Jump to content

Journalism and sexism in the games industry


Gorth

Recommended Posts

I guess Bruce likes underage hookers.

Well he's mentioned that he has frequented hookers before. Not sure if underage though.

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why I do not take you seriously Bruce. Because personally, I tend to filter out the people who have nothing worthwhile to say. If I debate for why Climate Change should be taken seriously, I do not respond to the guy in the back saying "ya you just think that cuz ur a libtard **** who is too stupid to recognize a blatant lie scientists concocted to seem more important," I respond to the guy who's trying to present actual info as to why I might be wrong.

 

You? You cling to those guys like a bee to honey.

No, he is just so high on his horse that he cant afford to look on it to see its actually not horse but undead donkey.

 

He dont see that by promoting his high moral standarts (in his own eyes ofc) he is actually much worse than those he sees as 'evil'. While he promotes 'nice' things like equality and LGTB while he trample down basics of western civilisation we were fighting so many wars over centuries for eg. freedom

 

or he is just troll

  • Like 1

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You seem almost offended by my suggestion your niece may work in the sex industry. I'm not sure why, it was some of  you guys who said being a hooker is a normal job like a hotdog salesman. It was some of you guys who said hookers don't need special consideration when it comes to there  job and lifestyle...so  I would think you should see my questions as asking if your niece has a normal job...that's the sex industry according to you?"

 

Idiocy. I don't mansplain to my niece. Why do you feel it's acceptable for you to do so?

 

 

"Now me I see it differently, I think the sex industry for many girls is degrading and exploitive. I think many of the ladies are victims of terrible circumstances and they do it for survival. And I wouldn't want to add to that misery in anyway"

 

So your opinion gives you the right to manspalin to my niece and tell her she's a stupid piece of crap because she enjoys playing a video game and that you have the moral right to decide what games she can or cannot play while accusing her of being something she is not? That's evil and nazi like behaviour.

 

\Why do you hate women so much?

 

 

 

I guess Bruce likes underage hookers.

Well he's mentioned that he has frequented hookers before. Not sure if underage though.

 

 

That's true I did say that and no the girls are all overage and work in strip clubs

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You seem almost offended by my suggestion your niece may work in the sex industry. I'm not sure why, it was some of  you guys who said being a hooker is a normal job like a hotdog salesman. It was some of you guys who said hookers don't need special consideration when it comes to there  job and lifestyle...so  I would think you should see my questions as asking if your niece has a normal job...that's the sex industry according to you?"

 

Idiocy. I don't mansplain to my niece. Why do you feel it's acceptable for you to do so?

 

 

"Now me I see it differently, I think the sex industry for many girls is degrading and exploitive. I think many of the ladies are victims of terrible circumstances and they do it for survival. And I wouldn't want to add to that misery in anyway"

 

So your opinion gives you the right to manspalin to my niece and tell her she's a stupid piece of crap because she enjoys playing a video game and that you have the moral right to decide what games she can or cannot play while accusing her of being something she is not? That's evil and nazi like behaviour.

 

\Why do you hate women so much?

 

Volo, Longknife is right. We are derailing this discussion about  something that isn't that relevant to the overall point

 

Lets move on, I won't be discussing your niece anymore :)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The question looks daft to those of us not indulging in the "skeleton journalists are controlling popular opinion" conspiracies.

 

They just did exactly that. The game ranked #7 was banned and it was done in anticipation of bad press.

 

The game was ranked #7 by people who'd never played it. And it was banned because Valve themselves chose to do it, by their own statements, not because of press.
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we're being lectured on how damaging prostitution is to women by a man who partakes in hookers. Ok then.....

 

In this vein, RPS has a problem with YouPorn sponsoring a DOTA2 team. I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

 

https://archive.today/s0R8g

 

I've heard that archive has been on the fritz, so apologies if it doesn't load.

  • Like 1

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game was ranked #7 by people who'd never played it. And it was banned because Valve themselves chose to do it, by their own statements, not because of press.

