Saving the Wizard Class

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The wizard class is indisputably the most disastrous class in both concept and implementation of all the classes within Pillars of Eternity. I have been diligently pondering ways of salvaging the class, while staying true to the unique setting constraints of Pillars of Eternity. Linked here are two sister documents detailing those ideas. The first is a PDF explaining the general concepts, and the second is a MS Excel file with lavish pivot tables attempting to demonstrate proof-of-concept for these ideas and rebalanced variables. They are designed to be changed "on-the-fly", and I encourage anyone and everyone to do so.

 

The Recompiled Wizard

 

Basic Overview:

1. Adopt a Soul/Spell Point resource system for the wizard class.
2. Reconfigure to the grimiore to behave in more significant manner to both the class and setting.
3. Suggested mechanisms for mitigating friendly-fire.
4. Rebalanced casting times.
5. Rebalanced and standardized spell damage and spell durations.

I feel that the best aspects of my proposals are that all but one of them are quite mundane changes. I made an effort to have these solutions incorporate existing and functioning PoE systems. I'd like to know what you backers think about these ideas, and start a meaningful discussion about what ideas we can generate to improve this class. Many players--new and old alike, will likely gravitate towards one of the "core four". Pillars of Eternity will not be a success if viewed through the lens of the wizard class as it exists, and that is a dangerous proposition.

[Kjaamor]

I have nothing against any of your proposals, but I think that in many respects you're overcomplicating the issue.

 

The biggest problem I have with the wizard class is the lack of clarity as to whether spells will hit allies or not. The language in spell descriptions is ambiguous and in previous betas (I haven't cast many spells since the first) has been outright inaccurate. The benefits of spells potentially hitting enemies has never been outweighed by the risk of them potentially hitting allies and that is why I almost never use them.

[Bester]

Played as a mage through all IE games many times. It's my favorite class by far... Tried it in PoE. It's no good.

 

And not because of the magic system, but because of an extremely generic spell selection. Wizards should be able to do literally everything - levitation, teleportation, item creation, creature summoning, illusions, charming, divination, the possibilities should be endless and this is what makes wizards interesting. In PoE wizards have none of that. Combat-wise, they've got AOE and ~1 CC spell. And a few literally useless cantrips (I mean it, they ARE USELESS, no tactic exists that could employ them). Such magic...

 

I've been told that Sawyer hates mages and intentionally wanted to nerf them hard. Well, nice job, not only did you nerf them, but you made them boring. You know, you can nerf wizards in combat and still give them tens of spells that'd make them a unique and interesting class. But you didn't do that, either. For the first time, I'm going to have to pick another class that I don't even enjoy playing, because mages are just a really really sad thing to look at.

 

I don't understand if this is intentional (somebody really hating that class) or mages were just given to a guy who doesn't understand/doesn't want to understand the beauty of this class, but the job is done. Congratulations whoever did it.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Bester

[Shevek]

I think the current implementation might be ok if they drastically improve wizard spell power (like double it or maybe more). Wizard spells need to be really intense to stack up well against a Cipher and his infinite spell casting or the Chanter and its Summons/Buffs. Still, if OE doesn't do that, hopefully that is something we players will be able to mod in.

 

Ultimately, for the implementation to be really good, wizards need to be cheap. You need to abuse crap with them - thats why people like them. You want to cast a massive stinking cloud/web combo on things so you can murder them with impunity using cloudkill or archers. You spam skull trap and then watch with glee as some moron explodes into them. You need to have spell sequencers that take down resistances and screw stuff over with Chromatic Orbs.

 

Basically, this is how the player should feel playing a wizard:

 

They need to be a cheap, unfair class. I don't think OE wants to do that though.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Shevek

[Skipperro]

Oh yes, please implement it. I like the whole idea, but I would also like seeing some regeneration of spell points. After all, Josh said in one of the videos, that after certain level wizard will have the ability to cast some spells per encounter or without any limit.

 

Alternatively I would like to see some feats that lowers spell point cost by 1, than 2, than 3 ect. so after reaching certain level wizard can cast lvl 1 spells freely and level 2 spells cost only 1 point ect. It would be perfect. Good job!

[Sarex]

They need to be a cheap, unfair class. I don't think OE wants to do that though.

