Journalism and sexism in the games industry

Hiro Protagonist · January 4, 2015

I'm confused by the inconsistency in these posts and the basic contradictions around some views

When we first spoke about hookers and removing them from GTA I was accused of censorship and told " a hooker is a normal job, just like a hotdog salesman"

Are we now saying that in fact being a hooker is in fact a demeaning and abusive job like I mentioned in the beginning?

Are we now acknowledging that in fact by nature hookers are actually victims of their own jobs in many cases?

Ah Bruce, calling Volourn's niece who is under age a hooker and prostitute and trying to back pedal. No, the inconsistency is in your posting and trying to duck and weave out of it. Geez Bruce, it's okay to admit you're wrong. I look forward to your apology to Volourn.

Keyrock · January 4, 2015

I'm confused by the inconsistency in these posts and the basic contradictions around some views

When we first spoke about hookers and removing them from GTA I was accused of censorship and told " a hooker is a normal job, just like a hotdog salesman"

Are we now saying that in fact being a hooker is in fact a demeaning and abusive job like I mentioned in the beginning?

Are we now acknowledging that in fact by nature hookers are actually victims of their own jobs in many cases?

A hooker is a perfectly acceptable job (where legally permitted) for someone of age. I do not know the age of Volo's daughter, but if she's underage then suggesting she's a hooker is pretty ****ed up. I will give you the benefit of the doubt of it being a joke, although one with a certain lack of tact (talking about someone's potentially underage child).

BruceVC · January 4, 2015

I'm confused by the inconsistency in these posts and the basic contradictions around some views

When we first spoke about hookers and removing them from GTA I was accused of censorship and told " a hooker is a normal job, just like a hotdog salesman"

Are we now saying that in fact being a hooker is in fact a demeaning and abusive job like I mentioned in the beginning?

Are we now acknowledging that in fact by nature hookers are actually victims of their own jobs in many cases?

A hooker is a perfectly acceptable job (where legally permitted) for someone of age. I do not know the age of Volo's daughter, but if she's underage then suggesting she's a hooker is pretty ****ed up. I will give you the benefit of the doubt of it being a joke, although one with a certain lack of tact (talking about someone's potentially underage child).

Really, so you think if Volo's niece was 18 he would have no problem with her working as a hooker?

Most people who have a reasonable outlook on sex workers know that there jobs in almost cases are both demeaning and degrading

This is the original article that I support that discusses removing hookers from GTA

http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/10/7364823/gta-5s-vicious-misogyny-ought-to-be-addressed-not-ignored

As I have said several times I play the GTA games and enjoy them, but that doesn't mean we can't ask for some changes around gameplay

And finally the suggestion that I should apologize to Volo is ludicrous. Volo has been calling me a Nazi for several months now, thats right..a Nazi. Now the Nazi's had an objective of achieving white Aryan supremacy and were responsible for the genocide of millions of people. A Nazi is the antithesis of what people like me who believe in SJ causes stand for and believe in. But you don't notice me expressing "outrage" and expecting an apology. Even though it is an offensive term

So I'll tell you what, lets see Volo apologie to me for calling me a women-hater and a Nazi and I'll consider apologizing to him

Darkpriest · January 4, 2015

Until something is a part of a real life, it can be represented and even ridiculed by the laws of artistic freedom and freedom of speech in any media, including games. As long as it does not break the laws about the "hate speech" it's fine, so by that definition GTA is fine and it is buyer's consent if he wants to get this media or not. Do not force onto other people your beliefs and your vision of what you think should be in media or not. Ultimately consumers evaluate the product and if they deemed it bad or offensive they won't buy it. PERIOD.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Darkpriest

Fighter · January 4, 2015

Most people who have a reasonable outlook on sex workers know that there jobs in almost cases are both demeaning and degrading

There is a ton of content in fiction that is demeaning and degrading towards its characters. Why are hookers an exception?

Blarghagh · January 4, 2015

Giant lol at you, Bruce, for using the colloquial implication of sex work and then pretending you were making a point. It was an interesting move to be sure to go from "but didn't you guys say sex work wasn't degrading so I didn't insult his niece" to full blown "sex work is degrading and demeaning (which also means I was insulting his niece)" but looks like it didn't work.

