What You See Is What You Get Loot System

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'd like to add a +1 to all of those who've underlines the problem with bats dropping platemails, wolves perfectly fine cloaks, and oozes dropping love letters without any protective casing. Please have loot drops that make sense, and preferably won't bury us in repetitive stuff. I would loathe to see the lists of a million short swords from the SSI games do a come back in PoE. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

FFS. Oh how this game has turned out. There was the argument from those who were against kill xp that the reward for engaging in battle was the loot. Now Obsidian gives us trash loot or no loot and just a few coppers and we now have people saying they're okay with this.

In a perfect world, almost all loot should be unique in one way or the other, even description-wise, design, and so on. Without combat xp, I reckon they should at least have made a bigger effort on interesting and detailed loot.

[Sensuki]

FFS. Oh how this game has turned out. There was the argument from those who were against kill xp that the reward for engaging in battle was the loot. Now Obsidian gives us trash loot or no loot and just a few coppers and we now have people saying they're okay with this.

x1000

 

"Given poo and asking for more"

[Kjaamor]

I'd like to add a +1 to all of those who've underlines the problem with bats dropping platemails, wolves perfectly fine cloaks, and oozes dropping love letters without any protective casing. Please have loot drops that make sense, and preferably won't bury us in repetitive stuff. I would loathe to see the lists of a million short swords from the SSI games do a come back in PoE. 

 

A further plus one. This, to me, was the point of the WYSIWYG system. Not to acquire a multitude of trash to sell, but to prevent incongruous drops.

 

As for combat exp, while I was initially one the supporters of its absence (following the way it was used in VtM:B), I think having played the beta for a while that its absence doesn't really make sense for the nature of the game, and if bestiary exp is going to be implemented to compensate, they might be better off just implementing combat-based exp. Of course, that is dependent upon how much rebalancing that would require at this stage.

 

 

EDIT: Although to clarify, my position on combat exp's absence was never that loot should replace it, but rather that intelligent play should provide greater rewards. As it stands, I'm not convinced that the play to avoid combat is more intelligent or thematic than engaging in it.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Kjaamor

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, this neither-nor doesn't sit well with me.

[Kjaamor]

The other potential problem with bestiary exp compared to combat exp, is that it encourages pixel hunting rather than broader exploration. Finding the demi-lich is the house you had no cause to enter is good exploration, searching every single house in an area to find the last goblin so you can remain competitive is not.

[Gairnulf]

The other potential problem with bestiary exp compared to combat exp, is that it encourages pixel hunting rather than broader exploration. Finding the demi-lich is the house you had no cause to enter is good exploration, searching every single house in an area to find the last goblin so you can remain competitive is not.

Whether or not that will be his play style is up to the player though. And scanning the map for the last goblin requires more effort than another gamey habit I've quoted in the past - scanning rooms for loot with the press of a key.

[Kjaamor]

Whether or not that will be his play style is up to the player though. And scanning the map for the last goblin requires more effort than another gamey habit I've quoted in the past - scanning rooms for loot with the press of a key.

 

While it is up to the player, if the difference between doing that or not doing that amounts to a level of experience for your party, that's a rather large difference in difficulty come the hopefully-reasonably-difficult final boss fight. So the player who chooses to not do so is handicapping themselves which means that the designer is actively encouraging you do so. It's up to the player in the same way that deliberately using weapons you're not skilled with is up to the player. Yeah, it's a choice, but you are deliberately discouraged from doing so by the game.

 

Tab-search is its own beast, but I will say that the "effort" that tab-search removes is not an effort I am looking for in any game. A good rule of thumb is to first ask "Does the effort constitute an effort for the players skills, strategy or tactics?" If the answer is no, and let's be clear that in the case of replacing tab-search with manual pixel hunting that is most definitely a "No", then it's almost certainly best ditched.

[prodigydancer]

FFS. Oh how this game has turned out. There was the argument from those who were against kill xp that the reward for engaging in battle was the loot. Now Obsidian gives us trash loot or no loot and just a few coppers and we now have people saying they're okay with this.

If they give us non-full loot, kill XP won't make me any happier. Both XP and loot are rewards but one is not a substitute for the other and there's no need to paperclip them together in this discussion.

 

---

 

However, now it all feels almost as though Obsidian simply wants to discourage players from taking violent paths by ultimately making all fights purely optional. The thought would be preposterous of course if not for the current state of the combat system - does Josh really believe he can properly fix this train wreck in progress before release? Is it even possible without tearing down everything done so far? As time goes by my doubts grow. Without participating in BB I can't form my own opinion but what I see in videos is mostly disheartening.

 

So how did we get here? What went wrong?

Edited November 27, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Gairnulf]

 

Whether or not that will be his play style is up to the player though. And scanning the map for the last goblin requires more effort than another gamey habit I've quoted in the past - scanning rooms for loot with the press of a key.

