Consumables Overpowered. And enemies won't use them.

[Bazy]

1. Healing Potions are overpowered:

-Potions of regeneration heal for 120 and 150 over 10 seconds. Increased Duration by survival. This is way too much 

-Potions of endurance heal for 50 and 100. This is way too much. 

-As comparison: Per Rest Priest heal =12 (48 toal potential healing per rest), Level 1 Endurance potions 50 health (120 usable per Fight per Party) (6000 total potential healing per fight)

 

2. Potions are spammable:

-You can drink +100 endurance potions almost as fast as you can click the button. This is almost to the level of absurdity of Skyrim's Pause + eat 1000 cheese wheels to full health. 

-Insta heal potions should be completely removed from the game. The only ones allowed should be healing over time. 

 

 

3. Scrolls have the same issues

-For a really good time give each member of your party a stack of +33 AOE healing scrolls. Way too overpowered. 

-You can craft scrolls... without the ability to even use them.

-Personally, I see no benefit to scrolls as a gameplay mechanic. These craftable items are more powerful than high level abilities. 

 

 

3. Enemies are too stupid to Drink. Eat. Sleep at inns. Enchant Weapons or Armor. Or Use life saving Potions and Scrolls: 

-This is one of those things that should be a basic in every game, but always seem to require mods. Generally if your character can do it, the enemy should be able to. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bazy

[drunetovich]

Enemies are just an exp food for your swords and fireballs, their only function is to die by your hand, so no reason to make them anything more than a paper doll decorations of the dungeons.

[archangel979]

Well the things enemies could use are already counted into their stats. All but consumable items like potions or scrolls.

[Endrosz]

Enemies are just an exp food for your swords and fireballs, their only function is to die by your hand, so no reason to make them anything more than a paper doll decorations of the dungeons.

 

Adventurers are just an exp food for our claws and breath weapons, their only function is to die by our hand, so no reason to make them anything more than a paper doll decorations of the inns.

 

Sincerely,

The Monsters

 

(I remember my first low-level AD&Đ adventure with an experienced Dungeon Master at the helm. It was difficult, and we found no magical treasure at all, and we all complained about it. He said: "Well, there was healing potion and a wand with 2 charges on the orc shaman. He used them both when appropriate, that was the magical treasure." Lesson learned.)

Edited February 9, 2015 by Endrosz

[Osvir]

1. Healing Potions are overpowered:

-Potions of regeneration heal for 120 and 150 over 10 seconds. Increased Duration by survival. This is way too much 

-Potions of endurance heal for 50 and 100. This is way too much. 

-As comparison: Per Rest Priest heal =12 (48 toal potential healing per rest), Level 1 Endurance potions 50 health (120 usable per Fight per Party) (6000 total potential healing per fight)

 

2. Potions are spammable:

-You can drink +100 endurance potions almost as fast as you can click the button. This is almost to the level of absurdity of Skyrim's Pause + eat 1000 cheese wheels to full health. 

-Insta heal potions should be completely removed from the game. The only ones allowed should be healing over time. 

 

 

3. Scrolls have the same issues

-For a really good time give each member of your party a stack of +33 AOE healing scrolls. Way too overpowered. 

-You can craft scrolls... without the ability to even use them.

-Personally, I see no benefit to scrolls as a gameplay mechanic. These craftable items are more powerful than high level abilities. 

 

 

4. Enemies are too stupid to Drink. Eat. Sleep at inns. Enchant Weapons or Armor. Or Use life saving Potions and Scrolls: 

-This is one of those things that should be a basic in every game, but always seem to require mods. Generally if your character can do it, the enemy should be able to. 

1- Recovery Time. Often times (just like in the IE games) drinking a potion is risky, because you stop doing whatever you were doing, stand still for a bit, then drink the potion. You're gonna have to time them. My characters have been knocked out so many times from using potions, or my Priest getting knocked out when casting a spell (and panic follows).

 

2- Hm? That's odd. I haven't noticed Potions being spammable or even instant cast/instant use. They always take a lot of time... maybe with a character with pumped up Dexterity (Action Speed) and items towards Action Speed.

 

3- Scrolls are amazing. If you have a party without a Priest or without a Wizard, Chanter, Druid or any spellcaster... say, maybe you want a Magical Monk or a Spellflinging Rogue? Scrolls! Scrolls allow the non-magical classes to be built into magical classes. Scrolls allows you to build a Red Mage (Wizard+Priest Scrolls, or a Priest with Wizard Scrolls).

