Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition

[Orogun01]

 

To Bruce from like 5 pages ago: The idea that someone need to leave the room whenever someone enters that behave poorly (instead of just ignoring them or stating that you don't condone their actions) is ridiculous, again suggest something that actually can happen, cause no one can keep track of jumping from one hashtag to another every ten seconds when a random troll types "I'll kill you lol" or the likes. I said this before and I'll say this again, if you want us to deal with harassment in others ways than we're doing, suggest ways we can actually deal with it, I'm not even asking that you hold yourself to your own impossible standards, or whatever sane standards you could possibly come up with, I'm saying that you either come up with a way we can deal with the issue that isn't worse than what we're doing, and isn't just effectively us shutting up and waiting for all trolls to vanish from the face of the earth.

 

You asked me a question and I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, now you don't like my answer?

 

I'll explain it a different way, end of the day if you want to do something about harassment and abuse on the Internet all you can do make personal stands and make a decision on principle, you are not necessarily going to impact change but that's not the point . Because no one controls the Internet. So what does this mean? As I mentioned distance yourself from GG, but explain the reasons why when you make this break. This does not mean you are suggesting every person on GG is guilty of abuse and misogyny. But GG is tainted, so rather don't support the overall movement. You can still discuss issues with gaming journalists but what you guys fail to grasp, despite the fact I repeat it regularly, is that GG won't achieve anything because of its lack of real support from the gaming industry

 

And if you disagree with me then can you explain what changes GG has effectively been responsible for implementing? Because for me all it seems to do is polarize discussions?

 

And then going back to what else you can do. If for example you are on a website that allows bigotry, like RPGCodex, then challenge people who make homophobic, rape jokes  or anti-Semitic comments. Its not easy I know that, its much simpler just to say nothing. But once again when you make a decision around principle that becomes the salient reasons why you may or may not criticize certain comments. Never ask yourself  "what will people think of me if I say this " ? (and of course sometimes this is a consideration )

 

Finally the objective of challenging abusive behaviour on the Internet is also to use your discretion, so there are times where you just have to let certain comments slide.

 

Considering how many GG supporters are in the same position you were when you decided to stick by feminism and SJWs when you found out about their harassment, I would have thought you were more empathetic as to why people stick by GG despite is faults.

 

Despite the harassment games themselves are not misogynistic, and right now GG is what is standing from feminist censorship of medium. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

To Bruce from like 5 pages ago: The idea that someone need to leave the room whenever someone enters that behave poorly (instead of just ignoring them or stating that you don't condone their actions) is ridiculous, again suggest something that actually can happen, cause no one can keep track of jumping from one hashtag to another every ten seconds when a random troll types "I'll kill you lol" or the likes. I said this before and I'll say this again, if you want us to deal with harassment in others ways than we're doing, suggest ways we can actually deal with it, I'm not even asking that you hold yourself to your own impossible standards, or whatever sane standards you could possibly come up with, I'm saying that you either come up with a way we can deal with the issue that isn't worse than what we're doing, and isn't just effectively us shutting up and waiting for all trolls to vanish from the face of the earth.

 

You asked me a question and I gave you a perfectly reasonable answer, now you don't like my answer?

 

I'll explain it a different way, end of the day if you want to do something about harassment and abuse on the Internet all you can do make personal stands and make a decision on principle, you are not necessarily going to impact change but that's not the point . Because no one controls the Internet. So what does this mean? As I mentioned distance yourself from GG, but explain the reasons why when you make this break. This does not mean you are suggesting every person on GG is guilty of abuse and misogyny. But GG is tainted, so rather don't support the overall movement. You can still discuss issues with gaming journalists but what you guys fail to grasp, despite the fact I repeat it regularly, is that GG won't achieve anything because of its lack of real support from the gaming industry

 

And if you disagree with me then can you explain what changes GG has effectively been responsible for implementing? Because for me all it seems to do is polarize discussions?

 

And then going back to what else you can do. If for example you are on a website that allows bigotry, like RPGCodex, then challenge people who make homophobic, rape jokes  or anti-Semitic comments. Its not easy I know that, its much simpler just to say nothing. But once again when you make a decision around principle that becomes the salient reasons why you may or may not criticize certain comments. Never ask yourself  "what will people think of me if I say this " ? (and of course sometimes this is a consideration )

 

Finally the objective of challenging abusive behaviour on the Internet is also to use your discretion, so there are times where you just have to let certain comments slide.

 

Considering how many GG supporters are in the same position you were when you decided to stick by feminism and SJWs when you found out about their harassment, I would have thought you were more empathetic as to why people stick by GG despite is faults.

