SLOWED RECOVERY WHILE MOVING - NO THANKS

[mutonizer]

Well, mostly because mobility is very powerful as it allows quick re-positioning, going around the backline, escape, out maneuver and whatnot. A second delay for your next action after sprinting across the entire battlefield to get to that damn mage is not, in my book, that big a price to pay.

 

It's also not designed to punish mobile characters, but to make moving a choice with consequences/cost. Mobile characters are still mobile, that doesn't change. I said before, you cannot include moving as a price to pay for moving. You move because it matters and being able to do it faster/better than others is still a very good thing.

 

And I'm sorry but this is not LOL, DOTA2 or Warcraft 2 either, so we'll have to find some common ground. The difference is that I'm not pushing for anything, just looking at what they do and based on that, see if I like it or not. You seem to WANT to make it your way, which is a bit worrying to me if they start listening too much (other than bug reports of course) though that's of course personal preferences (and a bit late in dev. cycle). I'm not a backer though, so don't feel entitled whatsoever and can understand if you do, if you are a backer

 

Mutonizer thank you for admitting you just want to hurt mobile characters even though according to you this doesn't because you won't even feel it. That is a very coherent and logical argument.

I don't want anything though I do like stable combat more than IE style crazyness (big difference with Sensuki obviously). I'm just saying that this feels logical within what they're trying to do with combat. I don't care if they remove it or not though if they remove it, it might make combat too easy somehow even on PotD difficulty (no idea really). Really think this little issue has been blown out of proportion... Edited March 20, 2015 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

Well, mostly because mobility is very powerful as it allows quick re-positioning, going around the backline, escape, out maneuver and whatnot. A second delay for your next action after sprinting across the entire battlefield to get to that damn mage is not, in my book, that big a price to pay.

This is an AI and/or encounter/map design problem, and I do not believe in systems to compensate for rudimentary AI, or poor encounter design.

 

It's also not designed to punish mobile characters, but to make moving a choice with consequences/cost. Mobile characters are still mobile, that doesn't change. I said before, you cannot include moving as a price to pay for moving. You move because it matters and being able to do it faster/better than others is still a very good thing.

It's not designed to add choice/consequence for moving - Adam Brennecke specifically stated that they did it to try and prevent kiting, which the implementation objectively fails at - as did paused recovery. There is no way around it.

 

And I'm sorry but this is not LOL, DOTA2 or Warcraft 2 either, so we'll have to find some common ground. The difference is that I'm not pushing for anything, just looking at what they do and based on that, see if I like it or not. You seem to WANT to make it your way, which is a bit worrying to me if they start listening too much (other than bug reports of course) though that's of course personal preferences (and a bit late in dev. cycle). I'm not a backer though, so don't feel entitled whatsoever and can understand if you do, if you are a backer

I want it to play more like the Infinity Engine games - not Warcraft, DotA or LoL. That's not very hard to understand, and I think it's a VERY valid opinion to have on a game slated as an Infinity Engine style game.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[mutonizer]

It's not designed to add choice/consequence for moving - Adam Brennecke specifically stated that they did it to try and prevent kiting, which the implementation objectively fails at - as did paused recovery. There is no way around it.

Yea I know, just saying that's why I don't mind much, especially since it fits with the rest of what I think they're trying to do. But either way's fine with me, just hoping it won't make things too easy is all.

 

I want it to play more like the Infinity Engine games - not Warcraft, DotA or LoL. That's not very hard to understand, and I think it's a VERY valid opinion to have on a game slated as an Infinity Engine style game.

Yea, I know, and I want to be a BG/IWD like game, not an Infinity Engine like game. To "[..]pay homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past" can be taken differently by different people. I take it for look'n feel but really don't want the same combat mechanics, you take it differently and want that RTS feeling you described before in combat.

 

And I didn't say it wasn't valid and totally respect what you want and like, just saying that because you're very vocal about what you want and that I'm not (I mean I comment but don't campaign), it's something worrying (well, somewhat) as I kinda like the way it is now as a whole and would not enjoy it as much if they reverted to what you want. I mean, I'm having kind of blast with combat in BB480.

Edited March 20, 2015 by mutonizer

[Sensuki]

I can send you a modified assembly if you want to see the difference ?

[mutonizer]

I can send you a modified assembly if you want to see the difference ?

Nah thanks it's cool, don't really care about it really as I said.. Either they change it, or they don't. Only way to notice would be to micro so much that you notice your guys doing something half a second/second before they would otherwise, which I don't care about nor want to care about.

Edited March 20, 2015 by mutonizer

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I mean, I'm having kind of blast with combat in BB480.

 

Ditto! It actually reminds me of NWN2 combat much more now, where you don't have to baby-sit your characters too much. Like Shevek's vids, I'm dealing with encounters in a more relaxed manner with no super-microing, that is, I don't play it like I would do in an RTS.

