Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On the cartoon, the crime of rape was not being dismissed, the redefining of something terrible to something minor was being ridiculed.

 

As someone whose friend was raped, I peronsally find stuff like this...

 

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

 

much more offensive than the cartoon in question. Equating violation of the body to consensual sex betweeen men and women is repugnant, not to mention implies that women are too brainwashed or stupid to notice that they are being violated.

 

The gaming press often treats misogyny the same way the nutter in the article treated rape when they attempt to redifine it to fit their agenda. This trvializes actual misogyny by creating parity between someone who doesn't care about boobplate or is cool with damsel in distress tropes and someone who doesn't believe women should have equal rights.

[BruceVC]

 

 

No I don't  consider myself a feminist because I accept that the word has a negative connotation nowadays and its unhelpful if you try to convince people about what feminism stands for. People only seem to focus on the radical feminist perspective which not what the majority of feminists believe

 

So I believe in gender equality and your description "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology " is more what I try to practice and what I believe

 

But aren't "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" and true equality not incompatible, I mean there are perfectly polite things you'd (in the general sense, I don't know you and thus can't judge you) do for women that you wouldn't do for men, which is perfectly normal, but isn't gender equality.

 

I'm not trying to imply you're some crazy MRA or believe all men should be put in concentration camps, I'm merely asking you to reflect on whether true equality is what you're looking for, to me that doesn't appear to be the case (not that there's anything wrong with that, this isn't intended as an attack on you, or your values, please don't take it that way).

 

 

I hear this argument fairly often, basically people can't say you believe in gender equality if you seem to favour one gender over the other.

 

Just to be clear, I don't favour one gender over the other. I believe the genders must be equal in the eyes of society and in the eyes of the law and this must be reasonable. I don't believe for example that you should have  men and womens full contact sports teams playing against each other in areas like rugby or football

 

But the reality is that even though there have been huge advancements in society the genders are not equal. There are still countries and cultures that don't allow women to work or drive and where there are very few women politicians that represent governments. There is still a salary disparity in certain companies where a women is doing the same job as a man but doesn't receive the same remuneration

[BruceVC]

On the cartoon, the crime of rape was not being dismissed, the redefining of something terrible to something minor was being ridiculed.

 

As someone whose friend was raped, I peronsally find stuff like this...

 

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

 

much more offensive than the cartoon in question. Equating violation of the body to consensual sex betweeen men and women is repugnant, not to mention implies that women are too brainwashed or stupid to notice that they are being violated.

 

The gaming press often treats misogyny the same way the nutter in the article treated rape when they attempt to redifine it to fit their agenda. This trvializes actual misogyny by creating parity between someone who doesn't care about boobplate or is cool with damsel in distress tropes and someone who doesn't believe women should have equal rights.

 

Yes I said this before, this link is ridiculous and represents the insanity of the radical feminist perspective. I reject it utterly for a number of reasons. But basically how can consensual sex ever be considered rape ?

[licketysplit]

You guys are really hyper analyzing that cartoon? Which, by the way, I loved. 

[Shallow]

 

I hear this argument fairly often, basically people can't say you believe in gender equality if you seem to favour one gender over the other.

 

Just to be clear, I don't favour one gender over the other. I believe the genders must be equal in the eyes of society and in the eyes of the law and this must be reasonable. I don't believe for example that you should have  men and womens full contact sports teams playing against each other in areas like rugby or football

 

But the reality is that even though there have been huge advancements in society the genders are not equal. There are still countries and cultures that don't allow women to work or drive and where there are very few women politicians that represent governments. There is still a salary disparity in certain companies where a women is doing the same job as a man but doesn't receive the same remuneration

 

Indeed, the genders aren't currently treated completely equally by the law in the west, let alone the rest of the world. I wasn't talking about fysical sport but precisely aiming at common politely behavior, forgive me if I'm wrong in assuming that you do differentiate between the genders there as well, if I'm not wrong: I respect your opinion, I fully agree that the law shouldn't discriminate at all either way, and that individuals should have the right to discriminate (I'm talking polite behavior here), and I agree that people who do the same job for the same company should generally be payed the same amount of money. We pretty much disagree 100% on how this should be achieved, I'm gonna go ahead and assume we're also in disagreement over how much freedom to discriminate should be given to the individual (I'm of the opinion that as long as you don't harass someone you should more or less be able to do what you want, but I'm libertarian), but nonetheless odds are pretty much everyone here who has argued against you here can agree on the core values behind you, despite being extremely opposed to how you'd try and implement those values, which I find sort of amusing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Rape is rape. Attempting to redefine it to fuel your agenda is a despicable thing to do. It is very insulting to rape victims to consider the violation of their bodies equal to the consensual penetration women have with men during heterosexual intercourse.

 

That is what the cartoon was mocking. When SJWs start calling people that disagree with them misogynists, they are doing the same thing that insane PIV is always rape, ok nut is doing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

You guys are really hyper analyzing that cartoon? Which, by the way, I loved.