Yeah, press had no bearing on it at all.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

I hope you're not seriously comparing a Bioware romance scene to youporn.

 

Yeah, press had no bearing on it at all.

People other than you are capable of having their own opinions. This includes Valve.
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

I hope you're not seriously comparing a Bioware romance scene to youporn.

 

Yeah, press had no bearing on it at all.

People other than you are capable of having their own opinions. This includes Valve.

 

 

Yeah! Real bodily fluids are being wasted here compared to the imaginary ones in DA:I

 

(No, i haven't played the game)

Edited by Meshugger
  • Like 1

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game was ranked #7 by people who'd never played it. And it was banned because Valve themselves chose to do it, by their own statements, not because of press.

 

Sure... The predictably bad press it will get has nothing to do with it. :rolleyes:

 

And a good reception from players would get it on Steam, right? Fat chance. It was taken down because of the offensive subject matter more likely to dodge bad PR than anything else. And they would not bring it back even if popular because of how the journo moral police would react.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is it impossible for Valve to deny something simply because they don't want it on Steam?

"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

I hope you're not seriously comparing a Bioware romance scene to youporn.

 

Yeah, press had no bearing on it at all.

People other than you are capable of having their own opinions. This includes Valve.

You don't say? Likewise given the hand wringing over the game the first time it appeared what's your problem with the idea that they want to duck bad press from it ?

 

Your kind is always funny.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

I hope you're not seriously comparing a Bioware romance scene to youporn

Yes I am. Both are porn, one just happens to be animated and have "emotional stimulation" while the other is a porn database with many different types of porn. If you have a problem with pornographic material that caters to men, certainly a game where a player can have sex(via avatar) with a female character by selecting the heart option and buying her stuff is problematic as well, at least as much as getting health by paying for sex at any rate.

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I'm not inclined to believe the narrative you have conjured up where games journalists are exclusively responsible for all the things you dislike in gaming.

 

Sometimes a company simply does things people don't approve of for their own reasons. Sometimes they're listening to an audience that's not you. It's a complex matter that doesn't boil down to your ridiculous bugbears.

 

Valve itself has been a fairly upstanding company and if they state a reason, there's no reason to start second guessing them just to make the entire world fit in your little box.

"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is it impossible for Valve to deny something simply because they don't want it on Steam?

 

 

I certainly think Valve can, though in such a scenario I do believe Valve should be required to make an official statement on the matter. Perhaps not required, but it would definitely be the right thing to do and in their best interests.

 

Honestly if Valve would just explain why they didn't feel comfortable releasing it I'd be content. What bothers me is that to my knowledge, it's silence. This makes me question how much of this is Valve's personal opinion on the matter and how much of this is a result of SJW work or the GamerGate controversy as a whole. That may sound paranoid and let me clarify in advance I don't mean that Anita called Gabe Newell and commanded he deny that **** but rather there is potentially some "clique" within the industry pushing for this decision. And as for it sounding paranoid...? Well, that's what happens when the clique-mentality extends beyond just gaming journalists and manages to reach major news networks like the BBC and MSNBC. Suddenly at that point, yes, I do question how much kool-aid is being passed around.

Edited by Longknife

"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes and you are assuming a company in it for money is making things in some sort of vacuum. Apparently Valve having quality control on Greenlight is a point of amusement for some - is there a lot of shovelware on there, usually?

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why is it impossible for Valve to deny something simply because they don't want it on Steam?

 

I will give you that. Yes, it's possible Valve did this because Valve doesn't like it.

 

I do not find this likely. It is the atmosphere we live in. Is it just the game's media? No, I don't think so. But it is the self appointed moral arbiters that made this atmosphere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All those examples you guys mentioned, like Lolita, are  considered great works of literature. They are multi-levelled and nuanced and discuss real societal themes and issues. They encourage debate and it would be a travesty to see them banned

 

Hatred is none of this, its just game with a deeply flawed design where the developers want to be controversial and appeal to people like you guys who will buy there product

" in the interest of freedom of expression". Its a con..don't fall for it.

