How to Fix the Attribute Design in Pillars of Eternity

[Razsius]

 

I suppose what i'm getting at is: is a build of like 3 in every attribute "viable" as well? 

 

It shouldn't be IMO. I don't think the "no bad builds" philosophy need extend to cases where the player voluntarily decides not to distribute character points.

 

(Right now it kind of is because the attributes lack oomph, but I understand that's about to change.)

 

 

My sentiments exactly but if we take the "swing" that Josh was talking about where it's best to double or half everything then a swing of like 30 accuracy (+2 accuracy per point of Per) everything is going to feel absurd.  On a d20 system that's like +6 to hit along with "+6 to crit" and "-6 to graze."  Maybe some of the bases are too high?  Perhaps we get too much accuracy per level up right now I don't know but regardless even small increases have a large swing.  It's why Sen and Matt proposed lowering baseline deflection in line with the change.

 

Btw what's next after this Sen?

[J.E. Sawyer]

I also agree with some of the others that this may require a rebalance of the Cipher class at least with regards to speed. As they get Focus from attacks attacking faster increases the rate of focus gain while the increased action speed also increases the number of abilities they can cast in a set time period. Thus your boosting both the rate of acquisition of abilities along with the rate of use of abilities.

 

I don't think ciphers are well-balanced right now, anyway, so I'm not personally worried about that.

[Sensuki]

Hey, guys.  First of all, thank you for putting this together.  It's great work.  Your research is (obviously) extremely in-depth and well thought-out.  This will sound like BS, but just before lunch, I wrote this chart on my board:

 

 

And while waiting for my food, started reading your paper.  I think we've reached largely similar conclusions, though honestly mine were based more on *~ gut feelin's ~* and less on deep statistics.

Matt was the one who was able to produce the statistics, I was like you and had the 'gut feelings', but algebraic relations are not my strength, so I asked for help.  

 

The main conclusions we reached internally were:

 

1) Interrupt chance should be primarily attack/weapon-based with Accuracy (or rather, attack resolution) being the modifying factor.  This doesn't entirely align with your conclusions, but it essentially decouples Interrupt from an Attribute independent of what's affecting Accuracy.

Could you provide a clearer explanation than that?

 

2) Accuracy makes as much, if not more, sense on Perception as it would on Dexterity.

Agreed.

 

3) Dexterity should modify Action Speed by 2% per point.

Funny how we came to the same conclusion, how did you reach your 2% just out of interest? I imagine likely due to the same reason we did, due to the DT system.

 

4) We should establish 10 as the baseline for any stat, with values below inflicting penalties.  It feels more traditional and it's extremely easy to make the math work either way (i.e., nothing "bad" really happens because of it, gameplay-wise).

I'm okay with either. It was actually you who got me more used to the idea that any point in an attribute should have a benefit, and over time I began to see that there's not really a difference. The only thing to consider is that the negative scores have that negative psychological effect on people, but it probably would be better suited to the D&D audience. I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it, but I don't think it matters to me ... probably just means I'll be less likely to drop anything that much below 10

 

With Resolve, we were still torn on a few issues.  We also considered putting Deflection onto one of the stats, but having a stat be purely defensive didn't feel great.  Keeping Concentration on Resolve seems good/solid/sensible.  We had discussed what I believe was an idea originally from the forums, which was having Might not affect healing output, but having Resolve affect healing received.  I think that could work well, as could simply making Endurance (FAK Stamina) be Resolve-based, with Health being Constitution-based.

 

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts, but again I want to let you know that I appreciate all of the effort you put into researching these problems.

I think a defensive stat would actually be welcome as it then creates, as we stated in our paper - an elegant and symmetrical system where you have two attributes that are offensive, two attributes that are defensive and two that are universally applicable to both offense and defense. That's just my opinion though, but it seems from the looks of it that many people here would also be interested in attribute-influenced Deflection as currently in the game, Accuracy scores of all units are generally ~equal or higher than the Deflection scores of all units, so a Deflection stat would be GREAT for increased survivability. I think that would be a good thing.