 

4- This I agree with regarding some enemies (Rival Adventuring Parties for instance) might be chugging potions, use scrolls, have enchanted armor/weapon, rest bonuses and so on. Groups such as Medreth, Nyfre or the Adventuring Party by the Egg. Then again......

 

- Medreth might not have rest bonuses, why? He's camping outside (And camping outside doesn't give rest bonuses)

- Nyfre is staying at the Inn, but is paranoid and might not have gotten any rest whatsoever. Or she's fully rested and has bonuses.

- Adventuring Party = Adventures and thus rests outside.

 

Resting bonuses would, in other words, only apply to specific groups of NPC's where it would make sense~ Nyfre, for instance, would make most sense.

 

The Skaen Cultists are thrash mobs, and don't need resting bonuses, and only a few of them could have scrolls or potions. Ultimately, I'd want Obsidian to balance the encounters for vanilla release though, and this sort of adjustment or patching might fit best in a mod (WRE = Well Rested Enemies Mod). I think it would require lots and lots of work to go into each encounter and/or enemy types and add bonuses and balance to it all.

[Gfted1]

I really need to check out the latest beta. There are now potions and scrolls to replenish Health? HALLELUJAH! This may be the best news Ive heard about the game yet. Have Healing spells been added too?

[Osvir]

I really need to check out the latest beta. There are now potions and scrolls to replenish Health? HALLELUJAH! This may be the best news Ive heard about the game yet. Have Healing spells been added too?

Endurance.

[Gfted1]

 

I really need to check out the latest beta. There are now potions and scrolls to replenish Health? HALLELUJAH! This may be the best news Ive heard about the game yet. Have Healing spells been added too?

Endurance.

 

 

Oh. I am disappoint.

 

Whats the difference how much Endurance we can heal when Health is always going down per hit? Even at 100%, sooner or later it doesn't matter how much Endurance you have when the next hit will wipe out your remaining Health and kill you.

[Osvir]

Obsidian did a big Lore Update about Life & Death in Eora, or at the very least in the Dyrwood/Palatinate (So the Health dealio should make sense by now... no?). Who knows, maybe developments in the lands for expansions or future sequels in the world there's a Gifted Scientist who finds a way to restore flesh wounds and broken bones with the magic found in Eora.

Thematic Narrative overrides Mechanical Gameplay, imo.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

Who knows, maybe developments in the lands for expansions or future sequels in the world there's a Gifted Scientist who finds a way to restore flesh wounds and broken bones with the magic found in Eora.

Fingers and toes crossed!

 

Thematic Narrative overrides Mechanical Gameplay, imo.

Meh, fun overrides Thematic Narrative, imo. No worries though, this issue is already fixed for me. I was just momentarily excited that maybe Obs had added in Healing.

[AndreaColombo]

Amen to "if your characters can do it, enemies should too". Big time.

 

And +1000 to the fact it should be basic in every game, rather than rely on mods.

[Osvir]

Thematic Narrative overrides Mechanical Gameplay, imo.

Meh, fun overrides Thematic Narrative, imo. No worries though, this issue is already fixed for me. I was just momentarily excited that maybe Obs had added in Healing.

This boils down to differing design ideology discussion that I'm not going into here.

 

But! I am curious, and asking a bit of an impossible question to answer but still: Imagine the system being exactly the same as it is now, but "Health" is called something else (Let's say.... "Mortality", or better, "Exhaustion" or "Fatigue", because the only way to heal "Health" is by Resting) and "Endurance" would be called "Health", thus, all the "Cure Endurance" spells would have been "Cure Health" spells.... would you have been as bothered/disappointed as you are about "No Healing"?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Osvir

[Gfted1]

But! I am curious, and asking a bit of an impossible question to answer but still: Imagine the system being exactly the same as it is now, but "Health" is called something else (Let's say.... Mortality) and "Endurance" would be called "Health", thus, all the "Cure Endurance" spells would have been "Cure Health" spells.... would you have been as bothered/disappointed as you are about "No Healing"?

