The Fall of the Wall

[Agiel]

I see no reason why not all (well... *most*) of us can agree that the peaceful re-unification of a country after nearly a half-century is unequivocally a good thing? I watch footage of the celebrations that fateful night and images of the "Lichtgrenze" commemorating it and it just speaks to me. Yes there is "Ostalgie" and some economic hardship in the aftermath but I would bet my life every single German who was there at the Wall that night would say at the end of their lives they would do it all over again and that they'd never miss that opportunity. It makes me hope that in spite of all the pain that would follow that I live to see the same thing happen to the Korean DMZ:

 

http://english.kookmin.ac.kr/site/about_kmu/newNhot/press.htm?mode=view&num=8

Edited November 11, 2014 by Agiel

[Namutree]

I see no reason why not all (well... *most*) of us can agree that the peaceful re-unification of a country after nearly a half-century is unequivocally a good thing? I watch footage of the celebrations that fateful night and images of the "Lichtgrenze" commemorating it and it just speaks to me. Yes there is "Ostalgie" and some economic hardship in the aftermath but I would bet my life every single German who was there at the Wall that night would say at the end of their lives they would do it all over again and that they'd never miss that opportunity. It makes me hope that in spite of all the pain that would follow that I live to see the same thing happen to the Korean DMZ:

 

http://english.kookmin.ac.kr/site/about_kmu/newNhot/press.htm?mode=view&num=8

I doubt there will ever be unification in Korea.

[BruceVC]

 

I see no reason why not all (well... *most*) of us can agree that the peaceful re-unification of a country after nearly a half-century is unequivocally a good thing? I watch footage of the celebrations that fateful night and images of the "Lichtgrenze" commemorating it and it just speaks to me. Yes there is "Ostalgie" and some economic hardship in the aftermath but I would bet my life every single German who was there at the Wall that night would say at the end of their lives they would do it all over again and that they'd never miss that opportunity. It makes me hope that in spite of all the pain that would follow that I live to see the same thing happen to the Korean DMZ:

 

http://english.kookmin.ac.kr/site/about_kmu/newNhot/press.htm?mode=view&num=8

I doubt there will ever be unification in Korea.

 

 

I think there would be an almost immediate reunification of the Koreas if you  removed the influence of the Kim family and allowed the NK people to decide there own political future ?

Edited November 11, 2014 by BruceVC

[Namutree]

 

 

I see no reason why not all (well... *most*) of us can agree that the peaceful re-unification of a country after nearly a half-century is unequivocally a good thing? I watch footage of the celebrations that fateful night and images of the "Lichtgrenze" commemorating it and it just speaks to me. Yes there is "Ostalgie" and some economic hardship in the aftermath but I would bet my life every single German who was there at the Wall that night would say at the end of their lives they would do it all over again and that they'd never miss that opportunity. It makes me hope that in spite of all the pain that would follow that I live to see the same thing happen to the Korean DMZ:

 

http://english.kookmin.ac.kr/site/about_kmu/newNhot/press.htm?mode=view&num=8

I doubt there will ever be unification in Korea.

 

 

I think there would be an almost immediate reunification of the Koreas if removed the influence of the Kim family and allowed the NK people to decide there own political future ?

 

There are international forces opposed to unification. Even if the Kim family went away; they would be replaced. Also, there is a growing portion SK's who don't want unification. The longer this goes on; the less likely unification becomes.  

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I see no reason why not all (well... *most*) of us can agree that the peaceful re-unification of a country after nearly a half-century is unequivocally a good thing? I watch footage of the celebrations that fateful night and images of the "Lichtgrenze" commemorating it and it just speaks to me. Yes there is "Ostalgie" and some economic hardship in the aftermath but I would bet my life every single German who was there at the Wall that night would say at the end of their lives they would do it all over again and that they'd never miss that opportunity. It makes me hope that in spite of all the pain that would follow that I live to see the same thing happen to the Korean DMZ:

 

http://english.kookmin.ac.kr/site/about_kmu/newNhot/press.htm?mode=view&num=8

I doubt there will ever be unification in Korea.

 

 

I think there would be an almost immediate reunification of the Koreas if removed the influence of the Kim family and allowed the NK people to decide there own political future ?

 

There are international forces opposed to unification. Even if the Kim family went away; they would be replaced. Also, there is a growing portion SK's who don't want unification. The longer this goes on; the less likely unification becomes.  

 

What international forces are opposed to the Koreas unification aspirations? I find that interesting, do you have any links?

[Oerwinde]

China would be the obvious one. South Korea would be the dominant political force in a unified Korea due to its economic might, which means China loses its ally in North Korea, especially once the North Koreans realize it was China propping up the North Korean government for so long.

[BruceVC]

China would be the obvious one. South Korea would be the dominant political force in a unified Korea due to its economic might, which means China loses its ally in North Korea, especially once the North Koreans realize it was China propping up the North Korean government for so long.

