435 Discussion

[Luckmann]

Don't discount the need for certain attributes to make dialogue choices, you need high resolve to convince people of things for example.

 

That's irrelevant when balancing their combat stats. Balancing Attributes for dialogue is done by the Narrative Designers. They are completely separate systems.

 

Yes, and I realize that for you (Sensuki) it's all about the balance and the combat aspects, but it'd be nice if there was some semblance of relevance between the mechanics and the narrative. I personally want to play a high-Resolve/Dexterity character for the roleplaying aspect, and I would prefer it if the mechanical bonuses garnered from that would at least revolve around their narrative/immersive aspect and not be completely and utterly useless for me, mechanically.

[Luckmann]

I get it for the AoE or Duration increase. For casters (and other classes too) - those are the exact things you want behind Accuracy.

 

And the fact that those are the exact things one wants behind Accuracy is actually exactly why I don't want it on the same Attribute.

 

Didn't you take this numbers from character creation screen? Or do you have some future info?

 

I think, in the beginning of beta there was a report (and recognition?) of inconsistent descriptions:

Char. creation lists that Int gives +1 Will per point above 10, but in game on char sheet you can see +2 Will, consistently with other attributes. After targeting Will defence of BB Priest, I tough that it's obvious that +2 Will modifier is the correct one in BBv435...

 

But now, this discussion is so confusing, shorting my circuits.

I pulled it straight from the character creation screen. That said, unless I see a developer comment on it, I'll assume that that is the intended bonus and the fact that it's +2 in-game (I haven't checked) is the error, because I really think that the reason they now list the bonus to Will/Reflex/Fortitude at all is because it was changed.

[Luckmann]

that is exactly why people ignored wisdom when they played ps:t their firstest time. no "mag. def. adj." for high wisdom in the ie games and you couldn't play a cleric, so why boost wisdom? 

 

am doubting obsidian does anything so oblique with attributes, but am thinking it would be a bit foolish to complete discount the gameplay impact o' attributes outside o' combat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: weird auto-correct on spelling

The problem really is that we have no idea what narrative effects the Attributes will have, so it's all really a moot point. We can't discuss possible narrative effects and the narrative pros and cons of certain Attributes because we don't know the narrative. All we know is really the mechanical aspects, so that's why we discuss them.

 

Until release, the narrative aspect of Attributes exists in a Schrödinger's Game state. It's interesting to guess about, but honestly we have no clue until we play it, so we have to assume that the narrative design is both terrible and/or glorious. We can't affect it in any meaningful way. And if we try, we might kill a cat or something, I don't know, I'm not good at metaphors.

[illathid]

Intterupt isn't exactly a offensive stat, I'd say it more along the lines of an active defense.  Sucessfuly interrupting an enemy lowers thier DPS, and (when it gets fixed) breaks engagement.

[Luckmann]

Intterupt isn't exactly a offensive stat, I'd say it more along the lines of an active defense.  Sucessfuly interrupting an enemy lowers thier DPS, and (when it gets fixed) breaks engagement.

 

It's Offensive in that it forces itself on an enemy, and has an offensive effect. You could argue that any offence is "active defence", in that killing someone means they can't hurt you. Which is exactly why Offence almost always is more important and has a bigger impact than Defence.

 

It is offensive when it deals with the enemy, whether it hurts the enemy, disables them, or interrupts them. It is defensive when it deals with yourself, protection you from the offence of the enemies. Interrupt is the offence to which Concentration is the defence.

 

I'm not arguing with you, really, I'm just making the offence/defence definitions as I used them clear. Your point can basically be summarised into the adage "The best defence is a good offence", and I completely agree, which is my entire point.

[Gromnir]

 

that is exactly why people ignored wisdom when they played ps:t their firstest time. no "mag. def. adj." for high wisdom in the ie games and you couldn't play a cleric, so why boost wisdom? 

 

am doubting obsidian does anything so oblique with attributes, but am thinking it would be a bit foolish to complete discount the gameplay impact o' attributes outside o' combat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: weird auto-correct on spelling

The problem really is that we have no idea what narrative effects the Attributes will have, so it's all really a moot point. We can't discuss possible narrative effects and the narrative pros and cons of certain Attributes because we don't know the narrative. All we know is really the mechanical aspects, so that's why we discuss them.