 

Thanks for the quick response too

Edited September 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[Infinitron]

having Resolve affect healing received.  I think that could work well, as could simply making Endurance (FAK Stamina) be Resolve-based

 

But wouldn't that result in Resolve not being useful to certain characters/classes/builds for the same reason it isn't right now? They all hinge on the character being frequently hit. Only characters that get hit a lot need more healing, only characters that get hit a lot need more Stamina, and, as before, only characters that get hit a lot need better defense against interrupts. You have two or three weak reasons for the stat instead of one, but they're still weak.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Infinitron

[Sensuki]

Edit: Also looks like you're staggering the Attribute system or something, to not be based on D&D like points - this is probably a good idea as the current point buy system makes Racial and Cultural attribute bonuses pretty trivial.

 

Another idea is you could make Interrupts based on Attack Resolutions and Defenses or something.

 

So like

 

Attack Resolution roll, and then the bonus you have in Interrupt and Concentration are tallied (Attribute, Item, Buff etc) and then if the Interrupt is higher than the total of ([Accuracy+Interrupt] - [Defense+Concentration]) - a hit reaction is played.

 

That may be exactly what you're proposing though.

 

That could also still work in our system too, because then the characters/units that invest the extra points into Perception and Resolve are the ones that will have a pretty clear understanding of the bonus they get from their Interrupt and Concentration. That's the problem with the Interrupt system at the moment, it's very difficult for the player to evaluate.

 

I personally think that Might and Constitution are fine as they are. The healing benefit from Might will effectively reduce your Health because no healing is free.

 

I also think that Stamina and Health together is really easy to understand, not sure if decoupling it would be worth it to be honest because Stamina can be healed. Health cannot. Over the course of the adventuring day Health is simply more valuable all the time (to me anyway).

Edited September 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[limaxophobiacq]

Wow. Good work.

 

Though I have to admit I winced a little when you call it a mathematical proof (it's certainly rigorous as far as arguments over RPG mechanics go but it's not that rigorous).

[PrimeJunta]

Josh's revised system is a clear improvement (and I personally particularly like the idea of tuning Endurance and Health separately, through different attributes), but on balance I still prefer Sensuki/Matt's version.

 

There's nothing wrong with a purely defensive stat IMO (isn't CON one already?) since better defenses are an unambiguous and unmitigated good for any character, much like higher DPS. It would also make matching builds and character concepts more intuitive and easier. "I want to make a defender." Pump the defensive stats, and have others take care of doing damage. "I want to make a damager." Pump the offensive ones, and deal with being more fragile. No problem there that I can see.

[Headbomb]

The main problem I have with this is that from a roleplaying perspective, Dexterity aligns with accuracy and deflection more than speed. Likewise I can't make the link between Resolve and deflection. The only one that seems to make any sense is Perception/Accuracy.

 

I've mentioned before (somewhere that I can't be bothered to ask) that a better way of making stats relevant would be

 

Stat  Effect

MIG   + Dmg + Heal

CON   + Health + Stamina

DEX   + Accuracy + Speed (or +Deflection)

PER   + Crit Chance (or +Deflection) + Interrupt chance

INT   + AoE size ± Durations inflicted (+ beneficial to friendly, - to detrimental to friendly, -beneficial to hostile, + detrimental to hostile)

RES   + Concentration ± Duration received (+ beneficial from friendly, - to detrimental from friendly, + beneficial from hostile, - detrimental from hostile)

 

That, to me, seems more roleplaying friendly.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Headbomb

[Elerond]

 

having Resolve affect healing received.  I think that could work well, as could simply making Endurance (FAK Stamina) be Resolve-based

 

But wouldn't that result in Resolve not being useful to certain characters/classes/builds for the same reason it isn't right now? They all hinge on the character being frequently hit. Only characters that get hit a lot need more healing, only characters that get hit a lot need more Stamina, and, as before, only characters that get hit a lot need better defense against interrupts. You have two or three weak reasons for the stat instead of one, but they're still weak.

 

 

I see that is possibility, although AI that also targets back line characters especially when they are armed with ranged attack and AoE will probably rise need to put points in Resolve even for back line characters especially it they don't wield armor. So I would like to see how new AI works and couple additional encounters that have several ranged enemies in them before drawing any defined conclusions.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Elerond

[Shadenuat]

If Concentration would matter for back row aka archers&casters, then it would still be a useful stat even if it's purely defensive, as long as AI would work well. Spell interrupt was a bitch in IE and would be here.

