Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[Orogun01]

A large problem with this whole thing, as with so many issues, is that the moderate and open minded people tend to get drowned out by the zealots on both sides.  The zealots are not only the ones who yell the loudest, they get further amplified because they are the ones the media focuses on because loud obnoxious people are the ones that sell newspapers garner viewers get clicks.  It's the same reason why extremely uninhibited and/or opinionated people are the ones specifically chosen for reality shows, because these are the types of people that are likely to get into controversial situations that create a buzz.  So you have moderate, open minded people on both sides that not only get ignored by the mainstream, they also immediately get demonized by the zealots on the opposing side as soon as they make a statement, no matter how well thought out, rational, or even offering compromise, that conflicts with their strict ideology as either misogynists or fascists, depending on which side of the fence they happen to be on.  So, according to mainstream media, everyone is either a disgusting misogynist misanthrope that wants to kick all the vaginas out of their boys' club or a power hungry harpy seeking to force feed everyone their own totalitarian ideology.  While both those extremes do, sadly, exist, along with people attaching themselves to either side with no intention other than to gain some spotlight and make a profit off this, there are also tons of people out there being more rational about this and saying "We just want to see more diverse games out there so that there are more gaming experiences out there that cater to things other than just stereotypical male power trip fantasies" and "We're fine with there being games for all audiences, we just don't want the typical male power trip fantasies to become abolished or shamed out of existence because we frankly enjoy that sort of thing from time to time and there's really nothing wrong with that."  Sadly, the voices of the moderates tend to get drowned out.

I don't know how the opposition handles it, but so far the GamerGate side has tried to remain moderate with the occasional descent into hyperbole and hype. There have been no organized attempts to cause harm to the opposition since they see it as giving them ammunition. So far any attack is discouraged even after GamerGate was ran out of 4chan and tempers where high. Mostly they've stuck to their original plan of e-mailing advertisers and have let the de facto spokespersons to handle it, while offering support from behind the scenes. Is kind of impressive how this type of organization came about organically and without a previous structure in place. Might be worth looking into as a study of the user's behavior on the Internet.

[JadedWolf]

The word gamer means someone who plays games. Really, it's not a very difficult word to grasp.

 

Maybe, just maybe... A lot of backlash could have been avoided by simply using a different word?

 

I mean seriously, what if I told you that "Oh, when I say women I don't really mean women, I just mean thoooose women..."

 

I really don't see how you can NOT see the problem.

[HoonDing]

I'm glad my granpa is no gamer, God bless his soul

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs#t=1195

 

What? you're just confirming what I said, either we are misguided and ignorant or aware and misogynistic. She just tried to fit us into her schema, guess which of the two you are if you like sexualised women in games? 

 

 

Could you please quote where she offers that particular dichotomy? Because my reading is that according to her, a/ games where the only meaningful game mechanic is the use of violence are more prone to using iffy tropes as an emergent quality arising from said game mechanics (as opposed to, say, the misogyny of the developers), and b/ while playing these games explicitly won't make anyone sexist, they will subtly influence one's view on gender roles when provided with the exclusion of alternatives. (Actually, this viewpoint is fairly well-supported by research, which I don't get why she didn't point viewers to.)

[kirottu]

Research funded by Jack Thompson?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Research funded by Jack Thompson?

 

...No?

 

Also, that was kinda cheap, but whatever.

Edited September 19, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Orogun01]

 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs#t=1195

 

What? you're just confirming what I said, either we are misguided and ignorant or aware and misogynistic. She just tried to fit us into her schema, guess which of the two you are if you like sexualised women in games? 

 

 

Could you please quote where she offers that particular dichotomy? Because my reading is that according to her, a/ games where the only meaningful game mechanic is the use of violence are more prone to using iffy tropes as an emergent quality arising from said game mechanics (as opposed to, say, the misogyny of the developers), and b/ while playing these games explicitly won't make anyone sexist, they will subtly influence one's view on gender roles when provided with the exclusion of alternatives. (Actually, this viewpoint is fairly well-supported by research, which I don't get why she didn't point viewers to.)

