Update #86: Polish, Feedback, Bugfixing, and Goodies

[archangel979]

At this point I think the most necessary update is simply "improved visibility in tall grass." Until that's fixed, I find myself loathe to go back to the beta again. Especially considering how backwards the experience system works.

Yea, I was just planning to ask if general visibility of characters is going to be fixed. I been playing Grim Dawn lately and although it uses similar isometric view and combat is real time, I have 0 problems seeing my character and enemy ones.

Edited October 15, 2014 by archangel979

[lightblade75]

Regarding the notepad: As I am collecting cRPGs this paper notepad is a collectors item and for this has to remain unused.

 

There is no benefit for the collector from this.

(I own a lot of so called collector editions and game boxes with all goodies from the past rd. about 30 years ago or so).

 

Please drop the notepad idea and include a 20-sided die instead. This die can be used without being "consumed" or being used up.

 

Why not make a poll out of this? Let the backers decide what to include instead of the dvd. Of course the new itemt has to be cost neutral. 

 

For me I don't like the notepad and would like a die  or a small pcket for dies for pen and paper rpgs or even the blu ray or dvd with the (not complete) making of.

 

What do you think?

Edited October 15, 2014 by lightblade75

[lightblade75]

One word to the combat mode: This is obviously a major issue. As fighting/combat is one of the major activity / task in order to complete the game, this should be solved in a very convincing way. So everybody has got a lot of fun while fighting the monsters.

 

Please do not make the same mistake as inXile did with Wasteland 2 with this very repetitive and sometimes kind of boring combat system.

 

Thanks for considering this.

[Ieo]

 

Been brought up many times in feedback. I prefer a more top down look from the IE games where you can see enemies and your characters better. The IE games had a more RTS angle to see all the characters from each other on the screen. The PoE angle is a lot lower and hides characters behind others and it's even worse with multiple enemies and aoe spell effects. No exaggeration. Your characters can disappear altogether (behind bigger enemies as Sensuki pointed out) and with some aoe effects you have no idea where they are, who they're targeting or if they're in engagement with more than one enemy.

 

 

I skimmed some discussion on that and hope the visual problems can be resolved without too much trouble, but it should be done. Honestly, I must have missed Obsidian's reasoning for using that particular camera angle. None of the IE games had that, right? Or was it TOEE? The suggestions to move the characters further apart hopefully work (increasing the selection circles is a great idea), as I guess the camera angle in the art is now fixed and can't be changed.

 

By the way, I don't know how those floating health bars work in PoE since I can't test at the moment, but in MMOs, they're typically fluid and change position if there's any occlusion, which makes the floaty bars (optional!) automatically move to a spot that still can be clicked.

 

And besides a wad of collector's-paper-that-won't-be-used, another idea is a logo-ed foam sword. Hah, cosplay.

[Sensuki]

I don't think the lower angle can be fixed. I'm surprised issues with combat were not picked up in internal testing before paint overs to be honest, but anyway.

 

One thing that helps in the Infinity Engine games is that units have a very faint dark outline, it's not a highlight, but rather the colors of their avatar have a really dark edge.

 

Here is a blown up picture of an Icewind Dale 2 character

 

 

You see the dark pixels around his boot, armor and helmet - that helps the character noticeably stand out, it's only something I noticed on my recent Icewind Dale playthrough.

Characters in Pillars of Eternity do not have this, and thus they blend into the environment and eachother as a result.

[Hormalakh]

Time for some interpolated rotoscoping!

[GreyFox]

Looks great. I would also suggest changing the colors of the damage numbers to indicate what it is. For example:

 

Yellow for graze.

Red for normal hit.

Blue for critical hit.

 

Maybe also have the word 'miss' appear when an attack misses or a debuff is unsuccesful.

 

I think I am opposite of this...I don't want to see any floating text or numbers...I hope there is a way to turn that off.

 

It's been awhile since I checked up here so maybe that does exist already but if not I REALLY hope they make that optional.

[GreyFox]

 

 

Is anyone else noticing by the weird graphics?

 

I am aware it is a screenshot, but the character models are not precisely defined. For instance it's hard to tell apart the two models on the left. Where does the blue character end and where does the enemy behind him start?

You remember the other day how I was saying that the lower camera angle isn't good for combat? Well that's why. It's even worse when tall creatures (such as Forest Lurkers) are in front of player characters, you can't even see your own units.

 

 

I know mechanics are more important than graphics, especially at this stage, but that screenshot is a bit of an eye opener. I hope work will be done to clean up the display of the player models (and enemy models) so they are distinct and clear in any environment.

 

 

I always thought something looked weird from several of the screenshots I've seen but this close up certainly does look odd.

 

Sensuki is saying that it's from the lower camera angle so that's curious...I wonder why they went with a different angle than the IE games?

 

I also wonder if that is something that could be changed or is it at that angle for reasons we've yet to be privy to.

 

@Sensuki I just read your last post and was wondering why you think it won't be fixable? 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hmm. I don't want to have those floating numbers in PoE either. The combat log will suffice, tyvm. Hopefully, it will be a toggle.