 

Balance before all!

[Guest 4ward]

i don't play the beta still i'd like to throw in my opinion. I'd like the wizard be something like the sorcerer in Shadows of Amn. Let him cast the spells he has more often. If the melee system would go away the devs might also give him more protection spells. That would lead also to more tactic since there would be spells to breach those protections. I never played the wizard in BG2 it always thought it was a boring class. My favourite spells were stoneskin, melfs minute meteors (ranged +4 weapon) and skulltrap, was fun...

[Sensuki]

One of the (many) things making the wizard a bit droll is the small per-day limit of his spells.

[Labadal]

No death spells, flesh to stone and other spells like that is probably what hurts the class, imo. The wizard isn't all about damage, imo. I guess that is my biggest complaints but we already know there are no spells like that in Pillars.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Part of the problem probably comes from the fact that the spells have to be divided among 5 completely unique magic classes (wizard, druid, priest, cipher and chanter) and even the other classes have semi-magic abilities. The IE games not only had less magic classes (wizards, clerics and druids), but they also shared a lot of spells. By contrast, none of the classes in this game share any spells or abilities.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[constantine]

Dear backers, it is very likely that many mods will exist to fix PoE, the Wizard fix being one of them.

 

 

And Im up for it, I don t like a Campaign World where wizards and arcane magic is so inferior.

[aeonsim]

The only real problem I have with playing the wizard at the moment is that there aren't enough spells per rest. This could easily be fixed by allowing a couple of per encounter uses of spells by the time you get to 6th level.

 

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of every 2 or 3 levels you get 1 per-encounter cast of a spell from any of your lower spell classes. What I mean by this is your level 5 wizard (from the start of the beta) would get 1 per encounter cast of any level 1 or 2 spell (but not level 3) this would get used before you start using up your daily casts. So if you had 2 level 1 and level 2 casts left your effectively have 5 in total with the free cast from the per-encounter option, thus if you only cast 1 spell in a fight from level 1 or 2 at the end of the fight your regain the cast, if you cast 2 however your'd end the fight with one less cast. Then when you get to level 6 your'd gain an extra per-encounter cast so now your'd have 2 free casts from level 1/2 spells per combat. When you get your level 4 spells your then have those two free casts available for your level 1,2 & 3 spells.

 

The spells are primarily combat orientated and there is nothing wrong with that. There probably needs to be some more balance work done but that's it.

 

And not because of the magic system, but because of an extremely generic spell selection. Wizards should be able to do literally everything - levitation, teleportation, item creation, creature summoning, illusions, charming, divination, the possibilities should be endless and this is what makes wizards interesting. In PoE wizards have none of that. Combat-wise, they've got AOE and ~1 CC spell. And a few literally useless cantrips (I mean it, they ARE USELESS, no tactic exists that could employ them). Such magic...

 

You do realise very few games offer proper levitation or teleportation spells (Morrowind for example) the Infinity engine games did not have levitation, or between map teleportation spells. Currently PoE has Illusion spells (defence), Item creation (a staff, pike spell), as well as direct damage, mental manipulation, magic defence spells (spell reflection etc), and short range (combat) teleportation which is a good proportion of the IE game spell types.

[archangel979]

I don't like these suggestions. I don't wizard spells to stop being strategic. I don't want a sorcerer instead of a wizard.

 

Wizard spells need to be more powerful, there need to be many more options more similar to IE spells and he needs to have more encounter spells.

[Doppelschwert]

Thanks for the interesting writeup, however...

 

The only real problem I have with playing the wizard at the moment is that there aren't enough spells per rest. This could easily be fixed by allowing a couple of per encounter uses of spells by the time you get to 6th level.

 

What I'd like to see is something along the lines of every 2 or 3 levels you get 1 per-encounter cast of a spell from any of your lower spell classes. What I mean by this is your level 5 wizard (from the start of the beta) would get 1 per encounter cast of any level 1 or 2 spell (but not level 3) this would get used before you start using up your daily casts. So if you had 2 level 1 and level 2 casts left your effectively have 5 in total with the free cast from the per-encounter option, thus if you only cast 1 spell in a fight from level 1 or 2 at the end of the fight your regain the cast, if you cast 2 however your'd end the fight with one less cast. Then when you get to level 6 your'd gain an extra per-encounter cast so now your'd have 2 free casts from level 1/2 spells per combat. When you get your level 4 spells your then have those two free casts available for your level 1,2 & 3 spells.