 

 

While it is up to the player, if the difference between doing that or not doing that amounts to a level of experience for your party, that's a rather large difference in difficulty come the hopefully-reasonably-difficult final boss fight. So the player who chooses to not do so is handicapping themselves which means that the designer is actively encouraging you do so. It's up to the player in the same way that deliberately using weapons you're not skilled with is up to the player. Yeah, it's a choice, but you are deliberately discouraged from doing so by the game.

 

Tab-search is its own beast, but I will say that the "effort" that tab-search removes is not an effort I am looking for in any game. A good rule of thumb is to first ask "Does the effort constitute an effort for the players skills, strategy or tactics?" If the answer is no, and let's be clear that in the case of replacing tab-search with manual pixel hunting that is most definitely a "No", then it's almost certainly best ditched.

My proposition about tab-searching is not that it be removed but that it highlights hidden containers based on a behind-the-scenes check that the characters preform, but that's a different subject.

 

By extension of your logic, killing the first gonlin is as much a player's choice as hunting down the last one, and it affects your later capabilities in the same way.

[ctn2003]

++++++++11111111111

[mrmonocle]

I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion. Old school loot is boring as hell and ME1 to ME2 transition proves it. In gothic, for instance, all looted stuff was damaged (good for nothing), only self-forged items were good. Old loot systems must pass away along with old games.

[Sensuki]

I'm sorry but the loot systems in Mass Effect and Gothic have nothing to do with this suggestion.

[extliquani]

Lose the stash and use WYSIWYG.  If someone wants to pick up every item and truck em back to town, let them.  The only real issue I ever had with the gold box games is, that I do not believe all goblins/kobolds et cetera would have a "short sword"  They'd have some kind of improvised or tribal blade, except maybe the leaders and great warriors who would have had looted "nice" blades.

[Matt516]

+1 for delicious, delicious WYSIWYG loot.

[archangel979]

I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion. Old school loot is boring as hell and ME1 to ME2 transition proves it. In gothic, for instance, all looted stuff was damaged (good for nothing), only self-forged items were good. Old loot systems must pass away along with old games.

ME2 had a worse inventory system than ME1. ME1 did look like a RPG (although simplified for consoles) but ME2 was more a FPS already. NOTHING should be taken as a good example from ME2 and ME3 for PoE.

[Namutree]

 does Josh really believe he can properly fix this train wreck in progress before release? Is it even possible without tearing down everything done so far? As time goes by my doubts grow. Without participating in BB I can't form my own opinion but what I see in videos is mostly disheartening.

 

So how did we get here? What went wrong?

 

Don't be disheartened. It's not that combat or play is terrible; it's just that people are highlighting the problems. There is after all; little point in discussing elements of the game that are working fine. Other than maybe to keep things in perspective. Also, name dropping the IE games in the kickstarter made expectations rise to very high levels.

 

Pillars of Eternity at this point looks like it will be a decent game at worst. So don't worry; poe won't be a train wreck.

[Rahkir]

I have to strongly disagree with this suggestion. Old school loot is boring as hell and ME1 to ME2 transition proves it. In gothic, for instance, all looted stuff was damaged (good for nothing), only self-forged items were good. Old loot systems must pass away along with old games.

 

 

I'm sorry but the loot systems in Mass Effect and Gothic have nothing to do with this suggestion.

I have to second Sensuki here; the mass effect loot system was not "what you see is what you get." In fact, it was more like "what you see is NOT what you get." In ME1 you'd essentially fight a group of enemies, and then after combat you'd have have random junk stuffed into your inventory to sort through later. But, that really has nothing to do with what's being proposed here; there's a load of different premises in ME and Gothic absent from PoE. The proposed system is: The player ought to have access to the equipment used by the enemy so that they may choose to use that equipment upon vanquishing the enemy if they so desire.

 

 

I apologize if it was my fault in being too vague, but you misunderstand me. The points I was making were in regard to everything you see always dropping everything it has on it.

 

So, if you kill 73 typical bandits with typical gear, you get 73 sets of leather/chain/padded armor, 73 pairs of boots, 73 rather-used short swords/maces/daggers, 73 sets of smallclothes, 73 non-valuable rings, 73 hats/helmets, 73 cloaks, etc.