I also like the part where you have a problem with Volo, and respond by attacking his niece instead of him. I recall that we had a discussion about trolls before in another thread, when someone claimed trolls just attack people's weaknesses and are therefore not sexist. I pointed out that trolls will often attack men's female loved ones, such as their mothers or girlfriends, showing that they consider the man's greatest weakness to be the women they care for rather than their own actual weaknesses. You heavily condemned the practice and supported my viewpoint at the time - very surprised to see such an inherently sexist act from you, Bruce.

Although, as for apologizing to Volourn, what is this, couples therapy? We're on the internet, scrubs.

Also, we dealt with the GTA discussion before. Bruce lost last time, just go and quote that. In the meanwhile, let's talk about actually interesting things such as the personal accounts of harassment or Liana K's intriguing view about digital colonialism.

Longknife · January 4, 2015

Am I the only one that doesn't give two ****s about hookers and would rather see Volourn and Bruce shut the ever-living **** up with their needlessly stupid and irrelevant arguments about whose a nazi and whose a sex worker, and I'd much rather see Bruce's response to statements like this?

To me, the greatest part about this (reddit's ban on KiA's boycott efforts) is that it's proof that they know gamergate is about corruption in the media. If they genuinely believed gamergate was about harassing women, they would have banned harassment of women, which would do nothing because no one is doing that here.

They directly attacked the main purpose of this sub, which is to enable boycotts of corrupt media and journalists. I couldn't imagine a more obvious admission that they know exactly what we're about and are opposed to us attacking corruption.

I say this every time and I must sound like a broken record: why do the anti-GG proponents we have in this thread and on these forums seem to disappear or why do we have ones that blatantly ignore every good point made by a GG'er? Very first page is someone calling out GG for some harassment that went on because of GG. That's disheartening, that's ****ing awful to hear about, yet we respond.

Here, KiA was just kicked around by reddit not for sexism, not for harassment, not for hate speak, but for boycotting efforts. There is VERY good reason to look at that and ask why boycott efforts of all things were targeted if this is supposed to be about sexism and harassment and not actually about corruption in journalism. And yet here we are discussing hookers with Bruce....again.

And just on a sidenote because I'm in a particularly bitter mood from having to listen to you idiots call each other Nazis and sex workers every single ****ing time a serious issue shows it's face:

Bruce, you've said you've hired sex workers before, yes? You've also expressed sympathy for them. Quite a bit.

So why are you hiring them? I've said before in another thread that I consider "Support our Troops" to be very clever propaganda on behalf of the USA because it absolves the troops of any personal responsibility for the stuff they do. It sends a message of "don't worry, you are just an honorable young man willing to die to protect his country! What a hero! WE are the evil ones in D.C. who always wage war on brown people! Any of your mistakes are ultimately our fault." That's great and all, but wars simply wouldn't be feasible if you stopped signing up for them and stopped agreeing to be a trooper. In that regard, yes, the troops are just as guilty as D.C. is, but D.C. doesn't want potential recruits thinking that because it kinda screws up their recruiting tactics and war efforts. No troops = no war.

Same damned thing here. No customers = no sex workers. You're perpetuating a demand for the work, and if there's no demand, the job will not exist. Even if it's some young thing saying "I have to make this much a day or my pimp will beat me! I hate my life!" ....Call the cops? Bring her to one of those charities to help sex workers you claim to donate to?

And Volourn, if you call everyone a Nazi, it loses meaning. Your usage of the word lost meaning threads ago. You could be calling him a friggin' teddy bear right now and it'd have the same effect. If you wanna be taken seriously, maybe you shouldn't call literally everything Nazi-esque.

But that's all besides the point. I'd much rather discuss the implications of that reddit ban.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Longknife

BruceVC · January 4, 2015

Okay I'm going to drop the discussion about Volo's niece, sex workers and GTA removing hookers

I don't think I "lost " the discussion as TN alluded to but I also don't think the discussion is relevant to this thread.

But Volo is the one who keeps on asking me "why I don't want his niece to play GTAV" which was something I never, ever said. So I'll just ignore this type of question from him in the future :teehee:

Meshugger · January 4, 2015

Conspiracy tyme people! https://archive.today/b1l7N

Shallow · January 4, 2015

Really, so you think if Volo's niece was 18 he would have no problem with her working as a hooker?