Im not bother by what they are called, I was bothered by how the mechanic functioned. Regardless of Endurance level you can die in one hit from low Health. Originally you could only rest at specific predetermined locations dotting the game world. Now you can (mostly) Camp wherever you want so its not a huge deal. Also, just fire up Sensuki's handy dandy unlimited Camping supplies and Ill be able to rest after every battle without the hassle of only being able to carry supplies at a time. I guess the biggest issue is not being able to Heal mid-battle but Im hoping my brute-force-always-full-strength-party will at least be able to make it through one battle at a time and then I can immediately Heal (Camp) after.

[Namutree]

I really need to check out the latest beta. There are now potions and scrolls to replenish Health? HALLELUJAH! This may be the best news Ive heard about the game yet. Have Healing spells been added too?

There are abilities that restore health now.

[Bazy]

 

I really need to check out the latest beta. There are now potions and scrolls to replenish Health? HALLELUJAH! This may be the best news Ive heard about the game yet. Have Healing spells been added too?

Triage and Bind Wound both heal Health. 

[Bazy]

1- Recovery Time. Often times (just like in the IE games) drinking a potion is risky, because you stop doing whatever you were doing, stand still for a bit, then drink the potion. You're gonna have to time them. My characters have been knocked out so many times from using potions, or my Priest getting knocked out when casting a spell (and panic follows).

2- Hm? That's odd. I haven't noticed Potions being spammable or even instant cast/instant use. They always take a lot of time... maybe with a character with pumped up Dexterity (Action Speed) and items towards Action Speed.

 

3- Scrolls are amazing. If you have a party without a Priest or without a Wizard, Chanter, Druid or any spellcaster... say, maybe you want a Magical Monk or a Spellflinging Rogue? Scrolls! Scrolls allow the non-magical classes to be built into magical classes. Scrolls allows you to build a Red Mage (Wizard+Priest Scrolls, or a Priest with Wizard Scrolls).

1/2. Recovery time: They are pretty spammable. And when they health for more than 100% of your endurance you only need one so often. 

 

3. That's cool that scrolls allow variety. I'm not sure that makes sense thematically from reading it off some random piece of paper anyone can craft. But the larger issue is that these scrolls that off-classes can use are MORE POWERFUL than abilities of the base class. 

 

As it stands you have much greater chance of success in battle by bringing scrolls and potions than by bringing party members. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bazy

[Namutree]

Consumables are better in PoE than in most RPGs, but they're more expensive too. Still, a slight nerf is in order. You should also keep in mind that thanks to engagement pc's can't just move away when they're injured.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Namutree

[MReed]

I suspect that consumables are deliberately overpowered -- to encourage folks to use them, rather than hoard them, which is certainly a chronic problem that I (personally) have in all but a few RPGs.  I don't think it is just me, either.

 

On the AI front:  In both the IE games and the Aurora (NWN) games, creatures can only use consumables if they are specifically scripted to do so -- and, even then, they aren't really using them.  Instead, the script checks for the presence of an item in inventory (e.g. "minor_endurance_potion"), applies the appropriate effect ("minor_heal") and then deletes the item.  This is a pain in the neck to implement, especially when you realize that neither of these games allow a script to call a different script (much less a function or the like), so if you have 100 AI scripts, your "use consumables" code has to be copied and pasted to each and every one.  And if you change the effect that is associated with a consumable you have to update all the scripts...    Don't forget, that items that are dropped when the enemy is killed aren't  generated until the enemy is actually killed, and therefore aren't available to be consumed, so...  I'd be surprised if this changes, but it would be a nice change.

 

Obviously, items that cast spells should only be craftable if someone in the party can cast the spell in question -- but it seems reasonable that the crafter and the spellcaster might be different people.  If it doesn't work this way then this should change.  On the other hand, given a party of 6 and assuming a normal distribution, it would be rare to want to craft a scroll where nobody in the party has the ability to cast the spell, so maybe it does work this way, and it i just isn't obvious.

[forgottenlor]

I suspect that consumables are deliberately overpowered -- to encourage folks to use them, rather than hoard them, which is certainly a chronic problem that I (personally) have in all but a few RPGs.  I don't think it is just me, either.