 

I think you may be reading too much into her videos and giving her too much credit. I mean by your own admission her approach is idiotic; IIRC, so why would you expect her to have such a reasonable view? But she almost comes close to the actual issue that is the fact that games have focused around action because of their interactive nature and there is not much room for character development so everyone is a bit one dimensional. But she just disregards everything as negative.

[Malcador]

So we're all subtly brainwashed then, it seems. Weird phrasing too, starts off with "Likewise engaging with these games is not going to magically transform players into raging sexists" but then ends with stating that it conditions attitudes - kinds of contradicts the point before.

 

Hm, wonder why people keep saying she is ok with these things and just wants less of them when she mentions them as being harmful and dangerous and offensive. I guess reducing poisons is better than elimination.

[Amentep]

Inclusive in the sense that people like me, whose political opinions differ from the great majority of video game developers, are still allowed to do the job of video game developers: Making great games, for people to have fun with, and to make other people happy.

That’s all I really want to do, so I hope that by the time I enter the industry, that’s what I’ll be allowed to do.

 

Read more at http://www.nichegamer.net/2014/09/real-gamedevs-sound-off-regarding-the-gamergate-controversy/#rT011Xo6cKUsx75B.99

I admit that this reflects a trend I've found unsettling for several years now, where people who hold unpopular opinions aren't just disagreed with and unpatronized (if that is the wont of the consumer) but instead those who disagree with them organize to actively see the person lose their livlihood/future work.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I think you may be reading too much into her videos and giving her too much credit. I mean by your own admission her approach is idiotic; IIRC, so why would you expect her to have such a reasonable view? 

 

Because these are things she actually says in the video?

 

Weird phrasing too, starts off with "Likewise engaging with these games is not going to magically transform players into raging sexists" but then ends with stating that it conditions attitudes - kinds of contradicts the point before.

 

Hm, wonder why people keep saying she is ok with these things and just wants less of them when she mentions them as being harmful and dangerous and offensive.

 

My chemistry teacher used to say "everything's poisonous in sufficiently large quantities - even fried chicken". I guess the truth is somewhere along those lines.

 

Also, she doesn't want less of them, she wants more of the alternative. Big difference.

[Malcador]

Also, she doesn't want less of them, she wants more of the alternative. Big difference.

Well she can say what she wants and you lot can reiterate it,I'll remain a bit dubious of her when the video's railing on about these tropes. But then again, maybe she will give a positive video on what exactly she would like in detail. Or too much to hope for.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

But then again, maybe she will give a positive video on what exactly she would like in detail. 

 

 

That's not what her Kickstarter pitch was about.

 

Wouldn't it be akin to OE promising us an IE game successor, then delivering something that has nothing to do with it mechanically... oh wait.

[Orogun01]

 

I think you may be reading too much into her videos and giving her too much credit. I mean by your own admission her approach is idiotic; IIRC, so why would you expect her to have such a reasonable view?

 

Because these are things she actually says in the video?

 

She has huge problem with maintaining a consistent message, it seems. At any rate, the tone and major points were very different from the occasional rational gem.

[Malcador]

She will continue to exist and do stuff outside of the series, correct ?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

I think you may be reading too much into her videos and giving her too much credit. I mean by your own admission her approach is idiotic; IIRC, so why would you expect her to have such a reasonable view?

 

Because these are things she actually says in the video?

 

 

She has huge problem with maintaining a consistent message, it seems. At any rate, the tone and major points were very different from the occasional rational gem.

 

 

"Mostly bull****-ish, with the occasional rational gem" is a pretty accurate summary of her work, as I've probably said earlier. Having some experience with liberal arts majors, I've had plenty of opportunity to train myself to automatically tune out bull**** and only pick out the good points, so I guess that shapes how I see her work.

 

She will continue to exist and do stuff outside of the series, correct ?

 

Someday, but right now railing about how she doesn't do something she hasn't set out to do strikes me as... irrational.

[Malcador]

Railing against ? Right. It's something I'm curious about whenever I read litanies of "why this sucks". She has said she was going to provide positive examples in a video late last year or so, if I am remembering correctly. So who knows, maybe she will give a partial answer.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Railing against ? Right. It's something I'm curious about whenever I read litanies of "why this sucks". She has said she was going to provide positive examples in a video late last year or so, if I am remembering correctly. So who knows, maybe she will give a partial answer.

