

[Luckmann]

Also, if you insist on making a distinction between kiting and baiting, kiting is already practically a non-issue, and if you are truly dedicated to engaging in it, it actually does nothing to curtail it.

[Gairnulf]

So, I read the whole thread and I saw it stated that the slowed recovery (which is actually a modifier over another modifier for ranged characters, right?) is intended to make kiting more difficult.

 

I also saw that it doesn't achieve that purpose... So why keep the damned thing?!

 

I am honestly surprised to see Obsidian spending time and resources on coming up with, implementing, and testing mechanics like this, instead of addressing problems like the fog of war glitch - that looked really embarassing to me. I wonder what is the reasoning behind this decision. Coupled with engagement, this starts to resemble more and more a personal crusade against a certain style of playing. A very bad approach to take, that.

 

Finally, ignore the trolls. Just ignore them on sight. It's amazing the kind of fecal matter some people get away with on this forum.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

Finally, ignore the trolls. Just ignore them on sight. It's amazing the kind of fecal matter some people get away with on this forum.

As a person that knows his personal flaws and realizes that he may actually be more belligerent than he actually should be, I honestly prefer it to the alternative. I'll rather see some ****heads roam free than to see the rather arbitrary banhammer come down upon us all.

 

 

 

 

[Ondb]

The recovery timer stopping when moving was in the first backer beta back in August and has been in since afaik. Designed to prevent kiting in combat. 

Thanks

You have prevented kitting, pre-buffing, hard-counters for spells, summoning spells, and the list goes on...

 

Problem is that you made the combat super boring...you really do not see it ? Really ? 

[Shdy314]

They didn't prevent kiting. There are summoning spells. There are a few before combat things that buff you. 

[Hassat Hunter]

Unsurprisingly, I disagree on this with Sensuki aswell.

[Gairnulf]

Unsurprisingly, I disagree on this with Sensuki aswell.

Unless you're fixated on the person, I'm curious how you would explain that having two stacking penalties on the same value for recovery is even an barely ok.

[Hassat Hunter]

I just think that giving a penalty to recovery while moving is a good way to make combat tactically interesting (ie. moving has a cost, so decisions about placement and movements need more thinking).

 

Now I know that Sensuki disagrees and wants to remove tactical thinking, planning and execting in favour of unlimited movability, and that any crowd control by PLACEMENT rather than ability is a big no-no (lol), so it makes sense we disagree often about this particular way of thinking.

 

IE. I want movement to be a tactical decision rather than 'lol, because I can'. Movement during combat is boring if it can be done without any forethought what-so-ever, cheapening it.

 

That's just my way of seeing stuff though.

[crackwise]

So I've realized from lephys's arguments, that we have a much, much stronger statement.

 

We need to reduce kiting.   Kiting is essentially a ranged versus melee problem.    As we can see,  Sensuki can easily kite with a ranged character.  

 

What we need is to eliminate the reaction slow for melee characters, so they are more able to hit those scum, fleeing, kiting  errr...

 

does the AI kite?

 

Dang.

 

Actually enemies who are kiters CAN be a real pain in the ass, and it is very hard to fight them especially in a system where there is stamina. The most annoying enemies I have ever seen in a game are those bloody midgets in Diablo 2 which you see in the jungle from Act III. Yeah, those ones who shoot darts from blowpipes and then run away the instant you hit them. I might have aged like 2 years due to sheer frustration when trying to finish Act III, lol.

 

Back on topic: Kiting with ranged weapons is actually a legitimate tactic, and was done extensively in history by light skirmish troops to harass and loosen up enemy formations. (e.g. Roman era javelin throwers, medieval horse archers, gunpowder era dragoons etc.)  BUT in real life you cannot run around all the time, because you will eventually get winded and fatigued.

 

As Sensuki and others have also mentioned, the only way to prevent kiting is to introduce some stamina system, it may be too late for that now though. Actually, some of you may remember, I had been advocating two different combat movement types such as walking and running, even before the beta was released. Running would cost stamina and would risk engagement attacks. Walking would be slow repositioning without turning your back to your engaged target. We would have probably had much less trouble if such a system was chosen at the first place, I think.

Edited March 22, 2015 by crackwise

[Gairnulf]

How can movement be a tactical decision if the penalties are making it the worst course of action?

[Hassat Hunter]

By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.

[SomberSight]

By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.

Regarding your first point:

 

Disclaimer: I haven't tested any of the more recent beta builds, and have not familiarized myself with the intricacies of the recovery/engagement mechanics. However, I have an objection to make against the idea of "movement recovery".