The above proposition doesn't lead to the conclusion that 'mostly pointless' loot like socks and underwear need to be dropped (I say mostly because some player out there might really delight in stealing the briefs from all of his enemies, in which case it isn't entirely pointless). That's an example of realism for realism's sake. Yes, the baddies probably have random items with no use under PoE's systems (theoretically, not mechanically; I doubt that each bandit would be programmed to have non-valuable rings, smallclothes, etc.), but having access to those is an entirely different request than the one presented here. Realism and consistency in games is necessary and fundamental. There's some ingrained fear that people have of the words "realistic" or "immersive" as if they automatically equate to boring life simulators full of contrived inanities (like the ability to pick up an examine individual rocks or blades of grass). Enemies having "loot" is realistic. If you could never take anything from enemies, not swords or armor, and there was no lore-based reason for this to occur, it would be unrealistic within the reality of the game. If it is explained that enemies flare out of existence with great bursts of energy consuming all of their gear and so no loot is dropped ever, or if you're playing through a dream sequence in which nothing is real (in the context of the game), the only complaint you can make is a mechanical one. "I like loot mechanics where loot is dropped by enemies, and so I dislike the loot mechanics in dream sequences and universes wherein enemies explode." I personally have no problem with dream sequences void of loot, and so on, as long as there is a consistent in-universe reason for it. I think doing away with loot by way of having creatures explode would be bad design in a game like PoE, but that's a different topic. If there is no explanation in game, and some enemies do drop loot, there is an inconsistency and the inconsistency itself can be questioned. Why can I take this guy's sword, but not that one? Why can Super Awesome Baddie use his flawless perfect weapons against me, but they magically vanish upon his death? If I want to use a Scimitar, why do I have to find and kill one of the X out of Y guys, where X = people who drop scimitars and Y = people who use them? Why can't I simply find one of the Y guys and take it from him?  I don't desire some inane system where you're presented with loads of items that are always junk and are intended for no purpose but to be clutter. That doesn't detract necessarily from my experience; I don't care that you can loot plates and forks in Skyrim (I don't loot them, but I don't care if it's possible), it's just not what I'm talking about here.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Rahkir

[constantine]

Okay..

 

They can't even do 'what you see is what you get loot', as @Sensuki named it.

 

Hmm, they did this b/c of the stash's ability to throw everything in there ?

 

Wait! Is this the very stash that was their idea in the 1st place ?

 

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

Im just disappointed. Being a supporter of the stash, I ask you Obsidian, why do you care if I put 10 items in there or 10,000 ? Isn't it bottomless and with that role? Stick to your ideas, don t act like you see them as trouble.

 

Or are you so lazy as to put gear and items on creatures ? More and more your game is turning into an INSULT to the infinity-engine games rather than a tribute to them.

 

Show some respect to your inspiration for Pillars and to yourself for the promises you made to us back at KS days.

Edited November 29, 2014 by constantine

[Endarire]

While I'm torn between the Fallout 3-style loot system where enemies dropped everything and something like Diablo II where enemies dropped random stuff, I generally prefer foes drop everything - even if I have to sort of all out later.  Did I just find a magic longsword?  It's probably worth picking up, if only to sell.  Did I just find my 1024th plain helmet?  It's probably getting ignored.

[ctn2003]

I found out some things that kinda made me made like why the hell can i pick up spider sacls but not a staff from a evil druid??

[tdphys]

I'm guessing It's probably the crafting + resource gathering idea in POE that necessitates the stash,  since these will all clog up a strictly IE style n-slot inventory.  Since you have an infini-stash you can't have wysiwyg since it's to easy too vacuum everything up,  rather then make the decisions from IE games like,  having to optimize equipment and try and value what's best to bring back and keep (bag of holding not-withstanding).    So why not differentiate and only allow  an infini-stash for unequipable, unconsumable items used for crafting and let all other ones be restricted to the regular inventory.  Now you can go back to wysiwyg. 

 

In fact, treat gems and gold to the stash, etc  and reduce the regular inventory would be a fine idea to me.  Figuring out the best way to equip is part of the challenge IMHO.

Edited November 29, 2014 by tdphys

[archangel979]

While I'm torn between the Fallout 3-style loot system where enemies dropped everything and something like Diablo II where enemies dropped random stuff, I generally prefer foes drop everything - even if I have to sort of all out later.  Did I just find a magic longsword?  It's probably worth picking up, if only to sell.  Did I just find my 1024th plain helmet?  It's probably getting ignored.

In IE games even plain helmets were interesting as you could find those with different design and I would usually take them if I liked them to put on another of my characters.

[ambrusynev]

I would also like to have WYSIWYG loot system. I have always had a weird joy when looting

dead enemies clean  even though most often the loot was very mundane.

With the existence of stash, which in my parties will be the equivalent of pack animal(s), there are no problems with logistics.

So devs pleasr implemement WYSIWYG loot asap.

[archangel979]

I would also like to have WYSIWYG loot system. I have always had a weird joy when looting

dead enemies clean  even though most often the loot was very mundane.

With the existence of stash, which in my parties will be the equivalent of pack animal(s), there are no problems with logistics.

So devs pleasr implemement WYSIWYG loot asap.

I would actually love if indeed there was a pack animal that was implemented into the game, even if it was invulnerable to all damage. It could wait for you outside dungeons and outside Inns and travel behind the party in wilderness.