 

Sensuki: Recall when we discussed combat back in the fall, and you were worried about PoE's combat turning more and more into NWN2's (less movement, and kind of turn-based in a sense), and I was increasingly satisified about that. Guess who looks to be getting the short straw?    

Edited March 20, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Striped_Wolf]

The ability to kite a whole bunch of enemies while the rest of the party mows them down unhindered is the glaring issue here. Devs, please adress this.
The Recovery slowdown doesnt solve anything since the kiter doesnt need to attack. The problem is with the AI, and could possibly be solved in a quick fix by making unengaged enemies reevaluate targets every few seconds.
 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[IndiraLightfoot]

Striped_Wolf: Yeah, the AI could certainly improve in that department.

Edited March 20, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Luckmann]

I just realized I fell asleep reading this thread last night holding a can of coke, and woke up with it spilled all over me. Cool.

 

Btw if it's not removed - not a huge deal for me, we'll be modding out out though for anyone interested.

It's a big deal for me because I hate the dumb.

 

Sorry, the recovery is at half speed while moving now (it did used to be paused), but again, this has been in for as long as I can remember, and is to make kiting difficult.

But we've already established that not only is it redundant and unnecessary, but it doesn't actually perform that function at all.

 

Well he did say "more difficult", not impossible. Having to take talents and whatnot is their definition of "more difficult" I suppose. That said, I agree that it's ridiculous to try to fight against people who want to kite mobs. The extremes you'll have to reach to achieve that will ruin the experience for everyone else.

 

So it's not big deal with people who kite, and it's no big deal for people who don't. What was the problem again?

 

It appears to be much of a design ideal of Sawyers that it is more important to restrict potential exploits, no matter how prevalent or powerful, than it is to expand upon available viable options. It is very puzzling. Much like you say, it is ridiculous to try to fight against people that will kite, simply because to really prevent kiting (which isn't a problem already) you would have to introduce (in the end extreme) mechanics that would ruin or hurt the experience for everyone else.

 

Just like this.

 

By zealously hunting potential "exploits" or other phantom ghosts and boogeymen, there's now yet another mechanic that restricts options and removes tactical depth.

 

The fact that you, personally, haven't "noticed" this does really nothing to diminish this fact. If I piss in the tank of your car, it's performance would suffer, but you would probably not notice. Does that make that alright? Of course not. You'd be just as angry when you found out.

[Sensuki]

If you want to prevent kiting, you don't need Engagement or Recovery slow, you just have units slow down after period of time running in combat. That's how it's done in Total War.

 

It's also how sprint features are handled in games like Call of Duty, you can only sprint for a certain amount of time before the sprint runs out and then it needs time to recharge before you can do it again.

 

That's a much better way to solve kiting than silly systems like this.

 

Personally I don't really care about it at all because I don't intend to kite, simply because it's not fun. I do care about things implemented to prevent kiting that make the standard gameplay feel worse though.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[mutonizer]

The ability to kite a whole bunch of enemies while the rest of the party mows them down unhindered is the glaring issue here. Devs, please adress this.

The Recovery slowdown doesnt solve anything since the kiter doesnt need to attack. The problem is with the AI, and could possibly be solved in a quick fix by making unengaged enemies reevaluate targets every few seconds.

Why would even try, apart from it being a derivative of other mechanics or overall AI improvement (which won't solve everything either, encounter design is very important). You CANNOT fight against people who just want to cheese everything, nor should you. This isn't a competitive game, it's a single player cRPG.

If it's a bug, then yea, fix it, but if someone wants to make a team of fast running gun wielding one shotting rogues, let them! If they want to run with 6 druids and insta gib everything then run back to the inn after every fight, let them. They'll have fun doing it and it won't affect people who don't want to do it.

 

The only thing they should focus on is doing what they want as part of their overall vision for the game, the way they want to do it (and fix bug obviously), not trying to prevent people from finding abuses in their system.

 

That's a much better way to solve kiting than silly systems like this.

Yea, we can go wild with that.

I'd go for simple walk/run stance modal personally. Walking is slow but doesn't trigger engagement or bring any penalty whatsoever (can keep swinging, shooting, etc as well) while Running brings heavy ACC/DEF penalties (and maybe REF boost) for a time (but you can keep swinging and shooting, just really hard to hit), which will slowly disappear after you stop Running for a couple seconds.

Edited March 20, 2015 by mutonizer

[Striped_Wolf]

 

The ability to kite a whole bunch of enemies while the rest of the party mows them down unhindered is the glaring issue here. Devs, please adress this.

The Recovery slowdown doesnt solve anything since the kiter doesnt need to attack. The problem is with the AI, and could possibly be solved in a quick fix by making unengaged enemies reevaluate targets every few seconds.