 

When I'm in the middle of combat (regardless of game), I don't want my movement decisions (be it regarding angles of attack, range adjustments, management of cooldowns/health, blocking of enemies, or anything else) to be slanted toward remaining stationary: That is already the ideal state which allows for the highest DPS, and in a situation without risk of character death it's a complete non-decision. By penalizing moving, an open-ended action that could be made for any number of reasons, the amount of variation in combat interaction will indubitably shrink.

 

In general, mechanics that are introduced solely to compensate for the shortcomings of a game should never punish the player in any way: If you do, you are creating breeding ground for player resentment of the game. If, in addition to this, the mechanic is so obtuse and hard to identify that the player can conceivably interpret it as a bug, then it is just that in all but name.This appears to be such a mechanic: It can't hide behind any claim of authenticity, pacing, balance, or any other reason for being I can think of, and in the video provided in the OP I had to take the narrators word for what was going on, in spite of spending several hours with this game.

 

In short, I'm quite certain I will be bothered by this mechanic if it is at all noticeable.

 

By "auto-go-best stuff", I assume you're referring to kiting. That being the case, let me try to qualify the scenarios in which kiting would be beneficial:

1. Kiting as a melee character is currently impossible according to Sensuki, because of the engagement system.

2. Kiting vs an enemy that is faster than your own character is also futile regardless of weapon type.  (I'm assuming here that characters can actually attack opponents they've caught up to.)

3. Kiting versus an enemy with range can be self detrimental, depending on speed, range, damage, and attack rate discrepancy.(It should not be hard to create ranged creatures that are practically immune to kiting by adjusting these values)

4. Kiting in a scenario where you have another way of preventing your enemies from engaging you (e.g: melee tanks, terrain advantage, movement impeding abilities, etc) is suboptimal, due to lower DPS.

5. Kiting in a situation where the enemy has such an advantage on you is not likely to be an option.

 

So, in order for kiting to be the best course of action, you need a party consisting of mainly ranged characters, meeting up vs enemies whose speed/range/damage/attack rate values can be exploited, and who have no way of slowing you down. You also can't have a better way of preventing them from getting to you.  

 

I don't know about you, but to me kiting doesn't seem like a big issue at all.

[Sensuki]

Now I know that Sensuki disagrees and wants to remove tactical thinking, planning and execting in favour of unlimited movability, and that any crowd control by PLACEMENT rather than ability is a big no-no (lol), so it makes sense we disagree often about this particular way of thinking.

 

The only word I have to reply to that is "rofl [#]".

 

In all seriousness though this is a lie, because even with the No Engagement mod, positioning still matters just as much, you're just not punished by the game systems (rather than by the encounter itself) for changing it.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

IMO combat is all about making choices between pro's and con's of the moment. If there are no con's, it's not tactically interestingly to add, auto-go-best stuff is best to avoid to make an interesting system.

 

In order for there to be meaningful con's, there needs to be pro's.

 

There are virtually no pro's to moving in combat. There are only con's. Mobility is actively punished at all steps of the process.

 

Furthermore, as has been repeatedly established multiple times throughout the thread, the mechanic in question was instituted to prevent kiting.

 

If it fails at doing that, any discussion on it's potential virtues or detriments (the latter which far outweighs the former, and constitutes a "double-whammy" on movement, coupled with the pre-existing Engagement system) is purely academic. And it fails at that. Miserably.

 

If the mechanic cannot even fulfil it's most basic stated purpose, a purpose that it need not even fulfil (kiting would already be terrible, and it's not a widespread issue, and never was), keeping it is completely and utterly asinine.

[Gairnulf]

By making movement around the battlefield an actual choice with risk. You want the better ground, is it worth the trade-off, yes/no. Rather than just mindless 'yes, move'.

 

Movement around the battlefield is by definition a choice with risk. Because in every battle and in every one-to-one combat you are inevitably managing time and space. You don't need artificial penalties to moving, the penalties are already there. You sound like you haven't played the game, or any game of any genre, which includes similar combat. Or, like you're arguing for the sake of argument.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Killyox]

I must say I feel dumber for reading 8 pages of this thread. It is filled with so much bickering and useless crap that it's pretty sad. Too much OT arguments and insults instead of actual discussion. Sad really.

[wolfstriked]

Arguing is the human way to solve conflicts.All the bad talking is excused after they bicker it all out.Carry on!

[Hassat Hunter]

There are virtually no pro's to moving in combat. There are only con's. Mobility is actively punished at all steps of the process.

The pro is to gain an adventageous position

 

I *know* you agree with me that's a pro, otherwise you wouldn't have this discussion about making movement easier and less tactical demanding.

You wouldn't do that if movement was something you see as a non-issue, would you now?