 

The spells are primarily combat orientated and there is nothing wrong with that. There probably needs to be some more balance work done but that's it.

 

...this is all we need.

 

Besides, wizards in the IE games where only cheap when you rest-spammed, they got different exp tables to level slower and had several other disadvantages. I don't even understand what's so fun about the mage fights in IE if you just spam hard counters until one of the mages runs out of spells.

The only fun part about mages in BG2 that I remember was punching them in the face with my almost magic immune monk.

[Kjaamor]

Also, while the concept was nice, the whole "Arquebuses blast through Arcane Veil while other ranged weapons can't" is currently the most redundant piece of PoE lore yet.

 

 

Dear backers, it is very likely that many mods will exist to fix PoE, the Wizard fix being one of them.


And Im up for it, I don t like a Campaign World where wizards and arcane magic is so inferior.

 

I'm not so bothered, truth be told. The last BG2 playthrough I did was with a magic-based party and the power of mages is immense. I'm not one for the stick of balance +1 particularly, but let's be clear, Mages have very much had their time in the spotlight and don't necessarily have to be all powerful in this game too.

 

Mages just need to be functional enough that I don't look at my party and go "Hmm. If I kill off the wizard it might crash the save, but it could allow me to make a fourth rogue..."

 

Of course, what would be an awesome mechanic, would be if Mages were the most powerful class, but when grouped acted in the opposite manner to Priests - The more there are the less powerful each individual becomes. However at the current rate I'm doubtful that the multi-priest concept will make it into gameplay, much less a new, rebalanced wizard one.

[Shevek]

I disagree that the fix for wizard is just to let them cast more. Wizards are about infrequent awesomeness. Basically, they should cast crap once in a while and when they do, it should be game changing. I say keep the current amount of casts and double (or more) the power of the spells.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Shevek

[aeonsim]

I disagree that the fix for wizard is just to let them cast more. Wizards are about infrequent awesomeness. Basically, they should cast crap once in a while and when they do, it should be game changing. I say keep the current amount of casts and double (or more) the power of the spells.

 

Which makes them very boring to play it as it becomes a case of do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, do nothing, BOOM everything dies. Not at all interesting for people who use Wizards/mages as there main char. I find a wizard is a lot more fun to play when they regularly do stuff that makes a difference, and have abilities that allow them to manipulate the battlefield or do certain types of damage that work better, regularly not just once or twice a fight.

[Shevek]

Well, in the IE games, the Wizard wasn't casting every fight (constantly) unless you rest spammed (or were in the high levels). By design, Wizards are very slow firing glass cannons.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Shevek

[Quadrone]

I disagree that the fix for wizard is just to let them cast more. Wizards are about infrequent awesomeness. Basically, they should cast crap once in a while and when they do, it should be game changing. I say keep the current amount of casts and double (or more) the power of the spells.

 

Have to agree with Shevek here, Wizards aren't often discribed as Glass Cannons for nothing. Slow, frail but with great effect.

So I too would prefer it if spell casting really makes a difference, even just a single one.

Right now spells feel overbalanced, as not even the highest level spell available really stands out even when used on low tier enemies. 2-3 spells used in concert should really give that "I love it when a plan comes together" feeling.

[Guest 4ward]

Josh said back in September that there will be bonus spells from class-specific items and talents. Has anyone encountered something akin to magic wands or ring of wizardry in the beta? Any talents that give you bonus spells?

[Shevek]

There are talents that give bonuses to elemental dmg.

[Sensuki]

Yep there are, you can buy one bonus level 1, 2, 3 and 4 spell.

[Stun]

Played as a mage through all IE games many times. It's my favorite class by far... Tried it in PoE. It's no good.

 

And not because of the magic system, but because of an extremely generic spell selection. Wizards should be able to do literally everything - levitation, teleportation, item creation, creature summoning, illusions, charming, divination, the possibilities should be endless and this is what makes wizards interesting. In PoE wizards have none of that. Combat-wise, they've got AOE and ~1 CC spell. And a few literally useless cantrips (I mean it, they ARE USELESS, no tactic exists that could employ them). Such magic...