Bruce, this is total bs, I wouldn't want my niece becoming a garbageman or a hotdog salesman, that doesn't mean garbageman and hotdog salesmen are natural victims who can't be portrayed getting hurt in videogames. This has got to be one of the worst arguments I've ever read from you, it essentially boils down to "If you don't want someone you care about becoming X, then X is obviously an oppressed minority, thus X can't be portrayed getting hurt in videogames due to premium victim status.".

Longknife · January 4, 2015

Conspiracy tyme people! https://archive.today/b1l7N

I hate theories like this cause I'm a big proponent of Occam's Razor.

I also don't quite see how defending Zoe Quinn was somehow neccesary for the good of Common Core.

Volourn · January 4, 2015

"But Volo is the one who keeps on asking me "why I don't want his niece to play GTAV" which was something I never, ever said. So I'll just ignore this type of question from him in the future "

1. You believe it is acceptable GTA5 be banned because it has hookers being killed in it.

2. My neice loves the game and enjoys playing it.

3. You want it banned tells me you feel it is okay for you as a man to mansplain to my niece who is a young woman what games she can or cannot play.

\How is that acceptable?

\"And Volourn, if you call everyone a Nazi, it loses meaning. Your usage of the word lost meaning threads ago. You could be calling him a friggin' teddy bear right now and it'd have the same effect. If you wanna be taken seriously, maybe you shouldn't call literally everything Nazi-esque."

You ever stop to think that that's the entire point? Now stop being a nazi and telling me what to do. Thanks. :)

"Giant lol at you, Bruce, for using the colloquial implication of sex work and then pretending you were making a point. It was an interesting move to be sure to go from "but didn't you guys say sex work wasn't degrading so I didn't insult his niece" to full blown "sex work is degrading and demeaning (which also means I was insulting his niece)" but looks like it didn't work.

I also like the part where you have a problem with Volo, and respond by attacking his niece instead of him. I recall that we had a discussion about trolls before in another thread, when someone claimed trolls just attack people's weaknesses and are therefore not sexist. I pointed out that trolls will often attack men's female loved ones, such as their mothers or girlfriends, showing that they consider the man's greatest weakness to be the women they care for rather than their own actual weaknesses. You heavily condemned the practice and supported my viewpoint at the time - very surprised to see such an inherently sexist act from you, Bruce."

BINGO.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Volourn

PK htiw klaw eriF · January 4, 2015

Some details about Afterlife Empire, the game funded by TFYC.

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/01/afterlife-empire-images-video-clips-introduce-more-characters/

Tangentially related, but long-term study finds no link to videogame violence and rl violence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/gaming/longterm-us-study-finds-no-links-between-violent-video-games-and-youth-violence-9851613.html

It's almost like people can tell fiction from reality.

Orogun01 · January 4, 2015

Some details about Afterlife Empire, the game funded by TFYC.

http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/01/afterlife-empire-images-video-clips-introduce-more-characters/

Tangentially related, but long-term study finds no link to videogame violence and rl violence.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/gaming/longterm-us-study-finds-no-links-between-violent-video-games-and-youth-violence-9851613.html

It's almost like people can tell fiction from reality.

Yes but where's the study that says that they don't cause sexism?

PK htiw klaw eriF · January 4, 2015

Some details about Afterlife Empire, the game funded by TFYC.http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/01/afterlife-empire-images-video-clips-introduce-more-characters/

Tangentially related, but long-term study finds no link to videogame violence and rl violence.http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/gaming/longterm-us-study-finds-no-links-between-violent-video-games-and-youth-violence-9851613.html

It's almost like people can tell fiction from reality.

Yes but where's the study that says that they don't cause sexism?

Not done because sexism is difficult to measure.

Barothmuk · January 4, 2015

As for sex-positive feminism, I agree with sex-positive feminists in regards to pornography and sex work not being evil in and of themselves. While there are obviously disgusting perversions, such as child porn, and making anyone do sex acts against their will is horrible, sexuality and sex acts in and of themselves are not evil in my opinion. They are a natural, biological function, ones that can be seen again and again throughout the animal kingdom. While we are sentient, we are still animals, and mating is a basic and very much necessary part of our life cycle. I find using sexuality to entice the opposite (or same, if you like) sex to be entirely natural.