Why would even try, apart from it being a derivative of other mechanics or overall AI improvement (which won't solve everything either, encounter design is very important). You CANNOT fight against people who just want to cheese everything, nor should you. This isn't a competitive game, it's a single player cRPG.

If it's a bug, then yea, fix it, but if someone wants to make a team of fast running gun wielding one shotting rogues, let them! If they want to run with 6 druids and insta gib everything then run back to the inn after every fight, let them. They'll have fun doing it and it won't affect people who don't want to do it.

 

The only thing they should focus on is doing what they want as part of their overall vision for the game, the way they want to do it (and fix bug obviously), not trying to prevent people from finding abuses in their system.

 

 

Well, sure. But if the AI could be made more interesting (and less like space invaders) with an easy fix I dont see why not. Interesting encounters are more fun to me. But it also affects immersion, which is important in a game like this. 

 

Noone is asking for self aware super AI. Simply minor adjustments to make the game experience better, while solving some issues/exploits in the process.

 

 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Sensuki]

The AI shouldn't run back like that in the Fog of War IMO because it breaks the combat state and you can just keep spamming per-encounters.

[Osvir]

Just thought of throwing this in here, mobile abilities+build inspiration:

Talents:

- Graceful Retreat
- Fast Runner

Barbarian:
- Wild Sprint
- Powerful Sprint

Chanter:
- The Thunder Rolled like Waves on Black Seas

- The Lover Cried out to the Beloved, "I am Yours!"

- At the Sound of His Voice, the Killers Froze Stiff 

Cipher:

- Tenuous Grasp

- Whisper of Treason

- Mind Wave

- Amplified Thrust

- Mind Blades

- Mental Binding

 

+many more

Druid:

- Charm Beast

- Winter Wind

- Hold Beasts

- Returning Storm

- Calling the World's Maw

- Overwhelming Wave

- Relentless Storm

 

Fighter:
- Knockdown
- Bonus Knockdown Talent

 

Monk:

- Long Stride
- Force of Anguish
- Stunning Blow
- Flagellant's Path

Paladin:
- Zealous Charge
- Liberating Exhortion

Priest:
- Aggrandizing Radiance
- Halt

- Repulsing Seal
- Pillar of Faith
- Baring Death's Door

 

+ Lots of Healing (If you suffer a disengagement attack) and buffs to lessen damage/chance of disengagement attack and debuffs as well.

Ranger:
- Takedown
- Binding Roots
- Master's Call
- Brutal Takedown

Rogue:
- Escape
- Shadowing Beyond
- Adept Evasion
- Coordinated Positioning

Wizard:

- Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights
- Slicken
- Fleet Feet
- Wizard's Double
- Bewildering Spectacle
- Fetid Caress
- Binding Web
- Ardous Delay of Motion

And many more (I only got to early 3rd Level Spells).

I skipped some, and probably missed some (Intentional). This is just to give some inspiration to mobile/disengagement builds

Edited March 20, 2015 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

Not relevant to slowing recovery time though.

[Striped_Wolf]

And not relevant to the otherwise easily plugged holes in the AI

Edited March 20, 2015 by Striped_Wolf

[Osvir]

Not relevant to slowing recovery time though.

It is related to moving around. If Slow Recovery Rate is a penalty on moving around, then knocking down an enemy is definitely a Grandia-style advantageous tactic to "push" back the opponents "Active Time Bar" or "Turn" and you will be able to...:

 

A) ... re-position.

B) ... use abilities.

C) ... take several turns/actions (Ex. if both enemy and player attacks attacks every 1 turn, using Knockdown or similar allows the player to get, say, 3 turns for 1 enemy turn)

 

Enemies get a Very Long Recovery Rate (E.g. Prone Effect Duration+Their Recovery Rate), and the Player gets a Slowed Recovery Rate. Sounds like more than a fair trade to be honest.

 

And not relevant to the otherwise easily plugged holes in the AI

 

These are "Prone, Stun, Paralyzed, Dominated, Confused, Knockback etc." effects, in the list I wrote up. Some of them single target, some of them AoE. I can agree that an AI could be tuned to dodge the AoE but that's pretty much it, some would still be hit by it unless you buffed the AI immensely to be able to always dodge, or the Player is bad/unskilled at targeting (a.k.a. not good design).

Edited March 20, 2015 by Osvir

[Luckmann]

And not relevant to the otherwise easily plugged holes in the AI

 

Striped wolf, whenever I just skim through something and see your avatar at the corner of my eye, this is what I see.

 

 

I felt an unyielding urge to inform you of this.

[Sensuki]

It is related to moving around. If Slow Recovery Rate is a penalty on moving around, then knocking down an enemy is definitely a Grandia-style advantageous tactic to "push" back the opponents "Active Time Bar" or "Turn" and you will be able to...:

 

A) ... re-position.