[Sensuki]

Josh's revised system is a clear improvement (and I personally particularly like the idea of tuning Endurance and Health separately, through different attributes)

Be careful there though. My reservation about this is because Stamina can be healed, it will be pretty trivial on it's own. Sure that might reduce your party's total DPS due to requiring more constant heal actions, but not by much.

 

If Concentration would matter for back row aka archers&casters, then it would still be a useful stat even if it's purely defensive, as long as AI would work well. Spell interrupt was a bitch in IE and would be here.

Not really because all Concentration does on it's own is prevent a bit of DPS reduction. To make it valuable you'd need to do one of two (bad) things - make interrupts occur all the time, which would make bonus Interrupt a bit pointless, or make the duration longer, which in my opinion would feel crappy, and isn't in the spirit of the IE games either. YMMV.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[Matt516]

Real quick - thanks a ton for reading and replying, Josh!

 

Out and about at the moment, but will have thoughts and more detailed responses in a few hours when I'm back at my computer.

[illathid]

Josh's revised system is a clear improvement (and I personally particularly like the idea of tuning Endurance and Health separately, through different attributes), but on balance I still prefer Sensuki/Matt's version.

 

There's nothing wrong with a purely defensive stat IMO (isn't CON one already?) since better defenses are an unambiguous and unmitigated good for any character, much like higher DPS. It would also make matching builds and character concepts more intuitive and easier. "I want to make a defender." Pump the defensive stats, and have others take care of doing damage. "I want to make a damager." Pump the offensive ones, and deal with being more fragile. No problem there that I can see.

I agree, I have no problem with purely defensive stats.

[Infinitron]

 

 

having Resolve affect healing received.  I think that could work well, as could simply making Endurance (FAK Stamina) be Resolve-based

 

But wouldn't that result in Resolve not being useful to certain characters/classes/builds for the same reason it isn't right now? They all hinge on the character being frequently hit. Only characters that get hit a lot need more healing, only characters that get hit a lot need more Stamina, and, as before, only characters that get hit a lot need better defense against interrupts. You have two or three weak reasons for the stat instead of one, but they're still weak.

 

 

I see that is possibility, although AI that also targets back line characters especially when they are armed with ranged attack and AoE will probably rise need to put points in Resolve even for back line characters especially it they don't wield armor. So I would like to see how new AI works and couple additional encounters that have several ranged enemies in them before drawing any defined conclusions.

 

 

Sure, and I realize my argument also applies to Deflection, which is also something that a character who rarely gets attacked theoretically doesn't really need.

 

But, I think Deflection is more useful in that it can it defend you from "opportunistic" attacks.

 

For example, a mage who is relocating to another area on the battlefield doesn't want to get opportunistically smacked by some nearby enemy...but if he does get smacked, it probably won't be often enough that he needs more stamina/better healing, and since he's just moving interruption doesn't matter either.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Infinitron

[PrimeJunta]

That would depend on the numbers. If you have a character who goes down in two hits, it doesn't really matter how many times he gets up again, he's fairly useless in the front line (and if he's in the back, he doesn't have much use for all that health either).

 

It's not a big deal though, and I wouldn't add it to your system; it would only muddy it.

[Shadenuat]

Not really because all Concentration does on it's own is prevent a bit of DPS reduction. To make it valuable you'd need to do one of two (bad) things - make interrupts occur all the time, which would make bonus Interrupt a bit pointless, or make the duration longer, which in my opinion would feel crappy, and isn't in the spirit of the IE games either. YMMV.

In IE interrupted spell wasted your spell slot, which was punishment enough.

 

For archers, no clue.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Shadenuat

[Sensuki]

Btw what's next after this Sen?

Weapon balance. I have a pretty simple idea that theoretically should work, but I need Matt's help to prove it as usual

 

In IE interrupted spell wasted your spell slot, which was punishment enough.

Yeah but that doesn't happen in PE

Edited September 12, 2014 by Sensuki

[Ganrich]

Good stuff Matt and Sensuki. It is a good read, and well thought out.