 

I doubt a unified Korea would somehow surpass China's meteoric economic rise or status? Also the Chinese have long been embarrassed by several utterances and actions of NK. So I really think a unified Korea is something that would suit China in the long term?

[Malcador]

Somewhat related to the topic, but another sign that the average football fan is garbage - http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/lukas-podolski-comments-huge-historical-4602510

 

Edited November 11, 2014 by Malcador

[Gorth]

Somewhat related to the topic, but another sign that the average football fan is garbage - http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/lukas-podolski-comments-huge-historical-4602510

 

Oh dear...

 

Almost as fun as one of those big US newspapers reporting how this Australian Team, the "All Blacks" beat some Chicago team in a PR game of Rugby (They are the Kiwi national team, not Aussies).

[exodiark]

I don't think China will mind unified Korea as long as:

- Korea doesn't collapse from the unification. People in North Korea are poor and brainwashed, and there are millions of them. Who's gonna pay for their rehabilitation and integration to 21st century? And expect rising crime rate and various social problems. In all cases, status quo is better than losing a wealthy trading partner (SK).

- North Koreans stay at North Korea during the collapse. If you're a leader of 1.3 billions of people, the last thing you want is *more* people, which are poor and brainwashed as a bonus.

- The US get out of SK, or at least stay where they are today and not expanding to NK territories.

 

As you can see, reason 1 and 2 are also the reason why SK govt and Japan govt don't want reunified Korea, not just China really.

Edited November 11, 2014 by exodiark

[Gfted1]

Also, there is a growing portion SK's who don't want unification. The longer this goes on; the less likely unification becomes.

Cant blame them. It would be like the US absorbing Mexico. It would become a huge parasitic organism.

[Guard Dog]

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

[BruceVC]

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

[HoonDing]

When a word ends in -ism, there's a 63% chance of being evil.

[obyknven]

 

The Fall of the Wall = Fall of True Germany. Osties, DDR are descendants of Prussia and Prussia is true creators of German Empire. It's so easy to note by comparing of DDR military forces (who beat US arses in Vietnam war ) and pathetic Bundeswehr who even can't protect homeland in case of war.

http://youtu.be/oldMTT_4k4s

 

 

It's Ostalgie thread now

DDR forces fought in Vietnam ? I'm sure you have something ready for when people say 'No, they literally didn't', so lets hear it.

 

 

Can find this only in Deutsch (or Russian)  text's

"China, Osteuropa und der Vietnam-Krieg aus der Sicht der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik" von Joachim Schröter (Auszug aus einem Vortrag auf einem wissenschaftliche Seminar vom 24. bis 26.03.2004 in Peking; mit freundlicher Genehmigung; s.a. verband-fuer-internationale-politik.info)

Vietman 1965

"Mit Beginn des Bombenkrieges der US Airforce im Februar 1965 wurden die Luftverteidigungskräfte der DRV vor eine unvorbereitete Aufgabe gestellt. Die US Airforce operierte z.B. in Höhen, die von den verfügbaren bodengestützten vietnamesischen Abwehrmitteln nicht erreicht werden konnten. Die Sowjetunion und andere sozialistische Staaten stellten zwar moderne Luftverteidigungsmittel zur Verfügung, darunter moderne Luftabwehrraketen und die dazugehörigen elektronischen Systeme zur frühzeitigen Zielerfassung, Zielverfolgung und effektiver Zielbekämpfung. Doch es gab zu dieser Zeit in den vietnamesischen Streitkräften nur sehr wenige Spezialisten, die eine solche Technik handhaben und im Komplex führen konnten.

In dieser Situation bot die DDR die Entsendung von Freiwilligen aus den Reihen der Luftverteidigungskräfte der NVA an, die die Ausbildung vietnamesischer Offiziere und Soldaten de facto nach dem Prinzip learning by doing übernehmen sollten. Die DDR verfügte im Warschauer Vertrag über das dichteste Luftverteidigungssystem und hatte einen anerkannt hohen Ausbildungsstand.

Die DRV lehnte den Einsatz von Freiwilligen ab, bat jedoch um Ausbildungshilfe und um ausgewählte Spezialisten für den Aufbau und die Organisation eines modernen Luftverteidigungssystems. 1965 entsandte die NVA Berater für den Aufbau und die Organisation eines komplexen Luftverteidigungssystems, darunter Spezialisten für den Einsatz von Luftabwehrraketen. In dieser Gruppe befand sich Oberst J. John, der dann von Oktober 1967 bis 1970 Militärattaché in Hanoi war. Sein Gehilfe, Oberst Böhme, war ebenfalls Offizier der Luftstreitkräfte, der dann bis 1973 sein Nachfolger als Militärattaché wurde.

Parallel dazu wurden vietnamesische Offiziere in der DDR ausgebildet. Ein ernstes Problem war deren begrenzte physische Leistungsfähigkeit bei der Lastenbewegung. Die vietnamesischen Luftverteidigungstruppen benötigten darum z.T. den doppelten Personalbestand, um die technisch-taktischen Normen der NVA zu bewältigen.