Sex-negative feminism doesn't oppose "sex" they oppose the exploitive industries of pornography and prostitution.

I always find it a tad disturbing when people treat this as one in the same.

Keyrock · January 4, 2015

As for sex-positive feminism, I agree with sex-positive feminists in regards to pornography and sex work not being evil in and of themselves. While there are obviously disgusting perversions, such as child porn, and making anyone do sex acts against their will is horrible, sexuality and sex acts in and of themselves are not evil in my opinion. They are a natural, biological function, ones that can be seen again and again throughout the animal kingdom. While we are sentient, we are still animals, and mating is a basic and very much necessary part of our life cycle. I find using sexuality to entice the opposite (or same, if you like) sex to be entirely natural.
Sex-negative feminism doesn't oppose "sex" they oppose the exploitive industries of pornography and prostitution.

I disagree that pornography and prostitution is inherently exploitive and that's exactly the point sex-positive feminists argue, hence where we agree, hence my post you quoted.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Keyrock

Longknife · January 4, 2015

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/2rb5t3/speculation_kotaku_writer_jason_schreier_states/

Can't decide if good thing or bad thing. Good in the sense the top replies are "YA RITE KOTAKU," bad in the sense here we go again with Kotaku clickbaiting.

Barothmuk · January 4, 2015

I disagree that pornography and prostitution is inherently exploitive and that's exactly the point sex-positive feminists argue, hence where we agree, hence my post you quoted.

Well to quote you again:

While we are sentient, we are still animals, and mating is a basic and very much necessary part of our life cycle. I find using sexuality to entice the opposite (or same, if you like) sex to be entirely natural.

What I gathered from this is that you assumed that the "sex-negative" feminists opposed sex in of itself.

Regarding pornography and prostitution; although sex-positive feminists (and more commonly pimps, porn-producers and johns) love to conceptualize some ideal world where women have complete sexual autonomy over the bodies and freely choose to sell themselves as sexual commodities the reality is that the majority of these women do not wish to be part of these industries and almost entirely come from the poorest sectors of society and are subjected to rape, abuse and forced drug addiction and (if they're lucky enough to survive) will often come out of it with severe PTSD.

"Theoretically, sex-positive feminism could radically transform the concept of female sexuality. Ideally, each woman owns her sexuality — it is not something to be possessed or critiqued by men or by other women, for that matter. However, sex-positive feminism in practice ends up being — more often than not — a repackaging of misogynistic impositions on women’s bodies, sexualities and gender performances sealed with a waxy lipstick-stained kiss. Rather than eradicating sexist oppression for all women, sex-positive feminism deludes privileged women into believing that by supposedly taking control of their individual sexualities, they are revolutionizing the way all people perceive female sexuality. This ideology erases the racial, cultural and personal influences that shape each woman’s sexuality and forgets to account for the chokehold that society has on our choices, no matter how self-aware we think we are."

Rashmee Kumar

Edited January 4, 2015 by Barothmuk

Keyrock · January 4, 2015

There are certainly cases of sex workers being exploited and wronged, but there are also cases of people completely willingly going into that field and even enjoying their work.

Longknife · January 4, 2015

Are we seriously going to continue having this same conversation over and over and over and over?

Guys, we've had this convo like four times now and it has jack all to do with all the recent (and in my opinion more interesting) news of corruption. Hell, it has very little to do with GamerGate either as it's kind of a tangent of a tangent.

Malcador · January 4, 2015

The war still rages, I see.

Used to be neighbours with an escort, was rather amazed at how many shoes she was always donating.

Oerwinde · January 5, 2015

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

Meshugger · January 5, 2015

Is there an established thread where we discuss how whiny crybabies are ruining the world? like how people are angry at Target for portraying Annie, a white character, with a white model, or is this an appropriate thread?

What?

Barothmuk · January 5, 2015

There are certainly cases of sex workers being exploited and wronged, but there are also cases of people completely willingly going into that field and even enjoying their work.

They are a tiny minority of middle to upper class college educated women who have the luxury of not being dependant on the job and a greater capacity to leave. Edited January 5, 2015 by Barothmuk

Journalism and sexism in the games industry

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