 

Also we aren't even talking about censorship here, Valve has every right to not distribute any game for whatever reason. They not saying you shouldn't play Hatred or it should be censored by others. This is there business decision and its something we should accept as its not like Valve doesn't distribute many games, this is really the first time I have heard about it ?

 

1. You haven't even played Hatred, nor is the game out yet, you have no way of knowing whether it'll be the greatest most profound game ever, you aren't even reading a book and then burning it, you're hearing about a concept and declaring that it mustn't be made.

2.Don't claim we'll buy the game when half of us have stated it'll probably suck and that we aren't interested in spending money on it.

3.It is correct that Valve as a company has the right to not sell Hatred, the same way I, as a consumer, have the right to tell Valve to go **** themselves and never purchase another game off steam again, same with Target, the proper response to both GTA5 and Hatred being removed isn't to cry for a law like Jack Thompson forcing people to sell games, it's to call Target and Valve ****ty companies, and try and convince people to get the products they need from other sources when possible, count the people who've said "We must establish legislation protecting video games from stores not wanting to sell them!" and count the people saying "Screw Valve" or "Screw Target", one of those two numbers are 0, guess which one. It is a business decision indeed, that doesn't mean we have to accept it, consumers have the right to be angry at decisions, the same way companies have the right to make those decisions, I don't believe steam has to sell Hatred if they don't want to, I just believe I have the right to respond with never purchasing a product that would earn them money.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I wonder how they felt about the pornographic DAI romances?

I hope you're not seriously comparing a Bioware romance scene to youporn

Yes I am. Both are porn, one just happens to be animated and have "emotional stimulation" while the other is a porn database with many different types of porn. If you have a problem with pornographic material that caters to men, certainly a game where a player can have sex(via avatar) with a female character by selecting the heart option and buying her stuff is problematic as well, at least as much as getting health by paying for sex at any rate.

 

Well, Porn is short for Pornography which literary means pictures of prostitutes; so Porn isn't actually porn. Still with the way that BW pimps out their characters to generate hype you have to wonder...

 

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes and you are assuming a company in it for money is making things in some sort of vacuum. Apparently Valve having quality control on Greenlight is a point of amusement for some - is there a lot of shovelware on there, usually?

Yes there is a lot. From grass simulators to Unity asset #473627.

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully Hatred comes to GOG, I prefer that we have a few games that present violence in an ugly, nasty and morally repulsive fashion, rather than the glamourised violence that we see in so many games. One that hopefully also presents the story of the protagonist, and how he came to hate all humanity, and resort to a killing spree. It could be very interesting or moronic, depending on presentation. Of course simulated violence has no affect on real violence, there has never been a causal link established that it does and the supposition is idiotic, but still it's worth ocassionally presenting violence in an alternative, less easy and glamorous fashion.

 

I far prefer we tackle all such problematic material head on, rather than try and hide it away, and censor for the good of the "moral majority." Censorship is an evil in and of itself, and to deny truth is blinkered and stupid. Should we deny Spielsberg a right to make Schindler's List, and deny the horrors of the Holocaust? Of course not, those whom forget the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them. At terrible cost.

 

Similarly prostitution is undoutedly harmful, and those whom perpetuate the trade, through using sex workers are guilty of prolonging the misery and abuse that prostitutes are routinely subjected to. Once again i'd rather face this head on, even in a simulated fashion, than bury ones head in the sand and pretend it does not exist, and hide the problem behind a smokescreen of self righteousness. The truth is a very precious commodity, and too many wish to deny it outright, i'd prefer it was championed, we have enough escapism as it is.

 

Edit: All ones own opinion and whatnot.

Edited by Nonek
  • Like 3

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Btw when I said it would be in Valve's best interest to justify their decision, this is part of the reason why: https://mobile.twitter.com/Eliah_R/status/544787426850267136

 

EU law is by no means my forte but I may check into this later as the parallels between this game and games like Postal and GTA does highlight a valid complaint and potential for bias. Sleeping soon but I'll try to check into this later.