 

Despite the harassment games themselves are not misogynistic, and right now GG is what is standing from feminist censorship of medium. 

 

 

I can completely understand people standing by GG, I would also stand by a movement that aligned with me ideologically

 

But I can't understand why people would stand by a movement that has been hijacked by some of its members to push a certain agenda and that has tainted the ideological objective

 

And just to be clear can you give me examples where feminist opinions have lead to actual censorship in the gaming industry. I know there is an amount of  criticism of certain games but where has this lead to actual games now changing in  way that has effected you personally. I can't think of any examples, so if you look at a game like GTAV it still exists and is still very popular despite the calls of sexism and misogyny ( and for the record I really enjoy the GTA franchise )

[kirottu]

Picture of journalist who either favourited and retweeted these bullying tweets:

http://imgur.com/2o6lNXc

 

This with what Orogun1 posted is damn depressing. These guys are openly encouraging bullying and the Guardian wont even talk with pro-GG crowd and labels them as idiots.

 

I think I'm going to take a few day break from this. I thought when this started to hit mainstream media I would get to see more balanced articles, you know, reporters talking to the both sides, but no. No, no no. Lazy reporting what others have reported or even denouncing pro-GG crowd, like the Guardian. 

 

And why in the hell everyone keeps talking about Zoe? She is as important to GamerGate as Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

[BruceVC]

 

Picture of journalist who either favourited and retweeted these bullying tweets:

http://imgur.com/2o6lNXc

 

This with what Orogun1 posted is damn depressing. These guys are openly encouraging bullying and the Guardian wont even talk with pro-GG crowd and labels them as idiots.

 

I think I'm going to take a few day break from this. I thought when this started to hit mainstream media I would get to see more balanced articles, you know, reporters talking to the both sides, but no. No, no no. Lazy reporting what others have reported or even denouncing pro-GG crowd, like the Guardian. 

 

And why in the hell everyone keeps talking about Zoe? She is as important to GamerGate as Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

 

 

I agree with you, I think it is childish and unhelpful to suggest that all the people who support GG are " nerds who should be shamed into submission"'

 

 

There are many people who support GG for reasons that are very valid to them and these types of insults must just be ignored

[licketysplit]

Calling #GG tainted is a cop out Bruce. Same blanket accusations that'd cut no ice with racist or sexist remarks.

Edited October 17, 2014 by licketysplit

[Orogun01]

@Bruce: The article and the links to the article covering IGF corruption should address your question.

http://www.takuchat.com/indie-developer-lost-connections-just-re-posting-video-gamergate/

 

The reason why GTAV  and games like it are still coming out is because the media doesn't control the consumers and therefore publishers keep going for what sells, the indie scene is however a different story. They don't have the resources and are much susceptible and vulnerable to influence by gaming journalism, as their promotion depends a lot on the connections they have.

 

It is another matter entirely when journalist use their position to be arbiters of what is acceptable or not.

 

Edit: Also, the fact that feminism has been co opted by some of the more radical elements doesn't seem to bother you. Why would GG become disturbed by what are small extremist elements using the tag.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Orogun01

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Picture of journalist who either favourited and retweeted these bullying tweets:

http://imgur.com/2o6lNXc

 

This with what Orogun1 posted is damn depressing. These guys are openly encouraging bullying and the Guardian wont even talk with pro-GG crowd and labels them as idiots.

 

I think I'm going to take a few day break from this. I thought when this started to hit mainstream media I would get to see more balanced articles, you know, reporters talking to the both sides, but no. No, no no. Lazy reporting what others have reported or even denouncing pro-GG crowd, like the Guardian.

 

And why in the hell everyone keeps talking about Zoe? She is as important to GamerGate as Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

Yeah, in all honesty this is getting me to wonder if bothering with ethics has been a waste of time. I'm starting to doubt if the game press has any integrity or moral fiber to speak of, and maybe I would be much better off ignoring them completely.

[BruceVC]

@Bruce: The article and the links to the article covering IGF corruption should address your question.

http://www.takuchat.com/indie-developer-lost-connections-just-re-posting-video-gamergate/

 

The reason why GTAV  and games like it are still coming out is because the media doesn't control the consumers and therefore publishers keep going for what sells, the indie scene is however a different story. They don't have the resources and are much susceptible and vulnerable to influence by gaming journalism, as their promotion depends a lot on the connections they have.

 

It is another matter entirely when journalist use their position to be arbiters of what is acceptable or not.