Trotz aller Schwierigkeiten gelang es in kurzer Zeit, in Nordvietnam ein Luftverteidigungssystem aufzubauen, das auch nach westlicher Beurteilung nach der DDR das zweitdichteste System der östlichen Seite war. Die vietnamesischen Offiziere und Soldaten erwiesen sich nicht nur als extrem einsatzbereit, sondern auch als außerordentlich schnell lernfähig, wodurch der geplante Zeitaufwand unterboten werden konnte."

US lost in this war ~4100 warplanes and 5100 helicopters. I think NPA make quite good revenge ( during  WW2 allied bombings of German cities cause 300 000 - 600 000 civilian deaths).

[Namutree]

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

 

I think (I'm no expert; any commies feel free to correct me) that they intend to force people to work. Thus everyone will work hard and be productive.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

 

I think (I'm no expert; any commies feel free to correct me) that they intend to force people to work. Thus everyone will work hard and be productive.

 

 

Well. You're supposed to be enlightened enough and 'caring' enough to know and want to contribute to the greater good as determined by your intellectual betters. If you are unenlightened or if you're of the uncaring sort then you'll be deemed a thought criminal and assigned to one of the many depopulation programs, and yes of course likely to suffer in a forced labor camp while you await your ultimate fate for the better of society.

 

Your average commie would never admit this, and in their defense they likely didn't think far enough ahead or just plain weren't smart enough to see what's on their glorious utopian horizon. The term 'useful idiot' applies to well over 90% of them I'd say, with the remaining folks earning the term 'evil mother@#%(ers'

[HoonDing]

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

 

In commie Utopia people work solely for the benefit of others, not for themselves.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

 

In commie Utopia people work solely for the benefit of others, not for themselves.

 

That's stupid. They should stop being stupid.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Namutree

[Oerwinde]

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

there's a difference between hardworking and ambitious though. I agree that someone who works his ass off builds a business etc should have a higher standard of living than a burger flipper, but someone who works his ass off as a burger flipper shouldn't have to live in poverty.

[Orogun01]

 

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

 

I completely agree, I see how totally lazy and unmotivated some people are on a daily basis. Why should they now have the same benefits that people who work hard and are productive have?

 

In commie Utopia people work solely for the benefit of others, not for themselves.

 

Actually in commie Utopia you work because the meager rations that the government gives are more fit for purposes other than consumption. That and you still have to pay for them.

[Namutree]

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

there's a difference between hardworking and ambitious though. I agree that someone who works his ass off builds a business etc should have a higher standard of living than a burger flipper, but someone who works his ass off as a burger flipper shouldn't have to live in poverty.

 

It all depends on how productive he's being. If a guy works his ass off but achieves next to nothing; then he deserves next to nothing. It's not about effort; it's about results. 

[Valsuelm]

 

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

there's a difference between hardworking and ambitious though. I agree that someone who works his ass off builds a business etc should have a higher standard of living than a burger flipper, but someone who works his ass off as a burger flipper shouldn't have to live in poverty.

 

It all depends on how productive he's being. If a guy works his ass off but achieves next to nothing; then he deserves next to nothing. It's not about effort; it's about results. 

 

 

Eh... in principle I agree. However the world is a bit contrived in many respects, places, and situations, for it to be that simple.

 

One example:

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a sweat shop slave factory worker. Who is working their asses off for a ubercrappy wage, doing the same work as someone in pick your favorite 'well to do' western nation, yet seeing a lot less for it, and with no reasonable avenue to earn more. While the reasons for this are varied, communism isn't the answer, capitalism isn't the problem. But at the end of the day, there is something wrong here, and I think most of us would agree such a person should earn more for their labor.

[Guard Dog]

 

One of the biggest problems with communisim is that it discourages achivement. I paid my own way through college, started four businesses one of which became successful. I've made a nice living for myself and worked very hard to do it. Why shouldn't I have a better standard of living as a reward for that? Would I have done all that if at the end of the day I have the same quality of life as the guy flipping burgers?

there's a difference between hardworking and ambitious though. I agree that someone who works his ass off builds a business etc should have a higher standard of living than a burger flipper, but someone who works his ass off as a burger flipper shouldn't have to live in poverty.

 

I'm not saying the burger flipper doesn't work hard. But people should be paid based on the value of their labor. The value of a burger flipper is X, the value of an RF Engineer is Y. If Y is more appealing then stop doing a job that pays X and do what is required to get the job that pays Y. I am the living proof that any fool can do it of they want to. The burger flipper should not expect the government to apologize to him for his lack of motivation to improve himself by forcing his employer to pay him more than the value of his service is worth.

 

I used to cut grass at a horse farm in Florida. I didn't want to do that my whole life so I joined the military, went to college and got better paying jobs. Anyone can do it. Heck we have free adult vocational education programs here in Tennessee. If the burger flipper is tired of earning X maybe he should check those out.