"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully Hatred comes to GOG, I prefer that we have a few games that present violence in an ugly, nasty and morally repulsive fashion, rather than the glamourised violence that we see in so many games. One that hopefully also presents the story of the protagonist, and how he came to hate all humanity, and resort to a killing spree. It could be very interesting or moronic, depending on presentation. Of course simulated violence has no affect on real violence, there has never been a causal link established that it does and the supposition is idiotic, but still it's worth ocassionally presenting violence in an alternative, less easy and glamorous fashion.

 

I far prefer we tackle all such problematic material head on, rather than try and hide it away, and censor for the good of the "moral majority." Censorship is an evil in and of itself, and to deny truth is blinkered and stupid. Should we deny Spielsberg a right to make Schindler's List, and deny the horrors of the Holocaust? Of course not, those whom forget the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them. At terrible cost.

 

Similarly prostitution is undoutedly harmful, and those whom perpetuate the trade, through using sex workers are guilty of prolonging the misery and abuse that prostitutes are routinely subjected to. Once again i'd rather face this head on, even in a simulated fashion, than bury ones head in the sand and pretend it does not exist, and hide the problem behind a smokescreen of self righteousness. The truth is a very precious commodity, and too many wish to deny it outright, i'd prefer it was championed, we have enough escapism as it is.

 

Hopefully Hatred comes to GOG, I personally prefer buying from the customer focused providers anyway, rather than the monopoly.

 

Edit: All ones own opinion and whatnot.

What I find funny is that Hatred could be an excellent opportunity to raise critiscm of the carnage resulting from a mentally ill person who has access to weaponry. Its highly unlikely Hatred would intentionally do this, but such an experience could highlight the problems of untreated mental illness on society.

 

Meanwhile, DAI(a game I put about 100 hours into and completed most of the content) receives high praise despite being about killing individuals suckered in to joining a cult or who have become terminally ill because of a religion-sponsored substance abuse problem.

Edited by KaineParker
  • Like 1

"Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic

"I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus

"Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander

"Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador

"You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort

"thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex

"Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock

"Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco

"we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii

"I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing

"feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth

"Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi

"Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor

"I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine

"Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

All those examples you guys mentioned, like Lolita, are  considered great works of literature. They are multi-levelled and nuanced and discuss real societal themes and issues. They encourage debate and it would be a travesty to see them banned

 

Hatred is none of this

Perhaps I've missed something, but I'm under the impression that Hatred isn't finished, hasn't been released (or else why would it be up for voting on Greenlight?) so how would you know that Hatred is none of those things you list?

 

BTW, Lolita was turned down by 6 major US publishers for content concerns before Nobokov turned to France where the publisher ended up being one that mostly did pornographic novels. France banned it a year after its publication after the UK customs started seizing shipments into the country of the book. It took 4 years for US and 5 for UK publication. The UK publication ended the political career of the publisher.

 

So pardon me if I fail to see how "merit" somehow makes something censor/ban proof...

 

You far too clever to make such a fatuous argument that Hatred may  reach the intellectual and emotional heights of Lolita, its just a violent FPS....that's it

 

Since that's not what I did, I don't see what your problem was.

 

Point (A) we can't comment on what HATRED achieves because the game doesn't exist for us to mark its merit or lack of same.

 

Point (B) even great works can end up not finding distribution. Lolita is by far not the only work to have a troubled publishing history because of its content.

 

Point © it'd be a travesty for Lolita to be banned "because it was a great work" didn't stop it from being banned. It doesn't stop modern attempts to ban it. And this, ultimately is my point - while publishers (like Simon and Schuster with Nobokov or Steam with Hatred) are perfectly in their rights to decide that a creative work doesn't fit their publication profile, I start having a serious problem when consumer side activists start trying to dictate what should and shouldn't be distributed/available for me in any fashion.

 

Because its a slippery slope. Its all fine and good while you're in power and banning the things you don't like, but what happens when you're not in power and people start banning the things you do like?

  • Like 7

I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...