 

Edit: Also, the fact that feminism has been co opted by some of the more radical elements doesn't seem to bother you. Why would GG become disturbed by what are small extremist elements using the tag.

 

I want to respond to this detail Orog, I am just about to start our weekly sales meetings so I'll comment later

[licketysplit]

They're impulsive, spoiled brats. Thought that long before #GG. All I want is for them to quit demonizing gamers. Suck all the d*ck you want, take all the cash you want, just shut the f*ck up with your SJW preaching.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Disgusting. So these 'journalists' are all okay with bullying and harassment and openly admit it. And you have some people on these forums all silent. But I'm sure they'll be back when the dirt is on #GG.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Fighter]

 

^Let's not forget Fallout New Vegas, which apparently encourages the player to kill scantily clad women.

 

But in all fairness, you're only killing them so you can put more clothes on them, like Jesus intended.

 

Oh and Jezebel is willing to pay for masturbation material.

 

 

 

 

 

Picture of journalist who either favourited and retweeted these bullying tweets:

http://imgur.com/2o6lNXc

 

This with what Orogun1 posted is damn depressing. These guys are openly encouraging bullying and the Guardian wont even talk with pro-GG crowd and labels them as idiots.

 

I think I'm going to take a few day break from this. I thought when this started to hit mainstream media I would get to see more balanced articles, you know, reporters talking to the both sides, but no. No, no no. Lazy reporting what others have reported or even denouncing pro-GG crowd, like the Guardian. 

 

And why in the hell everyone keeps talking about Zoe? She is as important to GamerGate as Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

 

 

LOL. The irony of professionals acting like the worst 1% of GG is just precious.

[Meshugger]

 

 

Much of this drama comes from these journalists (SJWs or not) trying to politicize games

 

 

Is how you put it, while I prefer "a rather large number of gamers objecting on principle to any kind of academic discussion about games".

 

I mean, if you feel your opinions and priorities don't match that of games journalists', therefore their articles offer nothing of value to you - by all means, refrain from giving them money and exposure. But decrying games journalism as "corrupted by the leftist agenda" which therefore has to be torn down leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth. Why can't we just let the free market decide whether there is enough demand for gaming websites with a SJW outlook to make them profitable?

 

 

Except that is not what happened. It was just not any academic discussion with panels discussing the merits of online gaming, communication and building communities, or workshops about knowledge-building in gaming and interactive environments. You know, what academia usually does: having a platform to increase the overall knowledge of given subject. Instead gaming magazines told the readers as it was a normal form conduct that they are culture, and that it should die (granted it had been brewing with all kinds of similar articles before that, but it was the tipping point). Not only that, leaks showed that they were all collaborating with a common agenda, you know, a conspiracy. Of course all discussion about this on their forums and friends forums were quickly silenced as well.

 

If they had been open about this with honest and frank language, like adults do, this gamergate would've never happened. But instead they were planning and reacting like mentally stunted teenagers, and thus everything developed in an organic procedure.

[Meshugger]

Well, seems like the Guardian is now part of the axis of evil

http://theralphretort.com/internal-email-shows-guardian-mind-made-gamergate/

 

Old media seems to have the same despicable modus operandi.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

Much of this drama comes from these journalists (SJWs or not) trying to politicize games

 

 

Is how you put it, while I prefer "a rather large number of gamers objecting on principle to any kind of academic discussion about games".

 

I mean, if you feel your opinions and priorities don't match that of games journalists', therefore their articles offer nothing of value to you - by all means, refrain from giving them money and exposure. But decrying games journalism as "corrupted by the leftist agenda" which therefore has to be torn down leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth. Why can't we just let the free market decide whether there is enough demand for gaming websites with a SJW outlook to make them profitable?

 

 

Except that is not what happened. It was just not any academic discussion with panels discussing the merits of online gaming, communication and building communities, or workshops about knowledge-building in gaming and interactive environments. You know, what academia usually does: having a platform to increase the overall knowledge of given subject. Instead gaming magazines told the readers as it was a normal form conduct that they are culture, and that it should die (granted it had been brewing with all kinds of similar articles before that, but it was the tipping point). Not only that, leaks showed that they were all collaborating with a common agenda, you know, a conspiracy. Of course all discussion about this on their forums and friends forums were quickly silenced as well.

 

If they had been open about this with honest and frank language, like adults do, this gamergate would've never happened. But instead they were planning and reacting like mentally stunted teenagers, and thus everything developed in an organic procedure.

 

 

So now your problem is censorship, not "politicizing games". Make up your mind already.