 

@Josh - Increasing incoming healing via resolve sounds interesting. I still worry it is too defensive.

 

I think the problem with the current Perception and Resolve attributes is they are entirely based on chance. If you hit you have a greater "chance" to interrupt. If you get hit you have a greater "chance" to not be interrupted. Every other stat gives you a definitive increase. Might increase damage/healing. Dex increases accurcy. Intellect increases AOE and Duration. Con increases health. Per and Res increase chances of things happening.

 

I would almost suggest moving duration to resolve, but I don't know what to give intellect in its place. Adding attack speed to dex and moving accuracy and interrupt the Perception sounds great though.

[Matt516]

Accuracy is RNG based as well, Ganrich.

[Ganrich]

Accuracy is RNG based as well, Ganrich.

Yes, but you still do damage with this system. It isn't a True/False scenario like the other 2. With Perception, if you don't hit that number you won't interrupt. The same with being interrupted and Resolve. You cannot sort of interrupt. You do or you don't.

 

Where with Accuracy a "graze" still does damage, but the chance of a graze is decreased with a higher accuracy. RNG I have no issue with, but 2 stats based on True/False is an issue.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

The main problem I have with this is that from a roleplaying perspective, Dexterity aligns with accuracy and deflection more than speed. Likewise I can't make the link between Resolve and deflection. The only one that seems to make any sense is Perception/Accuracy.

 

I've mentioned before (somewhere that I can't be bothered to ask) that a better way of making stats relevant would be

 

Stat  Effect

MIG   + Dmg + Heal

CON   + Health + Stamina

DEX   + Accuracy + Speed (or +Deflection)

PER   + Crit Chance (or +Deflection) + Interrupt chance

INT   + AoE size ± Durations inflicted (+ beneficial to friendly, - to detrimental to friendly, -beneficial to hostile, + detrimental to hostile)

RES   + Concentration ± Duration received (+ beneficial from friendly, - to detrimental from friendly, + beneficial from hostile, - detrimental from hostile)

 

That, to me, seems more roleplaying friendly.

 

I am very fond of this. INT and RES would have to be balanced so that casting spells on oneself would not "double dip". Otherwise, I very much like this suggestion.

[Seari]

^^^ Deflection on perception, that sounds right thematically.

 

Accuracy does make more sense on Dexterity, now that I think about it. While it does also make sense on Perception when you have the graze/hit system in mind. Not sure if I like a crit chance increase, mainly because I'm still hoping for the BG2 style crits.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Seari

[limaxophobiacq]

 

4) We should establish 10 as the baseline for any stat, with values below inflicting penalties.  It feels more traditional and it's extremely easy to make the math work either way (i.e., nothing "bad" really happens because of it, gameplay-wise).

 

 

Would this include changing the base effects (areas, duration, damage) to be what they currently are att straight 10s in all attributes and then modifying that by a plus minus X%, or would everything in the maths stay same as it is now and you'd only change the description?

 

F.ex. if you right now have an effect with a 10 second base duration it'll last for 11.5 seconds at 3 Int, 15 seconds at Int 10, and 20 seconds at Int 20; would either

 

A) this still be the case (only the description is changed)

 

or

 

B) will the standard duration be set to 15 seconds at Int 10 and last (-35%) 9,75 seconds at 3 Int, (+0%) 15 seconds on Int 10, and (+50%) 22.5 seconds at Int 20?

 

Granted that this and other changes might well mean you change the exact % value for 1 point off Int to something other than 5%.

[morhilane]

Interesting though I'd argue that thematically Dexterity for Deflection and Resolve for speed would make more sense, as while Dex works for both, Resolve for deflection seems odd, mechanically it may be better but thematically odd.

 

Dexterity for deflection implies high coordination for dodging or deflecting an attack.

 

In combat the act of deflecting an attack with a weapon or shield rely a lot on endurance and concentration (you less or more absorb the shock without incurring damage). So Resolve makes sense in that context.

[Uomoz]

having Resolve affect healing received.  I think that could work well, as could simply making Endurance (FAK Stamina) be Resolve-based

 

Isn't that... a suggestion I made?? Hype!

Edited September 12, 2014 by Uomoz