What you did today.

[Malcador]

It's really weird after you have kids, because your empathy levels get jacked up quite a bit.  I cry at all those stupid phone commercials where the parent is missing a piano recital or stuff like that.

You are right, that is pretty damn weird.

[Guard Dog]

Actually it isn't just Mal, there has been a noticeable empathy deficit on this forum for about 10 years now. But it's like living next to an airport. after a while you just don't notice the planes anymore. 

[Gorgon]

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, if I didn't block out empathy for most of the victims of attacks, war, crimes, war crimes or accidents that I read about on TV my anguish would destroy the world.

[JadedWolf]

Yeah, if I didn't block out empathy for most of the victims of attacks, war, crimes, war crimes or accidents that I read about on TV my anguish would destroy the world.

 

And then you'd need to feel guilty about that, too.

[Rosbjerg]

Actually it isn't just Mal, there has been a noticeable empathy deficit on this forum for about 10 years now. But it's like living next to an airport. after a while you just don't notice the planes anymore. 

 

There was a drop in empathy 5 months after it was created? Or did you mean carried over from BIS?

[Blarghagh]

 

Yeah, if I didn't block out empathy for most of the victims of attacks, war, crimes, war crimes or accidents that I read about on TV my anguish would destroy the world.

 

And then you'd need to feel guilty about that, too.

 

 

I also feel guilty that I wrote "read about on TV" instead of "see on TV". This feeling of guilt is directly tied to the occurance of earthquakes.

[Guard Dog]

 

Actually it isn't just Mal, there has been a noticeable empathy deficit on this forum for about 10 years now. But it's like living next to an airport. after a while you just don't notice the planes anymore. 

 

There was a drop in empathy 5 months after it was created? Or did you mean carried over from BIS?

 

It might have been worse over there. We delighted in each others misery IIRC

[BruceVC]

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Actually it isn't just Mal, there has been a noticeable empathy deficit on this forum for about 10 years now. But it's like living next to an airport. after a while you just don't notice the planes anymore.

There was a drop in empathy 5 months after it was created? Or did you mean carried over from BIS?

It might have been worse over there. We delighted in each others misery IIRC

I lived on Misery, then some lady chopped off my foot when I wrote a book she didn't like. Edited October 24, 2014 by KaineParker

[Blarghagh]

 

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

 

 

It's actually perfectly normal because it is hard to be empathic if you do not identify with the victim and identification requires familiarity. I assume you've read a lot of different things about this occurance, seen the perpetrators face, seen the victims face, seen the place where it happened, seen footage of it, heard about who the victim was. You have a lot to identify with. If I learned more about it, I'm sure I would be more empathic. But I've pretty much only read about it in dry facts.

[BruceVC]

 

 

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

 

 

It's actually perfectly normal because it is hard to be empathic if you do not identify with the victim and identification requires familiarity. I assume you've read a lot of different things about this occurance, seen the perpetrators face, seen the victims face, seen the place where it happened, seen footage of it, heard about who the victim was. You have a lot to identify with. If I learned more about it, I'm sure I would be more empathic. But I've pretty much only read about it in dry facts.

 

 

I agree to a certain degree, you do identify more with victims of a tragedy when it becomes visible.

 

But weren't upset when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, most of the victims were Dutch citizens. Didn't this fact make the tragedy even worse for you on  a personal level even if you didn't know anyone on that plane?

[Hurlshort]

I know we all like to pretend we are all apathetic and cool, but this forum is seriously way more sensitive and supportive of their members than most of the people I know in real life.  

[Malcador]

I know we all like to pretend we are all apathetic and cool, but this forum is seriously way more sensitive and supportive of their members than most of the people I know in real life.  

I know, it's sickening.

 

Planning a new PC and a new laptop (the former is just wanting, but the latter is needed as my POS laptop is dying slowly). So that'll be more fun than working.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

 

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

 

 

It's actually perfectly normal because it is hard to be empathic if you do not identify with the victim and identification requires familiarity. I assume you've read a lot of different things about this occurance, seen the perpetrators face, seen the victims face, seen the place where it happened, seen footage of it, heard about who the victim was. You have a lot to identify with. If I learned more about it, I'm sure I would be more empathic. But I've pretty much only read about it in dry facts.

 

 

I agree to a certain degree, you do identify more with victims of a tragedy when it becomes visible.

 

But weren't upset when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, most of the victims were Dutch citizens. Didn't this fact make the tragedy even worse for you on  a personal level even if you didn't know anyone on that plane?