It's more of trying to explain the joke to someone who doesn't get it.

[Calax]

 

 

 

No I don't  consider myself a feminist because I accept that the word has a negative connotation nowadays and its unhelpful if you try to convince people about what feminism stands for. People only seem to focus on the radical feminist perspective which not what the majority of feminists believe

 

So I believe in gender equality and your description "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" SJW and whiteknight style of ideology " is more what I try to practice and what I believe

 

But aren't "Protect women, be a gentleman, be sensitive, treat women with great respect" and true equality not incompatible, I mean there are perfectly polite things you'd (in the general sense, I don't know you and thus can't judge you) do for women that you wouldn't do for men, which is perfectly normal, but isn't gender equality.

 

I'm not trying to imply you're some crazy MRA or believe all men should be put in concentration camps, I'm merely asking you to reflect on whether true equality is what you're looking for, to me that doesn't appear to be the case (not that there's anything wrong with that, this isn't intended as an attack on you, or your values, please don't take it that way).

 

 

I hear this argument fairly often, basically people can't say you believe in gender equality if you seem to favour one gender over the other.

 

Just to be clear, I don't favour one gender over the other. I believe the genders must be equal in the eyes of society and in the eyes of the law and this must be reasonable. I don't believe for example that you should have  men and womens full contact sports teams playing against each other in areas like rugby or football

 

But the reality is that even though there have been huge advancements in society the genders are not equal. There are still countries and cultures that don't allow women to work or drive and where there are very few women politicians that represent governments. There is still a salary disparity in certain companies where a women is doing the same job as a man but doesn't receive the same remuneration

 

But we're mostly talking about their portrayal within video games. The world is sexist and there are studies done that support both sides of the argument (I've heard it stated that one of the reasons womens salaries look lower on a per year basis is because they take/are given more time off to deal with things like "being a mom" than their spouses). 

 

I mean to drag this all back to that comic and the industry. People like Anita Sar-whatever are throwing out that there's this huge masculine control over the entire media and the level of sexism is on par with the Duke Nukem franchise at all points. And yet as the comic points out, there are female role models within the media that are portrayed much better than the girls of Duke Nukem. And those who are currently "Fight the powah!" about the perceived inequity aren't asking for actual equity, but rather they're asking for a privileged spot within gaming culture where they get to have a role that always impacts the plot (be it as protagonist, antagonist or supporting character) while never having to be in a role where the entire point of that character existing is to die in a mostly hopeless fight against the players. 

 

I mean if you take half the BS that Tropes v Women pops up with, and swap the genders, all of a sudden the problem moves from "women are placed in a position where they can always be the victims" to "Women are being killed en masse and the media is training little boys (who are the only ones who play the games) to shoot and kill every woman they see!"

 

To steal a point from Thunderf00t (who I'm not delighted to steal from because he's got a bit of an ego behind those videos), the entire argument about the potrayal of women in video games and how they're effecting the players has been tried before.... in a broader sense... by Jack Freaking Thompson (You know... the guy who sued take 2 to prevent the "murder simulator" of GTA from being released?)

[Ganrich]

The word was indeed misused, though. Using that word in that manner was the equivalent to firing a rifle that you know has a chance to backfire. And backfire it has. I expect we will see those media outlets fold over the next little while. Not solely because of this incident, but because people like totalbuscuit and other websites like The Escapist are going to absorb most of the following because they are singing a tune that their consumers want to hear. They aren't antagonizing them and calling them names just to win an argument, they aren't bullying people trying to do some good for women in gaming like The Fine Young Capitalists, and they have admitted fault when it comes to some bias in their reporting. These articles will likely be the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

I will say that language is there for a reason. Words have definitions that are universal within a language. The word gamer has been for many years a word that many wore as a badge when the rest of the world stigmatized them. As of the the past 10 years or so... Many more people have become gamers. Gamers are people that play games, and in most cases that is their primary hobby. Now the media says gamers are dead because everyone plays games now, and I say "**** you, media guys and gals!!! Gamers have never been more prominent because nowadays everyone plays games!"

 

Language without definitions for words that everyone adheres to would be worthless. We wouldn't know what we were typing to one another. Language needs to be defined. We need stability or we may as well point, grunt, and make faces.

 

We have words we use to narrow down, describe with greater detail, etc when the noun in question is too vague. They are called adjectives. Writers use them, I use them, you use them, that hillbilly down the road uses them, but we cannot expect our gaming media to use them. "Gamers are Dead!" has a lot more click bait potential than "Venom spewing, moronic, demonic gamers on the internet are no longer important to the industry." If I am pissed about anything to do with the use of the word Gamer it is the lack of coherent language just to make a few extra pennies while simultaneously insulting your consumers (which isn't me. I gave up on most gaming media a long time ago).