Yep, and this was something that people complained about on Day 1 of the Beta release. There are only 2 types of wizard spells in PoE: Damage and Buff. Lame. Very, very soulless and <ahem> Modern </ahem>. This is one aspect of PoE that isn't doing a very good job of spiritually successor-ing the IE games, where mages were absolutely amazing.

 

But there's a reason for all this. We'll talk about it below.

 

I don't understand if this is intentional (somebody really hating that class) or mages were just given to a guy who doesn't understand/doesn't want to understand the beauty of this class, but the job is done. Congratulations whoever did it.

Of course it was intentional. When you prostrate before the shrine of Balance, it becomes a sin to do what you're asking them to do. For example:

 

1) You can't give Mages summoning spells because then you'd render both your chanter and your fighter redundant.

2) You can't give Mages invisibility spells because then you'd render stealth redundant.

3) You can't give Mages save-or-die spells because then you'd render the entire DPS-combat spreadsheet redundant

4) You can't give Mages spells like Dimension Door because that would unbalance the engagement mechanic, and it would trump those fancy Ranger and Rogue escape skillz.

5) You can't give mages 'hard counter' spells like Protection from Petrification, Spell immunity, and globe of invulnerability because that would be 'unfair' to... um.... monks, and barbarians and any other class that doesn't get spells.

 

 

This is an OLD, OLD gaming philosophy issue that some of us have been debating with Josh on since way way back. He simply does not understand the true appeal of magic and role playing. In his mind a game that makes all classes "equal" MUST be better than a game that makes some classes more powerful than others because, you know, if you make mages too powerful then everyone will just play mages. In the meantime we *role-players* shake our heads and say: WTF!

[anameforobsidian]

I think people are:

 

A. Drastically overestimating the appeal of IE wizards.  IE wizards are far more fun when you don't use them to their full potential.  Sword Coast Stratagems makes Baldur's Gate 2 pretty unfun about halfway through.  Eventually the tactic is: Send your front line character with the highest saves and MR to fight them by themselves for five to thirty minutes.  Have them drink a potion every five or so minutes.  Wait for their protections to run out.  Kill them in 1-10 hits.

 

B.  Drastically overestimating the appeal of unbalanced class based games.  What, you mean that my bard is deadweight compared to the alternatives?  Why even have a bard?  What, druids are like clerics with several of their most useful spells taken away?

 

C.  Forgetting that the role you're playing isn't that of god / rulebreaker.  Do some work and look for glitches / gross imbalances if you want to break the game, don't let mages easy mode it for you.

 

D.  Forgetting about how much being outside the sweet spot and rest-spamming sucked.

 

E.  Forgetting how much hard counters suck.  Wait, there are basiliks outside of Durlag's tower?  Looks like its a reload.  Hard counters make the fights either more luck based (you roll past the hard counter), or they take tactics out of the fight (what you do in the fight doesn't matter, only how you prepared for it and how you roll).

 

F.  Forgetting how much hard saves suck.  Some people complain about being oneshotted by enemies in the Beta, but Abu-dhalzim's Horrid Wilting could one-shot parties who found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Congratulations, it's reload and run away or hope for a save.

 

G.  Forgetting how much Baldur's Gate 2 fudged the class dynamics to make them work.  Minsc has insanely high strength and a free Beserker rage.  The PC gets several of the best spells for warrior priests, it made Inquisitors far more attractive.  Paladins get the Caromyser (and full plate -2 early) to make up for being **** at melee compared to fighters.  Jan gets free exploding ammo to make up for being bad in combat, etc.  Enemy wizards were generally much higher than the party and did not use the full range of their abilities, because the full range of their abilities sucked.

 

H.  Just plain complaining because wizards don't have all the powers.  Too bad.  Wizards have all the powers types weren't the only backers.

[Stun]

Oh indeed. I've been playing, replaying, and going back to playing the BG games for about 15 years now. Why? Well, I thought the reason was obvious. Because I love those games. Always have. Because just about everything about them was fun.... especially the combat.

 

I must have just forgotten how much they sucked.