 

 

Not really. I'm not particularly nationalistic, the fact that they were dutch didn't make it any worse or better for me. I was about as invested in it as I would be in any other crash. I was angry that saving some jet plane fuel was apparently worth going through dangerous territory at the great risk of human lives, though. Not the same thing as empathy.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

 

 

It's actually perfectly normal because it is hard to be empathic if you do not identify with the victim and identification requires familiarity. I assume you've read a lot of different things about this occurance, seen the perpetrators face, seen the victims face, seen the place where it happened, seen footage of it, heard about who the victim was. You have a lot to identify with. If I learned more about it, I'm sure I would be more empathic. But I've pretty much only read about it in dry facts.

 

 

I agree to a certain degree, you do identify more with victims of a tragedy when it becomes visible.

 

But weren't upset when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, most of the victims were Dutch citizens. Didn't this fact make the tragedy even worse for you on  a personal level even if you didn't know anyone on that plane?

 

 

Not really. I'm not particularly nationalistic, the fact that they were dutch didn't make it any worse or better for me. I was about as invested in it as I would be in any other crash. I was angry that saving some jet plane fuel was apparently worth going through dangerous territory at the great risk of human lives, though. Not the same thing as empathy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's pretty normal to block out the world's woes and just worry about your own little pond. 

 

Is it? Or is it easier just not to care?

 

It doesn't mean you need to get depressed and lament the state of the world but I would say its abnormal to hear about a real crisis or event around the world where people are suffering and not show any empathy?

 

 

It's actually perfectly normal because it is hard to be empathic if you do not identify with the victim and identification requires familiarity. I assume you've read a lot of different things about this occurance, seen the perpetrators face, seen the victims face, seen the place where it happened, seen footage of it, heard about who the victim was. You have a lot to identify with. If I learned more about it, I'm sure I would be more empathic. But I've pretty much only read about it in dry facts.

 

 

I agree to a certain degree, you do identify more with victims of a tragedy when it becomes visible.

 

But weren't upset when MH17 was shot down over Ukraine, most of the victims were Dutch citizens. Didn't this fact make the tragedy even worse for you on  a personal level even if you didn't know anyone on that plane?

 

 

Not really. I'm not particularly nationalistic, the fact that they were dutch didn't make it any worse or better for me. I was about as invested in it as I would be in any other crash. I was angry that saving some jet plane fuel was apparently worth going through dangerous territory at the great risk of human lives, though. Not the same thing as empathy.

 

 

Okay that's your view and I respect that. I also think that's abnormal, most people are automatically more concerned and empathetic when they find out that citizens of there own country have been killed in some tragedy and the media of that country normally reflect this understandable view and emotion 

[Blarghagh]

Maybe the best way to say "I respect that" is not to continue on with calling someone "abnormal". Can you see how someone might find that disrespectful?

 

Your point is that the media reflects it? Yes, Dutch media reflected the view that somehow, the loss of people who lived in this country was somehow worse or more shocking than than the loss of any other human being. I find that to be demeaning and offensive to the other human beings that lost their lives in that crash. It's unethical.

 

Either way, I'll point you to Hurlshot's post. I don't know where you got the idea that showing "empathy" is normal, but it's not the world I live in. I can recall when I heard about most recent tragedies, no matter who was with me at the time, someone around me responded with a bad joke. I'm confused by what you think is empathy anyway. If I were to become familiar with the victim, or confronted with the victims family, I would likely place myself in their shoes and yes, I would feel empathy. Doing so for people you do not know anything about is not only abnormal, it is impossible. Most of the supposed shows of empathy from people or the media aren't really empathy. It's the show of "I am sorry for your loss and I extend my sympathies". The fact that Dutch media made it about how "we lost our people" is offensive to me, a misappropriation of a terrible thing that demeans the very real loss of people that they actually have emotional connections to that others have gone through.

 

I'm not sure why you would consider a lack of empathic response to subjects with no emotional connection to be a bad thing in the first place. To me it looks like you're trying to shame people for not having an emotional response as if emotional responses are a choice.

[Enoch]

Not showing empathy is perfectly normal.  Maudlin pitches in the media get ratings, but they aren't for everyone.  Stiff upper lip and all that. 

 

 

Not having empathy is basically the clinical definition of psychopathy. 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Enoch

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I know we all like to pretend we are all apathetic and cool, but this forum is seriously way more sensitive and supportive of their members than most of the people I know in real life.