 

On the AI front:  In both the IE games and the Aurora (NWN) games, creatures can only use consumables if they are specifically scripted to do so -- and, even then, they aren't really using them.  Instead, the script checks for the presence of an item in inventory (e.g. "minor_endurance_potion"), applies the appropriate effect ("minor_heal") and then deletes the item.  This is a pain in the neck to implement, especially when you realize that neither of these games allow a script to call a different script (much less a function or the like), so if you have 100 AI scripts, your "use consumables" code has to be copied and pasted to each and every one.  And if you change the effect that is associated with a consumable you have to update all the scripts...    Don't forget, that items that are dropped when the enemy is killed aren't  generated until the enemy is actually killed, and therefore aren't available to be consumed, so...  I'd be surprised if this changes, but it would be a nice change.

 

Obviously, items that cast spells should only be craftable if someone in the party can cast the spell in question -- but it seems reasonable that the crafter and the spellcaster might be different people.  If it doesn't work this way then this should change.  On the other hand, given a party of 6 and assuming a normal distribution, it would be rare to want to craft a scroll where nobody in the party has the ability to cast the spell, so maybe it does work this way, and it i just isn't obvious.

 

I have no problem if consumable are powerful, provided they are priced to reflect this. It would be ridiculous though if consumables are constantly being used in place of abilities.

[Osvir]

I suspect that consumables are deliberately overpowered -- to encourage folks to use them, rather than hoard them, which is certainly a chronic problem that I (personally) have in all but a few RPGs.  I don't think it is just me, either.

Nothing wrong with them being overpowered but, I think they could give a penalty, "Potion Sickness" if chugging too many in a row and might give other penalty effects if continuing. Scrolls could have a "Scroll Fever" effect, if using too many in a row by a non-magic class will cause it to become Wild Magic.

 

In comparison to a Wizard with 4/4 Spell Casts on Level 1, a non-magic Class (Fighter) could perhaps cast 2/2 Scrolls, and everything below 0/2 (-1/2, -2/2) would cumulatively increase RNG of disaster (Wild Magic).

 

Hm, would Wizards & Priests be more interesting if you could cast magic below 0/4? (Infinite spells, but riskier with time) -1/4 could decrease "Chance of Success" (cast wrong spell, backfire in face etc.) by like 50%, and -2/4 to 75% etc.

 

Expansive thoughts/brainstorm~

[Sensuki]

It's pretty dumb though when a consumable heals you for full endurance and a high level healing spell heals for piss all.

[Whipstitch]

I feel like "overpowered" has lost a lot of its meaning if people are going to seriously argue that it's an OK thing for tactics to be. Also, combining incredible efficacy with low availability/high opportunity costs would promote hoarding, not discourage it. Even people who treat their items as just another tool rather than trophies aren't likely to blow their megalixirs on random encounters if they're pretty sure they won't be able to replace them for the next boss fight. It's a fun bit of kismet that there's a poster with a Geralt avatar just above me because the Witcher series is a much better example of how to create conditions that promote the regular use of powerful and ostensibly limited items without making the entire experience a cake walk. Of course, whether that sort of approach is a good thematic fit for Pillars is an open question, since part of the Witcher's solution to the problem is to present alchemy and being hopped up on werewolf mutagen as one of your primary specialties rather than a rarely mentioned emergency button.

[Sock]

Scroll of Paralyze. The best thing ever.

 

They are very powerful, but we also don't know how common they will be. If they're sufficiently rare, I see no problem with it. Either they're powerful and rare, which means they're used in "oh ****!" situations, which is great IMO. If they're powerful and common, that's when it's a problem. If they're weak, regardless of rarity, then what's the point? I'm the kind of guy who rarely relies on consumables, but if I use them then I want them to have a big impact.

[Sensuki]

There may only be a few of them in the game though.

[Bazy]

I suspect that consumables are deliberately overpowered -- to encourage folks to use them, rather than hoard them, which is certainly a chronic problem that I (personally) have in all but a few RPGs.  I don't think it is just me, either.

 

On the AI front:   I'd be surprised if this changes, but it would be a nice change.

 

it would be rare to want to craft a scroll where nobody in the party has the ability to cast the spell, so maybe it does work this way, and it i just isn't obvious.

-Having an instant full heal or potions/scrolls be more powerful than what another party member can bring is a good solution to hoarding. I think a better solution would be to just limit the numbers of potions you can use in a fight. But still in a world where "healing magic is rare" is thematically and mechanically out of place. 

 

You can carry up to 20 scrolls. Most classes don't have that many per rest abilites at max level. 

 

 

-Presumably being able to craft a scroll would be harder than to actually use it. Just cause I can play a guitar doesn't mean I should be able to build one. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bazy