392 - Significant problems: The Ranger and Light Weapons

[PrimeJunta]

I don't know, but I very much doubt Hoppy the antelope contributed much. Also: BB Rogue was gimped with a weaker weapon and talents not optimized for ranged combat, so she wasn't really playing to her strengths.

 

Anyway, what of it? The ranger's only distinguishing characteristic is that it's supposed to excel at doing damage at range. That's what it's for. If a rogue or fighter equipped with a bow beats it at its own game, then the ranger is a squib.

[Sock]

So, just a crazy thought, but...

 

What if not all animal companions had to be combat related? What if you could pick, say, a field mouse companion and as a result your ranger benefits from a significant perception boost, and perhaps significant skill bonuses for spotting traps and the like.

 

In other words, if you pick a non-combat companion, you gain personal perks on the ranger. This still fits within the theme of the ranger, but allows for more variety with ranger builds.

[Shevek]

It might be nice to have a slew of companions that you can whip out on the fly (for each situation) like the movie Beastmaster.

 

[PrimeJunta]

I choose Lassie!

[aeonsim]

If the ranger is supposed to be about ranged weapons and the animal companion one way top improve it may be to give a bonus when both the ranger and companion are attacking the same enemy.

For example:

Coordinated assault, the ranger gets +10 to accuracy when targeting an enemy engaged by their companion and an increased critical hit range as his companion sets the enemy up perfectly for the rangers attack.

 

That'd give them a pretty major boost in damage.

 

Another option would be to apply a status effect.

For example the combined coordinated attacks from the ranger and companion apply a dazed effect to the enemy and enemy DT is reduced by 5.

[Sensuki]

First the devs have to actually recognize that the Ranger sucks. But the chance of actual changes to the class are slim to none at best.

[PrimeJunta]

I'd settle for losing the shared health pool and adjusting the numbers on the class and the talents to make sure it beats out the rogue and fighter in ranged damage. At least it wouldn't be utter rubbish.

[morhilane]

If the ranger is supposed to be about ranged weapons and the animal companion one way top improve it may be to give a bonus when both the ranger and companion are attacking the same enemy.

For example:

Coordinated assault, the ranger gets +10 to accuracy when targeting an enemy engaged by their companion and an increased critical hit range as his companion sets the enemy up perfectly for the rangers attack.

 

That'd give them a pretty major boost in damage.

 

Another option would be to apply a status effect.

For example the combined coordinated attacks from the ranger and companion apply a dazed effect to the enemy and enemy DT is reduced by 5.

 

The Ranger already has a few abilities to increase its accuracy in a fight. I don't think they need more of them.

 

I personally believe they just need to adjust the rate of attack of the pet and their base damage output along with fixing the bugs the class has. Some of the pets don't attack often enough (the fast wolf isn't very fast, I think the stag attack more often than it does) and they need various damage type, because everything doing piercing damage is just crap...especially in the BB where half the mobs have high DR against it.

[Luckmann]

I'd settle for losing the shared health pool and adjusting the numbers on the class and the talents to make sure it beats out the rogue and fighter in ranged damage. At least it wouldn't be utter rubbish.

 

I'm not sure "make sure it beats out the rogue and fighter in ranged damage" is a good design goal. I think they are trying to (and I think they should be trying to) avoid the situation where X is always the best choice for Y in terms of general approach builds.

 

This means that generally speaking, a ranger should be doing good in melee and at range, and a fighter should be comparable to a rogue be comparable to a ranger and so on, with key differences other than who does the best with what.

 

I personally think that the Ranger should excel in mobility and skirmishing, being able to fairly easily move from target to target in melee, or stand at a long range and pick targets off, easily switching between targets (Generally high point-damage rather than extended single-target DPS), with the Pet acting as a support character to the group rather than a meatshield (which it currently seems to suck at, anyway) for the Ranger.

 

The shared health-pool needs to die, though. At this point, I don't care overly much what that does to balance - it needs to die before any other balancing happens, because it just doesn't work, and the Ranger shouldn't be balanced (in any way) around a mechanic that just doesn't work.

[PrimeJunta]

@Luckmann Oh, I agree: a complete redesign of the ranger would be better, and your ideas about it sound like they would be a good deal of fun... although ATM the rogue can do all of that extremely competently (minus the pet), which is a bit of a problem for it.

 

I was thinking about what could be done late in the development process without too much effort. And for that, I think lowering the bar from "genuinely fun and distinct" to "good for something and not actively unpleasant" is the best we can hope for. That could be done by getting rid of the shared health and beefing up the archery, so at least it'd kick ass at that.

[Surface Reflection]

Seems to me like you guys are saying a Ranger would benefit from improved additional movement skills, as a skirmish - avoidance kind of a ability for example would be, something to use to jump out of close combat scuffle, while being resistant to engagement and disengagement attacks to facilitate greater movement options in general.

 

For his ranged attacks, those that slow down or cripple movement and accuracy of other classes would be a nice addition, right? So you use him more tactically from the distance.

 

Not sure what to do with the pet though...

[Sock]

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

[Nakia]

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

So maybe it isn't the class  that sucks but the name of the class?   I think I will try what you are doing my next play through.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I wish they'd just dump the animal companion. Aside for it not working as is, it pigeonholes an archetypal class that should be flexible and interesting. Understanding that POE is not defined by existing examples of the class, why do RPGs need another squishy pet controller? A ranger, like Aragorn or Drizzt, is a self sufficient skirmishes type, adept at surviving in the wild. They're not defined by a weapon type, or even ranged/ melee.

Wouldn't it be more interesting character to have a ranger in the party, or build one, if...