 

Until release, the narrative aspect of Attributes exists in a Schrödinger's Game state. It's interesting to guess about, but honestly we have no clue until we play it, so we have to assume that the narrative design is both terrible and/or glorious. We can't affect it in any meaningful way. And if we try, we might kill a cat or something, I don't know, I'm not good at metaphors.

 

the fact that we do not and cannot know the relative importance of attributes beyond combat does not in any way diminish or increase the eventual importance o' such attributes.  we are indeed left making educated and uneducated guesses based on only the past behavior o' obsidian developers.  but that is the case as with so many elements o' poe, yes?  heck, the reason we is a kickstarter supporter o' poe is precisely because o' our experience playing past obsidian crpgs.  can we possibly know about story elements and companion interaction o' poe until we play it? nope, but based on past obsidian games, we is moderate confident that we will enjoy such stuff in poe. recognize that we cannot know how much impact resolve and perception and intellect and various skills will have on the game beyond the mechanical numbers resolutions we has seen and tested thus far is  hardly convincing us that we should ignore such considerations.  

 

in the obsidian nwn games, we liked to play as a cleric, but we Always boosted intelligence to at least 14 and took a few (2-3) levels of rogue so that we would get extra skills.  there were no way we could know how much impact the talky skills and intelligence checks would have on dialogues, but past obsidian games had taught us that those social-skill checks would be plentiful and meaningful for those who cared about such checks. our cleric builds were hardly optimal from a pov o' the mechanics o' combat, but there weren't no other way we woulda' chosen to play a cleric who were only receiving 2 skill points per level.  

 

recognizing the impossibility o' certainty regarding attributes value beyond combat is not the same as recommending that we should ignore.

 

those who fail to learn from the past...

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 14, 2015 by Gromnir

[illathid]

 

Intterupt isn't exactly a offensive stat, I'd say it more along the lines of an active defense.  Sucessfuly interrupting an enemy lowers thier DPS, and (when it gets fixed) breaks engagement.

 

It's Offensive in that it forces itself on an enemy, and has an offensive effect. You could argue that any offence is "active defence", in that killing someone means they can't hurt you. Which is exactly why Offence almost always is more important and has a bigger impact than Defence.

 

It is offensive when it deals with the enemy, whether it hurts the enemy, disables them, or interrupts them. It is defensive when it deals with yourself, protection you from the offence of the enemies. Interrupt is the offence to which Concentration is the defence.

 

I'm not arguing with you, really, I'm just making the offence/defence definitions as I used them clear. Your point can basically be summarised into the adage "The best defence is a good offence", and I completely agree, which is my entire point.

 

 

That's fair. I was thinking more in the terms of Offense = increasing outgoing DPS & Defense = decreasing incoming DPS. So no matter how high you stack your interrupts, it won't increase outgoing DPS, but it will have an effect on your incoming DPS.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Intterupt isn't exactly a offensive stat, I'd say it more along the lines of an active defense.  Sucessfuly interrupting an enemy lowers thier DPS, and (when it gets fixed) breaks engagement.

 

It's Offensive in that it forces itself on an enemy, and has an offensive effect. You could argue that any offence is "active defence", in that killing someone means they can't hurt you. Which is exactly why Offence almost always is more important and has a bigger impact than Defence.

 

It is offensive when it deals with the enemy, whether it hurts the enemy, disables them, or interrupts them. It is defensive when it deals with yourself, protection you from the offence of the enemies. Interrupt is the offence to which Concentration is the defence.

 

I'm not arguing with you, really, I'm just making the offence/defence definitions as I used them clear. Your point can basically be summarised into the adage "The best defence is a good offence", and I completely agree, which is my entire point.

 

 

That's fair. I was thinking more in the terms of Offense = increasing outgoing DPS & Defense = decreasing incoming DPS. So no matter how high you stack your interrupts, it won't increase outgoing DPS, but it will have an effect on your incoming DPS.