B) ... use abilities

Enemies get a Very Long Recovery Rate, and the Player gets a Slowed Recovery Rate.

How is this related to you being slowed when moving? What you just said is exactly the same if movement was or was not slowed, and you will note that Adam said they did it just to prevent kiting - and it fails at that.

[Osvir]

Nope. You'd get 4 or 5 turns/actions for 1 enemy turn with the same Disengagement Tactic example without the Slowed Recovery Time penalty (that is, if you want to move around).

I can agree that it wouldn't change/no difference if you just stood still (with or without movement penalty), but that's what you don't want to do...?
 

 

So it's not big deal with people who kite, and it's no big deal for people who don't. What was the problem again?

It hurts mobile characters in legitimate gameplay. I will make videos.

 

Right?

EDIT: Simplified examples:
Say you got 8 actions by standing still, and 6 actions by moving around a lot (-25%), during the same amount of time. Enemies get the same treatment.

Now, let's say the Prone Duration is 4 actions (half the time). You can either take those 4 actions standing still, or run away and take 3 actions (-25%). It prevents kiting. During the Prone Duration, the enemy can take 0 actions. You lost 1 action, the enemy lost 4 actions.

*shrug*

In Turn-Based, you could see Prone, Stun, Paralyze etc. as: You get 2 turns and the enemy gets 1 turn. Without the Slowed Recovery rate, you'd get 3 turns for 1 turn.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Osvir

[Messier-31]

Well, for anyone like me and veevoir, we can simply remove that code, no problem but I honestly am baffled at the decision to be honest. 

 

You did try removing and it worked?

[Sensuki]

Yeah man (Bester did), do you want the modified assembly ?

[Messier-31]

Thanks mate, but I'm not a beta backer, so I'm waiting untill March 26th. If it will be an issue then AND my 32-bit OS runs the game properly, then I'll ask.

[Namutree]

This mechanic is a bad addition and also a noob trap.

 

Noobie player: Man, my rogue's attacks are takin' forever; why are the rogues so friggin' slow to attack again? *doesn't know that moving his rogue in combat is wrecking his DPS.*

 

Noobie: Rogues SUCK!!! This game's classes are imbalanced, my wizard has better attack speed than my crappy, slow, and useless rogue. *The noob dies because he moves too much in combat which wrecks his DPS.*

 

Noobie: This game is so confusing! This sucks! *rage quits*

 

I suggest this mechanic is taken out.

 

Let's keep in mind that the game has no indicator that movement slows recovery time. Noobs will not understand why it's happening. Between this and engagement; noobs are in for a baaaad time.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Namutree

[JohnnySideburns]

Just thought of throwing this in here, mobile abilities+build inspiration:

 

Talents:

- Graceful Retreat

- Fast Runner

 

Barbarian:

- Wild Sprint

- Powerful Sprint

 

Chanter:

- The Thunder Rolled like Waves on Black Seas

- The Lover Cried out to the Beloved, "I am Yours!"

- At the Sound of His Voice, the Killers Froze Stiff 

 

Cipher:

- Tenuous Grasp

- Whisper of Treason

- Mind Wave

- Amplified Thrust

- Mind Blades

- Mental Binding

 

+many more

 

Druid:

- Charm Beast

- Winter Wind

- Hold Beasts

- Returning Storm

- Calling the World's Maw

- Overwhelming Wave

- Relentless Storm

 

Fighter:

- Knockdown

- Bonus Knockdown Talent

 

Monk:

- Long Stride

- Force of Anguish

- Stunning Blow

- Flagellant's Path

 

Paladin:

- Zealous Charge

- Liberating Exhortion

 

Priest:

- Aggrandizing Radiance

- Halt

- Repulsing Seal

- Pillar of Faith

- Baring Death's Door

 

+ Lots of Healing (If you suffer a disengagement attack) and buffs to lessen damage/chance of disengagement attack and debuffs as well.

 

Ranger:

- Takedown

- Binding Roots

- Master's Call

- Brutal Takedown

 

Rogue:

- Escape

- Shadowing Beyond

- Adept Evasion

- Coordinated Positioning

 

Wizard:

- Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights

- Slicken

- Fleet Feet

- Wizard's Double

- Bewildering Spectacle

- Fetid Caress

- Binding Web

- Ardous Delay of Motion

 

And many more (I only got to early 3rd Level Spells).

 

I skipped some, and probably missed some (Intentional). This is just to give some inspiration to mobile/disengagement builds

 

"rogue -adept evasion"

...this ability does nothing, I don't know what you think it does, since you mentioned it your long list, but it does nothing. Well it does something but it is so close to zero it should be disregarded. It most definitely does nothing regarding to mobility and disengagement, unless I have misunderstood something and disengagement attacks target reflexes.