 

Just to reiterate. It would be cool if OE gave us their state of the union speech on the following:

-Are the models getting an overhaul to become distinct and non-semi-transparent?

-Is the problem with the isometric angle acknowledged? What kind of solution to disentangle combatants is in the works?

-Are the ashen faces being dealt with?

Edited October 15, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Quantics]

 

 

You remember the other day how I was saying that the lower camera angle isn't good for combat? Well that's why. It's even worse when tall creatures (such as Forest Lurkers) are in front of player characters, you can't even see your own units.

 

 

I think the issue that I was raising (fuzzy, blurry graphics) is different from the issue of the lower angle.

 

You address the first issue nicely in your previous post with the IWD comparison. 

 

The lower angle obviously impacts visibility, but I don't think it's a showstopper. Then again, I haven't played the beta, so I can't be too sure here (but since it can't change anymore, no need to keep mentioning it forever)

[curryinahurry]

 

 

You remember the other day how I was saying that the lower camera angle isn't good for combat? Well that's why. It's even worse when tall creatures (such as Forest Lurkers) are in front of player characters, you can't even see your own units.

 

 

I think the issue that I was raising (fuzzy, blurry graphics) is different from the issue of the lower angle.

 

You address the first issue nicely in your previous post with the IWD comparison. 

 

The lower angle obviously impacts visibility, but I don't think it's a showstopper. Then again, I haven't played the beta, so I can't be too sure here (but since it can't change anymore, no need to keep mentioning it forever)

 

 

The issue of legibility of characters is largely based on Obsidian using realistic colors and graphics for the characters/ monsters on screen.  Sensuki brought up a good point about the 'dark outlines' on the pixel graphics in the post he made, but that wasn't done for legibility like he thinks, but rather because any time one draws an object in 2d, one shades the edges to make the shape look more 3 dimensional at a glance when zoomed out.  The legibility is an extra benefit, but I guarantee, not the purpose of such art .  

 

The problem then, in a 2d game with 3d assets like PoE, is that the 3d forms are caught in a middle ground at the moment between the 2  styles.  I don't now if this situation is better solved by fixing the lighting or the artwork, but right now, their is a blurring happening because there is not overt intent in creating a solid distinction between the 2.

[Lephys]

"Sorry, no dvd/bluray - have some awesome paper instead" seems a bit of a hoodwink :/

Honestly, it probably cost more to print that notepad than it would to burn a plastic disc. *Shrug*

 

It's not like we're not getting the documentary, and it's not like it's difficult to burn a physical copy of it. You can even Lightscribe Josh's face onto it if you want.

[nadarthechaotic]

 

 

 

You remember the other day how I was saying that the lower camera angle isn't good for combat? Well that's why. It's even worse when tall creatures (such as Forest Lurkers) are in front of player characters, you can't even see your own units.

 

 

I think the issue that I was raising (fuzzy, blurry graphics) is different from the issue of the lower angle.

 

You address the first issue nicely in your previous post with the IWD comparison. 

 

The lower angle obviously impacts visibility, but I don't think it's a showstopper. Then again, I haven't played the beta, so I can't be too sure here (but since it can't change anymore, no need to keep mentioning it forever)

 

 

The issue of legibility of characters is largely based on Obsidian using realistic colors and graphics for the characters/ monsters on screen.  Sensuki brought up a good point about the 'dark outlines' on the pixel graphics in the post he made, but that wasn't done for legibility like he thinks, but rather because any time one draws an object in 2d, one shades the edges to make the shape look more 3 dimensional at a glance when zoomed out.  The legibility is an extra benefit, but I guarantee, not the purpose of such art .  

 

The problem then, in a 2d game with 3d assets like PoE, is that the 3d forms are caught in a middle ground at the moment between the 2  styles.  I don't now if this situation is better solved by fixing the lighting or the artwork, but right now, their is a blurring happening because there is not overt intent in creating a solid distinction between the 2.

 

They could write a shader to enhance edges of the 3d character models?  This can be done (naively) with some function of dot product of mesh normal vs view vector (since everything is 3d I assume). I'd be surprised if unity did not have such a shader available as standard. It would have to be tweaked, but that might do the trick.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

Looks great. I would also suggest changing the colors of the damage numbers to indicate what it is. For example:

 

Yellow for graze.

Red for normal hit.

Blue for critical hit.

 

Maybe also have the word 'miss' appear when an attack misses or a debuff is unsuccesful.

 

I think I am opposite of this...I don't want to see any floating text or numbers...I hope there is a way to turn that off.

 

It's been awhile since I checked up here so maybe that does exist already but if not I REALLY hope they make that optional.

 

I don't see what this has to do with anything I've said. There can still be differently colored numbers and an option to disable showing the numbers. They're already implemented after all.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Silent Winter]

 

"Sorry, no dvd/bluray - have some awesome paper instead" seems a bit of a hoodwink :/

Honestly, it probably cost more to print that notepad than it would to burn a plastic disc. *Shrug*

 

It's not like we're not getting the documentary, and it's not like it's difficult to burn a physical copy of it. You can even Lightscribe Josh's face onto it if you want.