 

interrupt works a bit like a stun.  a stun attack that also does damage is potentially very powerful, which is no doubt why josh is being so cautious.  we have seen the abuse o' stun weapons and attacks in previous rpgs and crpgs just as has josh, so we get the caution.  if Gromnir can use an attack that not only reliable damages foes, but prevents enemies from successful attack our party, then we have an extreme vital weapon,  but even in 435, that ain't how interrupt works.  from a practical and pragmatic pov, even overpowered interrupts o' 435 is not encouraging us to boost resolve or use the numerous spells that increase concentration by 30 for up-to a full minute. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Raist007]

Did you loot the boss with the stash? If so, it ate your soulstone and that's why you can't complete the spear.

 

So if I redo the temple, defeat the boss, and do not take his loot then I will be able to complete the 'quest'?

[Gfted1]

 

Did you loot the boss with the stash? If so, it ate your soulstone and that's why you can't complete the spear.

 

So if I redo the temple, defeat the boss, and do not take his loot then I will be able to complete the 'quest'?

 

 

I believe Sock mean that when you defeat the boss, do not use the Stash option, but instead loot the stone individually to one of your party members backpack. I think I read a post somewhere where the Stash looting option eats quest items. I could have also made that up in my head.

[SergeantHans]

Noticed that wizards dont get the veil automatically any longer and has been replaced with arcane assault as a starter ability. I would very much like to get a choice between the two on first level.

 

Any out there who have a thought on this also?

[Bazy]

Noticed that wizards dont get the veil automatically any longer and has been replaced with arcane assault as a starter ability. I would very much like to get a choice between the two on first level.

 

Any out there who have a thought on this also?

Yes you should be able to choose. But both are awful as per rest abilities. 

[SergeantHans]

 

Noticed that wizards dont get the veil automatically any longer and has been replaced with arcane assault as a starter ability. I would very much like to get a choice between the two on first level.

 

Any out there who have a thought on this also?

Yes you should be able to choose. But both are awful as per rest abilities. 

 

Hehe yeah not too powerful i agree, still the veil will be more useful to my cc gunslinger wiz

[Bazy]

...the veil will be more useful to my cc gunslinger wiz

Better off spending your talent point on something else, and just using the other wizard defensive spells that don't suck. 

[SergeantHans]

 

...the veil will be more useful to my cc gunslinger wiz

Better off spending your talent point on something else, and just using the other wizard defensive spells that don't suck. 

 

...why i want it as an "ability" on 1st lvl instead of picking it as a talent (where there are tons of more useful choices)

[Sensuki]

I actually don't see why that'd be a problem. Although Interrupt and Concentration have a dichotomous (dichotomic?) relationship, there's really no reason (that I can see) as to why they'd offer the same bonus. From a player perspective, Interrupt is much more important than Deflection. I'm surprised you'd not agree, since you often espouse the virtues of offence compared to defence. The fact of the game - even as we know Interrupt will be fixed - is that it's always better with a strong offence than a strong defence. Because of this, I think it's appropriate that the defensive bonuses would be somewhat stronger than the offensive ones. In a straight comparison, if they are completely analogous, otherwise, the offensive option (Interrupt) will always be better than the defensive (Concentration).

 

Nah man. Interrupt is not very useful for several classes that don't often take part in continuous damaging attacks, and other classes have other things they need to invest in. Interrupt at the moment is most effective when dual wielding, but with the new changes it should be fairly good with any weapon.

 

+2 Deflection on two attributes means that you will now be able to get 40 Deflection from Attributes at character creation which is just crazy. 20 (from a 20 in one Attribute) is fine. The problem with that build is the offensive capability you sacrifice if you use a shield, it's not related to Attributes itself.

 

And the fact that those are the exact things one wants behind Accuracy is actually exactly why I don't want it on the same Attribute.

 

Like I said to Lephys earlier, it's because of the Accuracy removal that this stat becomes a no-brainer for every caster in the game. In v301 when there was Accuracy, the split AoE and Duration hurt caster builds, but benefited several martial builds (most notably - Paladins and Chanters). Priests were boned it was like well - now I need three high attributes to be somewhat useful, gg.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Sensuki

[HozzM]

I have had access to the beta for a while but had not spent any time with it until this latest build.  So I don't have anything enlightening to say other than to offer my first impressions with the game.  According to Steam I have 6 hours with the game total.