1. Having ranger in party added a small stat bump at rest, similar to resting in an inn but less substantial

2. Ranger had high mobility, similar to the barbarian class talent- allowing you to either move to defend your wizards or race ahead to target a caster

3. Modal talents that let them switch between tanking (for a middling duration) and damage.

4. A set of talents that encouraged using ranged AND melee. Slowing effects/ control with the ranged, spike damage with the melee

 

Essentially, they should become a fighter/thief class that adds new tactical opportunities to the game

I just want to highlight this post. It provides a nice bunch of stepping stones for ameliorating the ranger class. Please read, Obsidian!

[PrimeJunta]

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

 

I'm glad you liked it, but... Medreth isn't much of a challenge, and I'm pretty sure you would've been able to gank him even more effectively with a fighter, monk, or rogue built for damage.

[Shallow]

While at this point it's way to late too expect serious changes to the ranger class, I'll go ahead and type what I would've proposed a year or so ago if I had a time machine, regardless of the fact that at this time it's way too late.

 

I think the main issue with the ranger class is that it's mainly built around one gimmick, and unlike the Cypher or the Chanter, the rangers gimmick just isn't that fun or cool, certain portions of it (the shared health pool for example) feel flat out tedious. Seeing as all the more basic roles are already filled out by the other less gimmicky classes (Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian), rangers do need to be a gimmicky, but I don't think it was a good idea making the animal companion the sole gimmick of the class, nor making it nearly as big a part of it as they did, rangers could've had a lot of potential if they'd been built with several gimmicks to specialize in as much as the player sees fitting, choosing between another step up the ladder of several abilities, including regular melee capability, every so often.

 

The four major abilities I'd have the ranger be able to focus on would be: Moving at a significantly faster speed than the rest of the party. Subduing wild animals, improving subdued animals, and utilizing said animals in combat. Removing/slowing/lessening damage over time effects towards either a sole touch range party member or the ranger himself, much faster than a unit like the priest is able to. And slowing down or otherwise crippling enemies when dealing damage to them.

 

For movement I'd give rangers two options, small permanent slight speed increases while in combat, or a modal ability, making the ranger move much faster than other party members, but with small constant damage to the rangers endurance while he's moving, along with abilities to decrease the cost of the modal, and increase the speed it gives you.

 

For wild animals I'd initially have the ranger select an initial ability to subdue hostile animals when they're at low health, depending on the style of animal subdued it'd have unique bonuses/penalties/abilities, however, the animals overall stats would be scaled to the ranger characters level, the initial ability also allows a couple of npcs to sell the ranger an animal companion. Once the ranger has subdued an animal, it'll remain the rangers animal companion until killed or dismissed, unlike other party members, when animal companions run out of endurance they're instantly killed. Once the initial ability has been chosen, the ranger can later improve the level of animals he's subdued in relation to his, or bind himself closer to his animal companion, giving rangers unique abilities based on which animal companions they currently have, specializing the animal companions much more (increasing the differences between the animal companions), improving the animal companion overall, unlocking special abilities for the animal companion based on it's level, but in exchange the ranger takes half of any damage the animal companion takes, the animal companion takes half of any damage the ranger takes, the ranger is greatly penalized for the duration of the fight if his animal companion dies, and the animal companion becomes hostile to the player party if the ranger is knocked unconscious, and has to be subdued again.

 

The removing/slowing/lessening of damage over time abilities seem fairly straight forward, per encounter abilities that can be selected by the ranger, requiring different levels.

 

The final gimmick the ranger can invest in would modal abilities that apply various penalties to enemy units the penalties are applied percentage wise, for each percentage of your health the ranger has personally removed, the more severe the penalty. Along with that there would be an ability allowing the ranger to make a melee attack that slows an enemy down to a snail pace, however, as the ranger has no disengagement without penalty ability, he'd need active help from another party member to really make use of it.

 

It's way to late for the ranger to receive the improvement it needs, which isn't necessarily even this, but it makes me feel a bit better about the state of a class I'd hoped could be very fun thinking of how it could've been better.

[DigitalCrack]

If part of what defines a ranger is the ability to survive and blend into any environment, then why not try to translate that into something that can be utilized in a combat sense.  Like a set of skills that the effects they cause and the way they function change based on the environment.  Like they would have a "snare" ability but how it works or what it does is determined by whether you are in a desert, forest, city, etc...  Basically a way to translate the rangers ability to use his knowledge of his immediate surroundings to full effect in combat situations.  He could still have a pet as well to further set him apart.

Edited January 4, 2015 by DigitalCrack

[morhilane]

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

[Nakia]

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

I made a "battle" ranger based on what Sock posted and am very happy with him. He and his animal partner work well together.  I picked a lion as his companion.  I like cats.

[DigitalCrack]

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

Edited January 4, 2015 by DigitalCrack

[Lord Wafflebum]

 

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

 

Unless they give the ranger a pigeon companion. Then that would be the only class I ever played.

[morhilane]

 

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

 

 

The health sharing is pretty unique actually. Also, how can the Ranger be pigeon holed if, by BB players's comment in this very thread, sword&board ranger and pet is effective and fun to play?

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

The health sharing is pretty unique actually. Also, how can the Ranger be pigeon holed if, by BB players's comment in this very thread, sword&board ranger and pet is effective and fun to play?

A ranged pet wielding warrior is hardly unique as a concept and adding a shared health pool doesn't magically make it unique. Sword and board obviously wasn't intended based on obsidians description. Players made that uniqueness happen.

[Lord Wafflebum]

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

Was it a direwolf? Was the ranger's father beheaded by a sadistic boy king?

[Sock]

 

I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

Was it a direwolf? Was the ranger's father beheaded by a sadistic boy king?

 

It was! And then he went to war, and then was seduced by a wiley temptress' grandmother, and died at his uncles wedding.

 

It was all very tragic.