But here(and in all honesty I feel less close to you guys than I do with my brothers at Bleeding Cool) there is some form of closeness. I would not recognise Monte Carlo or Walsingham if I saw them, but I feel I know them pretty well from interactions on this forum. In real life, I don't know most of the people well enough to care deeply.

 

And we could all be faking empathy. I have a sneaking suspicion that the same force these forums emit to draw in lawyers also attracts sociopaths as well.

[BruceVC]

Maybe the best way to say "I respect that" is not to continue on with calling someone "abnormal". Can you see how someone might find that disrespectful?

 

Your point is that the media reflects it? Yes, Dutch media reflected the view that somehow, the loss of people who lived in this country was somehow worse or more shocking than than the loss of any other human being. I find that to be demeaning and offensive to the other human beings that lost their lives in that crash. It's unethical.

 

Either way, I'll point you to Hurlshot's post. I don't know where you got the idea that showing "empathy" is normal, but it's not the world I live in. I can recall when I heard about most recent tragedies, no matter who was with me at the time, someone around me responded with a bad joke. I'm confused by what you think is empathy anyway. If I were to become familiar with the victim, or confronted with the victims family, I would likely place myself in their shoes and yes, I would feel empathy. Doing so for people you do not know anything about is not only abnormal, it is impossible. Most of the supposed shows of empathy from people or the media aren't really empathy. It's the show of "I am sorry for your loss and I extend my sympathies". The fact that Dutch media made it about how "we lost our people" is offensive to me, a misappropriation of a terrible thing that demeans the very real loss of people that they actually have emotional connections to that others have gone through.

 

I'm not sure why you would consider a lack of empathic response to subjects with no emotional connection to be a bad thing in the first place. To me it looks like you're trying to shame people for not having an emotional response as if emotional responses are a choice.

 

Sorry if you feel disrespected, I was just being honest. I respect your view that is what you think but I find it abnormal because that's not how the average person would look at a tragedy that effects the citizens of there own country

 

But you already seem to acknowledge this as  the Dutch media showed this concern towards its dead citizens and you didn't understand why, in fact you were offended by this.

 

I can't really explain to you why most people would automatically show more concern to there own citizens killed in a tragedy, its just the way human beings think. Its probably got to do with a level of patriotism and the fact we generally see citizens of our  own country as part of our greater community on a national level, citizens in a country are like a tribe. We share a common identify and when someone who belongs to that "tribe " is killed this impacts us on certain levels

 

Empathy in this case would just mean you do feel for the families and the loss. Its something that you don't feel good about. And yes to be totally unconcerned if citizens of your own country are killed in a particular event I think is not right. Sorry to say this

[Bartimaeus]

The division between "my own kind" and "not my own kind" is pretty arbitrary. Should I bother dwelling on and feeling empathy for someone horribly murdered who was my next door neighbor? How about someone in my district? City? State? Country? Continent? Some people go all the way, some even beyond. Others don't even do the first.

 

Similarly, some are so concerned with political ideology they don't consider those of the opposite ideology to be their own kind. Same with religion, race, and probably a veritable plethora of other such factors. I think it's abnormal to presume everyone shares the same values of what constitutes as "their own kind". Why should I necessarily feel a natural affinity for all those born in the same country as me - a country that's larger than all of Western Europe with some parts of Asia thrown in? I don't think it'd be bad to, but...for some, national identity is trumped by other factors - or might not be a factor at all.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[Hurlshort]

I've never really understood how the media focuses on the nationality of people when a tragedy happens.  If a plane goes down and kills 200 people, I don't really need to know there were 3 Americans on board to make it tragic.  Also when that plane went down a number of years ago with a bunch of NHL players, I didn't get more upset than I would for any other crash.  Sure, I recognized some names and remember seeing them play hockey, but I didn't know them.  

Edited October 24, 2014 by Hurlshot

[Blarghagh]

 

Maybe the best way to say "I respect that" is not to continue on with calling someone "abnormal". Can you see how someone might find that disrespectful?

 

Your point is that the media reflects it? Yes, Dutch media reflected the view that somehow, the loss of people who lived in this country was somehow worse or more shocking than than the loss of any other human being. I find that to be demeaning and offensive to the other human beings that lost their lives in that crash. It's unethical.