[Zoraptor]

Pftt, you can have more than one problem, you don't have to pick one, and you don't have to repeat them every time. Especially when one follows from the other, 'politicising games' is just another form of censorship- wouldn't be, if it were done positively, but all too often it's insisting that [game] should have a female option or similar, no matter how inane a suggestion, and trying to organise negative press and boycotts is demands are not met.

 

'Academic discussion' though? Ridiculous. Core SJWs aren't academically rigorous*, even in the softest of soft sciences sense, and have not the slightest inclination towards actual discussion, they prefer delivering sermons from their pulpit about how others should live their lives and do what they want. Certainly, some in academia do do this; but if so they're utter crap academics.

 

*No, I must be fair, they do do research. All those documents and phone numbers of their opponents don't just appear out of the aether...

Edited October 17, 2014 by Zoraptor

[TrashMan]

 

I can completely understand people standing by GG, I would also stand by a movement that aligned with me ideologically

 

But I can't understand why people would stand by a movement that has been hijacked by some of its members to push a certain agenda and that has tainted the ideological objective

 

And just to be clear can you give me examples where feminist opinions have lead to actual censorship in the gaming industry. I know there is an amount of  criticism of certain games but where has this lead to actual games now changing in  way that has effected you personally. I can't think of any examples, so if you look at a game like GTAV it still exists and is still very popular despite the calls of sexism and misogyny ( and for the record I really enjoy the GTA franchise )

 

 

Except it isn't really tainted.

Biased and inaccurate media campaign might give it a negative connotation, but that's all the more reason to stick by and fight for the truth, to dispel it. To distance oneself is to silently accept their accusation that the entire #gamersgate movement is mysogonist/racists.

 

Running away and creating a new "group" or hashtag is not the answer if all it takes is a few idiots to post something offensive under it. You'll just be constantly switching tags or groups.

 

[Fighter]

LOL

 

[Hiro Protagonist]

The social justice warrior title is a misnomer. They're Self Justified Whiners who've never been about justice in any social sense.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

'Academic discussion' though? Ridiculous.

 

 

I'm pretty sure liberal arts count as academia, however ridiculous any self-respecting scientist finds the idea.

 

Also, if we really want to scrape the barrel for crappy research methodology, evolutionary psychology has to take the cake.

[JadedWolf]

If there's anything positive we've learned from this it's that it seems many of these game journalists seem to have a very negative view of their own readers. It comes across as very cynical when they resort to the same sort of tactics towards GamerGate people that people use against people who play games in general. Calling them shut-in basement dwelling neckbeard nerds. I'm not supporting GamerGate, but as someone who plays games my eyes sure are opened as to what a large part of the gaming press seems to think of us.

 

Respectfully yours, from my basement,

 

Dread pirate Neckbeard.

[Zoraptor]

I'm pretty sure liberal arts count as academia, however ridiculous any self-respecting scientist finds the idea.

 

 

I don't actually mind liberal arts, much as I may occasionally snark them for being woolly, they should just make all liberal arts students take Philosophy and solve the problem. Mind you, a lot of scientists could benefit from that as well.

 

But, the ability to both put a cogent argument and defend it properly from criticism is of, er, critical importance in any form of academia whether it be a science or mathematics or linguistics or history or whatever. While some SJWs can put a cogent argument all right very few at all can deal with the second part even when it's pretty mild.

[Longknife]

 

The news today I'd downright sickening...guardian showing bias, others such as jezebel basically resorting to bullying attempts, and the huffington post guy got doxxed.

Wait, he seriously got doxxed for reporting on it? What the **** is wrong with those people?

 

 

https://twitter.com/RickyCam/status/522741943840014336

[Fighter]

[BruceVC]

The social justice warrior title is a misnomer. They're Self Justified Whiners who've never been about justice in any social sense.

 

Hiro do you think you could possibly make some constructive comments about this topic instead of petulant  blanket insults and opaque statements about "some people"

 

I know its going to be hard, but I have confidence that you can say something  interesting?

Edited October 17, 2014 by BruceVC

[Blarghagh]

You know what my issue is with people who say you can't discuss ethics in journalism as long as harassment is happening? They are giving trolls agency and control over what can and cannot be discussed. I reject that out of hand. This filth wants to be acknowledged and I refuse to do that. I consider any statement of "come back when guys making the same argument as you stop being jerks" to be giving in to them.

 

Boogie is being a wonderful man again, trying to get #EndTheHate trending to get the smart people on both sides to start talking. I don't know what it will do but it makes me happy that people keep trying.

Edited October 17, 2014 by TrueNeutral