 

Well, she did mention Dear Esther, To the Moon, and some other indie game as examples where the death of female characters "wasn't used in a cheap or sensationalistic manner" or something like that, so...

[Malcador]

Is a start, I guess that will be all from her though.

[Blarghagh]

Dear Esther didn't...? Who in their right mind would say that? The game practically runs on Women In Refrigerators! The core of the game is literally a story of discovery by a man motivated solely by the violent death of his wife!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Dear Esther didn't...? Who in their right mind would say that? The game practically runs on Women In Refrigerators! The core of the game is literally a story of discovery by a man motivated solely by the violent death of his wife!

 

I guess when a lot of the alternatives boil down to "the love of your life has been corrupted so you must execute her in cold blood", even Dear Esther is starting to look good.

[Gromnir]

My main issue is that I want a reliable source of news for the hobby I dedicate a significant amount of my time and money towards. I do not like being insulted or talked down to by the entities that are supposed to be providing me with news or that those entities have conflicts of interest regarding certain products. As it is, I do not feel I can trust their opinions on games and feel that they have an axe to grind with me because I don't agree with parts of their message.

 

As someone whose friends and family include racial minorities, homosexuals, and women, I do care about discrimination and equality. I feel that SJWs are doing more harm than good when they are too preachy about it though, and too often they tend to moralize rather than inform or gather support. I think that Feminists who want equality would find more support if they cut ties with the more insane elements of the ideology, rebranded themselves as "gender equalitists", and put a little more focus on issues faced by men. From my perspective, there needs to be a shift from focusing on specific groups to providing a blanket standard of equality to everyone.

have been avoiding this thread 'cause of the title. game journalism? in all the years we has been playing games, we has never genuine considered the coverage of the industry in print and digital sources to rise to the level of journalism.

 

when we hear people making a fuss over lack o' integrity in gaming journalism, we is reminded o' the movie quiz show. the movie were competent directed and the acting were beyond reproach, but the basic premise were just so darn stupid. back in the 1950s there were this popular tv show wherein the producers were secretly giving answers to specific contestants to fix the results o' the show's competition to be achieving better ratings. this seeming banal little bit o' flimflammery were presented as the defining and/or symbolic moment at which the US public lost its faith in tv, and s'posedly we were to accept notion that losing faith in tv were like being told santa claus weren't real. losing faith in tv took some o' the magic outta our world. whether you realized it or not, we were all diminished by the scandal surrounding events depicted in quiz show. the metaphor. The Metaphor!

 

*groan*

 

we can't bring our self to care about drama related to journalists covering the gaming industry. we never assumed there were such a thing as gaming journalists in the first place. we don't give reviews or stories written by s'posed game journalist more weight than we does to any number o' random posters we know from various game message boards. sure, the reviews and coverage from professional sources tends to be more complete and have better screenshots included than a fan review from amentep or yourself, but while the feedback we get from the professionals has more o' the old razzle-dazzle, it don't have any more gravitas with Gromnir.

 

is impossible for Gromnir to see scandal in gaming journalism for two reasons:

 

1) we don't see journalists covering the gaming industry 

 

2) for there to be scandal there must needs be shock, and we ain't naive enough or concerned enough about the media coverage of games to be shocked by the behaviors o' those involved.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Blarghagh]

 

Dear Esther didn't...? Who in their right mind would say that? The game practically runs on Women In Refrigerators! The core of the game is literally a story of discovery by a man motivated solely by the violent death of his wife!

 

I guess when a lot of the alternatives boil down to "the love of your life has been corrupted so you must execute her in cold blood", even Dear Esther is starting to look good.

 

 

I've never actually seen that scenario in a game.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Dear Esther didn't...? Who in their right mind would say that? The game practically runs on Women In Refrigerators! The core of the game is literally a story of discovery by a man motivated solely by the violent death of his wife!

I guess when a lot of the alternatives boil down to "the love of your life has been corrupted so you must execute her in cold blood", even Dear Esther is starting to look good.

I've never actually seen that scenario in a game.

BG2, although you could resurrect them and it could be a dude.

[Volourn]

Yeah, it surely isn't the most common trope.

[Malcador]

Alternative is usually the Max Payne type scenario, your wife is dead, go kill people.