 

Either way, I'll point you to Hurlshot's post. I don't know where you got the idea that showing "empathy" is normal, but it's not the world I live in. I can recall when I heard about most recent tragedies, no matter who was with me at the time, someone around me responded with a bad joke. I'm confused by what you think is empathy anyway. If I were to become familiar with the victim, or confronted with the victims family, I would likely place myself in their shoes and yes, I would feel empathy. Doing so for people you do not know anything about is not only abnormal, it is impossible. Most of the supposed shows of empathy from people or the media aren't really empathy. It's the show of "I am sorry for your loss and I extend my sympathies". The fact that Dutch media made it about how "we lost our people" is offensive to me, a misappropriation of a terrible thing that demeans the very real loss of people that they actually have emotional connections to that others have gone through.

 

I'm not sure why you would consider a lack of empathic response to subjects with no emotional connection to be a bad thing in the first place. To me it looks like you're trying to shame people for not having an emotional response as if emotional responses are a choice.

 

Sorry if you feel disrespected, I was just being honest. I respect your view that is what you think but I find it abnormal because that's not how the average person would look at a tragedy that effects the citizens of there own country

 

But you already seem to acknowledge this as  the Dutch media showed this concern towards its dead citizens and you didn't understand why, in fact you were offended by this.

 

I can't really explain to you why most people would automatically show more concern to there own citizens killed in a tragedy, its just the way human beings think. Its probably got to do with a level of patriotism and the fact we generally see citizens of our  own country as part of our greater community on a national level, citizens in a country are like a tribe. We share a common identify and when someone who belongs to that "tribe " is killed this impacts us on certain levels

 

Empathy in this case would just mean you do feel for the families and the loss. Its something that you don't feel good about. And yes to be totally unconcerned if citizens of your own country are killed in a particular event I think is not right. Sorry to say this

 

 

The frustrating thing about you lately is that I can't tell if you're intentionally insulting people or not but you do it so constantly that it simply cannot be another way. First off, I take offense to the implication that I don't care at all about citizens of my country being killed when all I said is that I don't value citizens of my country any higher or lower than citizens of any other country, because doing so is unethical. I also take offense to your statement that I don't understand why the Dutch media showed "concern". I understand that perfectly well and I vehemently contest your assessment that it is empathy or even anything related to empathy. I also still take offense to the implication that not showing empathy while not having an emotion connection is abnormal as you have yet to prove in any substantial form that these responses are empathic responses or that they are responses that the average person has.

 

Simply put, I don't think you know what empathy is.

 

Here's the facts: The idea that a country is some sort of enormous tribe is a projection. It cannot exist. If an actual tribe becomes significantly larger than that society's average Dunbar's number (usually somewhere between 150 and 200), it splits. It is impossible to have an emotional connection to more people than the human brain allows and therefore impossible to have a real empathy for them. The fact that the "average" media person (again, I contest your claim that the "average" person does the same because in my personal experience this has never and will never be true) tends to make empathic statements anyway proves not that they have empathy but that they either instinctively fake it because of expectations or project the loss upon themselves (probably under the guise of nationalism), which isn't empathy but self-pity.

 

Were I to read about these people right now and understand who they were, their names, their lives, and form an emotional connection, I would have an empathic reaction. I would have something to identify with, and therefore I would have an empathic response. If you have seen a lot of personal information about these victims? Guess what, you're having an empathic reaction because you have an emotional connection, not because you have some magic "caring about every stranger's life". Maybe the response you lament us not having is culturally respectful, or culturally appropriate, but it certainly isn't nor will it ever be empathy.

 

What happens with nationalism is that the brain can't recognize more people than, again, Dunbar's Number. So it takes more people and internalizes them as a single entity. These good people I know aren't individuals, they're my nationality. It's a projection of belonging with a positive group fit only for people who can't form close emotional connections to the actual people around them. Nationalism on a biological level is the same as discrimination. It's the difference between "this one guy of [race, gender or nationality] is an individual who commited a crime" and "this one guy of [race, gender or nationality] is a criminal, people of [race, gender or nationality] must be criminals". As my country is often referred to as a "melting pot", I can tell you for a fact that nationalism has been nothing else but a source of countless problems and discrimination here.

 

"This guy is dead, but it's worse because he's one of ours!" Does that seem like a good response to you? I think it demeans the entire human race and the fact you consider it "normal" is frankly the most scathing condemnation of modern society I can think of.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I refuse to feel sympathy for a Pisces.

Edited October 24, 2014 by KaineParker

[Blarghagh]

You lousy Texan!