 

I consider myself above average at RPGs, have played all the IE games, BG2 especially, a ton of times, so I thought I would be able to just drop in and do well on Normal.  That was not the case.  First rolled up a Barb, and went with the 4 stock BB party members and promptly got smoked in that first fight, Meldreth.  Like, smoked.   Embarrassed, really.  The Barb was a lot more squishy than I thought he would be, and I was not paying any attention to positioning before the fight and before I realized it might be a good idea to micromanage my party, especially the casters, it was too late.

 

I did beat that fight after another couple of tries but decided I did not like the Barb.  Next game I made a Ranger.  Well, game started and my pet was nowhere to be found, could not figure out how to summon him (reading up on this it seems like this is just a bug I encountered at an unfortunate time) so I quit that character after the first fight, which was not hard.  In fact I found that BB Priest could solo it with just Holy Radiance, is that a bug?  The combat log was not very helpful in seeing what exactly was happening but it seemed to just instantly kill all the enemies in range.

 

Next character I made was a Druid.  Seems like a pretty good class so far.  I have the majority of my 6 hours with this character.  I hired a Monk at the inn too, they seem pretty good as well.  Question about Swift Strikes though...I understand that it costs 1 wound to use but the feedback from the UI was not very clear on whether or not I had triggered it and whether or not it was active.  When I click the icon to use it, it does not light up the way the other character abilities seem to when I click them.  It does seem to activate though...my monk's fists are blue and my wound count goes down by 1...I found the stun to be good as well.

 

Venturing out of town initially I found the beetle fights to be hard but only because I took them for granted and gave my party no direction beyond attack...I underestimated the beetles.  Spiders I did not underestimate, scouting with a stealth character helped me a lot in the Cave.  On Normal the ogre fight was easy, Druid's Charm spell worked great taking the bears out of the equation, monk stunned the ogre and that was pretty much it.  I am back in town and in that dungeon under the tanner's tower, but just at the start.

Some general observations/feedback:

 

Let us name save games

 

Is there a character specific action queue in combat?  Seems like there would have to be but I cant seem to find it or how to use it.

 

As many others have stated, that webbed graphic has to go.  I thought the spiders were playing with fire or something.

 

All in all, I am very excited about the upcoming release.  This very much feels like the spiritual successor to BG3 that I have been wanting to play for 10+ years now.  The setting being 'not D&D/Forgotten Realms' took a little adjusting to but in the end I think this will be a good thing for all involved.

[Sensuki]

You can queue actions with SHIFT + Left Click, but it's currently buggy and doens't work. Used to work in the earlier versions.

 

Agree about naming saves.

I agree about Swift Strikes being a little bit confusing. It's a strange ability that costs 1 wound, but what do you do if it's already active? Cast it again? I'm not even sure if it refreshes or not, will have to test it.

 

Combat log is a mess because of the amount of stuff that gets pasted into it. I really hope they implement a filter in a patch/expansion to allow us to control what we see in there.

[Lephys]

edit: dw

What does "dw" mean?

[Rumsteak]

 

edit: dw

What does "dw" mean?

 

 

Damage waiver, when renting a car. You're welcome.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Rumsteak

[Sensuki]

Don't worry.

[wanderon]

Don't worry.

BH

[Karkarov]

Combat log is a mess because of the amount of stuff that gets pasted into it. I really hope they implement a filter in a patch/expansion to allow us to control what we see in there.

If they take any advice from this thread, this is it.

 

I still think interrupt is fine though so there!  Who cares if it favors duel wielders, it is okay if a stack is not must have for everyone.

[wanderon]

 

Combat log is a mess because of the amount of stuff that gets pasted into it. I really hope they implement a filter in a patch/expansion to allow us to control what we see in there.

If they take any advice from this thread, this is it.

 

I still think interrupt is fine though so there!  Who cares if it favors duel wielders, it is okay if a stack is not must have for everyone.

 

 

Depends on what interrupt accomplishes doesn't it? I haven't looked all that closely but BB rogue (on Normal) seems to get an interrupt with everything except a miss - graze, hit, crit, etc and his misses are few and far between so if it stops your opponent from taking his current action (thus having to start a new action) and each new action is likely to fall behind BB rogues next non-miss that would seem to be OP.

 

I certainly would not want to be on the other side of that equation with an enemy rogue attacking me and being unable to even get a swing in.

[Gfted1]

Is it possible to "stunlock" enemies if you have a high enough Interrupt?