 

At the least, Obs should produce digital artwork for the DVD cover - that way you can print it off and insert it into a case along with your burned DVD.

(Doesn't affect me as I'm not getting it - just thought it would be nice and wouldn't take much time to produce).

[Sensuki]

@Sensuki I just read your last post and was wondering why you think it won't be fixable?

Because they've already done paint overs on I think up to 100 areas already (that may be wrong), and if they were to re-render the levels in isometric, Kaz would need to paint over them again.

 

I'd love if they could do that xD but nope, that's not going to happen.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Maybe they're not using photoshop CC yet, but now it's really easy to manipulate images and completely move objects and you can add too or take away super fast. Techniques that would normally take 30 min to 12 hours can be done in seconds or a few minutes now. Shoot I'll do it for min wage haha cause it's that easy. I wonder if they know about the skew tool? Also, why can't they just change the way the plane lays. In the first video they showed the 2d plane of the image, and I would think they just need to tweak it and tilt it a tad?

Edited October 16, 2014 by Falkon Swiftblade

[Sensuki]

I know that the paint over is probably a separate layer that could probably be moved to a new image, not sure. Have to ask about it really.

 

The other consideration is the navmeshes would have to be redone as well, and probably other things.

 

But IF they can be redone in isometric, pleaaaase do it (IMO), even if it's in a post-release patch.

 

5000.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Sensuki

[samm]

Also, why can't they just change the way the plane lays.

Because they'd have to re-render the whole scene that is stuck to that plane to match the new perspective. The same probably applies for all the maps used for lighting etc.

[PeterB67]

 

"Sorry, no dvd/bluray - have some awesome paper instead" seems a bit of a hoodwink :/

 

At least it's somewhat useful. A DVD you'd watch once then stow away forever, and you get the exact same benefit with the downloadable vid.

 

Somewhat useful? At least you watch the DVD once, in most cases the "collectible" notepad will be stowed away forever in mint condition in your collector's box.

[PeterB67]

 

"Sorry, no dvd/bluray - have some awesome paper instead" seems a bit of a hoodwink :/

Well I checked my calendar and it's not April 1st...so throw that theory out the window.

 

What a great idea you have there !!! We can now get rid of the horrid notepad and make it a 2015 calender with some nice Pillars art on it. It's very useful once and thereafter you can still admire the artwork )

[PeterB67]

Regarding the notepad: As I am collecting cRPGs this paper notepad is a collectors item and for this has to remain unused.

 

There is no benefit for the collector from this.

(I own a lot of so called collector editions and game boxes with all goodies from the past rd. about 30 years ago or so).

 

Please drop the notepad idea and include a 20-sided die instead. This die can be used without being "consumed" or being used up.

 

Why not make a poll out of this? Let the backers decide what to include instead of the dvd. Of course the new itemt has to be cost neutral. 

 

For me I don't like the notepad and would like a die  or a small pcket for dies for pen and paper rpgs or even the blu ray or dvd with the (not complete) making of.

 

What do you think?

 

I agree completely with Lightblade75. A poll for almost 6000 collector box backers (according to kickstarter, late backers unknown - at least 1 - me!) is the least Obsidian can do for us "collectioneurs". A big x-sided dice, some small dice, a coin, a small replica of some special item in the game, an artwork calendar of 2015 or even 2016 to keep us reminding of a game we already might have finished by then, a trinket, a famous in-game magical "gem" in colored glass with a led & small battery in it (oh it glows), mousepad w/artwork, playing cards w/artwork (I really liked the Divinity Original Sin cards) , an Obsidian stone (how appropriate) or some tarot cards or a bag of runes or an ankh (oh yeah, that's all from another and old game universe , a plastic or Lego figurine (seems popular lately) of an in-game hero/villian, a leather pageholder, a beautiful leathery cover for a small spell / bestiary book or the manual ala Ultima 4 (which I still consider one of the best presented game boxes) , a beautiful printed sleeve of the making of DVD/Blu-ray we have to burn ourselves, or for those who wish and with enough participants, we receive the collectors box at a later date but with the full "making of" DVD/Blu-ray (which makes it even more "collectible") . . . but please not this horrid ugly bland notepad !!!

[Lephys]

What a great idea you have there !!! We can now get rid of the horrid notepad and make it a 2015 calender with some nice Pillars art on it. It's very useful once and thereafter you can still admire the artwork )

Better yet, a 2015 calendar with images of scantily clad PoE characters (take your pick of gender)! That's what any game needs.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I didn't opt in for any physical rewards, but I'd like to say that a Pillars of Eternity d20-die would be far cooler than a flabby notepad that will get bent and twisted in the mail, anyways. Long-lasting and durable FTW!

[TheisEjsing]

 

What a great idea you have there !!! We can now get rid of the horrid notepad and make it a 2015 calender with some nice Pillars art on it. It's very useful once and thereafter you can still admire the artwork )

Better yet, a 2015 calendar with images of scantily clad PoE characters (take your pick of gender)! That's what any game needs.

 

Great idea Lephys! Throw big heads on top of that, then we're really talking!