 

I would also like to say that as a service provider they should be held to a higher standard than whoever posted a comic on a forum. They should walk a bit on eggshells if they want their consumers to keep consuming. Companies as a whole need to stop antagonizing their consumers. Especially if they expect to stay in business. The gaming media cannot afford to do it, but they seem to be emulating the big AAA publishers in this regard. EA will sell BF Hardline like hotcakes even after BF4s issues, Ubisoft will sell whatever game even if Uplay causes issues on PC, and activision will sell CoD 55 even if Ghost was a testament to mediocrity. However, the gamers that keep kotaku afloat are the ones they are antagonizing. The ones keeping EA and activision afloat are mostly console gamers (Who play Madden and CoD only) that may never look at Kotaku unless it is E3, pax, or GDC is going on. A friend of mine didn't even know Bf4 had a huge issue with their servers because a) as much as I love him... He is an idiot and didn't notice till I pointed it out, and B) he doesn't look at these websites unless E3 is showing videos. Those that read these websites are the more "Hardcore" gamers. They are the backbone of the gaming media's financial well being. They got insulted by the media sites that they support.

 

I am not mad at their use of the word gamer in that context in the end. I am mad that they think they are above reproach, that they cannot have a discussion with those of us willing to have it in a civil manner, and I am mad that they fire people for being honest with their reviews because the editor just got off the phone with some jerk at Eidos because he gave Kane and Lynch: Dead Men a "Fair" score and not higher. I am also mad because of the potential corruption involving the IGF and Fez, but that is a topic for another post.

 

I am not contradicting myself though. As I am not angry for their bad choice of words. I am angry because of their actions prior to and after these articles.

 

In the end, the people that hold the power are the people they are antagonizing. If these gamers have a backbone, and truly blacklist these websites, then we might see some good come of this proverbial **** storm. A paradigm shift is needed.

[Longknife]

 

 

The word "gamer " refers to white males who refuse to recognise inclusivity and changes to the gaming industry. The words "the gamer is dead" applies to people who don't want to be part of the change in the industry.

 

Ready for this? I'm about to blow your mind....

 

 

 

Name one "gamer" that matches that definition.

 

 

That's exactly the issue. You can't. Because no one has any misogynistic issues. The perceived misogynistic issues are being manufactured by pointing at nameless or nobody trolls in random comments, the very same trolls who would purposefully say ANYTHING purely to antagonize and not because they mean it. I sincerely doubt you can name a significant figure within the entirety of the video game industry who is openly misogynistic.

 

DAT BLOW UR MIND??

 

 

Oh wait, you're serious when you think this is a valid argument and not a logical fallacy.

 

 

 

How is it?

 

 

The very claim is that there is an underlying culture of misogyny within the gaming industry. To me, an underlying culture of misogyny would imply the culture is so deeply rooted within gaming that at least ONE guy can be found either on a website like IGN, on a popular gaming-focused Youtube channel or one game developer can be found making blatantly misogynistic comments.

 

  If it's true that misogyny is such an obvious and drastic issue within the gaming culture, then misogynistic comments shouldn't be such a big deal to gamers and thus someone should be able to thrive despite releasing misogynistic statements.

 

 

But this simply isn't the case. You cannot find a single notable figure within gaming who's done so, and as I said, if you were to pull Silverstring media into this forum and ask them who's being misogynistic, they'd likely point at 14 year olds (the very same ones who'll also bully any 9 year old gamers or the like on instinct to try and look tough) with microphones or online anonymous trolls.

 

 

 

I don't see how my request is in any way outrageous. I could claim for example "the Neo Nazi movement is a scary issue within Russian culture" and I could either cite news articles or videos of a Russian skinhead beating up a foreigner or a russian politician openly supporting or passively allowing such actions to verify that this subculture does indeed exist. Here though, the only people being "named" by the feminists are all either exceedingly immature and not respected or listened to by gamers as a collective, OR it's anonymous comments on youtube or other websites where - guess what - people tend to act like **** on the internet for lulz.

 

 

If you're trying to say "you don't need a famous name to matter in the industry," that wasn't my implication. I'm simply saying that unlike my Neo Nazi example above, if I find you 20 vids of skinheads beating up foreigners in Russia, you'd think "hey maybe that is a real issue." Going out of your way to beat up and target a foreigner is a clearly malicious act with a clearly racist agenda. By contrast if you find me 20 youtube comments spouting misogynistic nonsense, I'd probably laugh at you because it's the ****ing internet and making a troll comment is something everyone does off and on and doing one takes 4 seconds.  Those very people who made those comments are JUST as likely to be bored and doing it for fun as they are to be actually sexist, if not MORE likely to be doing it for fun. Likewise the gaming community does not provide those people with respect, yet the gaming community as a collective is being labeled sexist for even having such individuals. It's like if San Francisco as a city were labeled sexist because somewhere within the city there's a crazy homeless guy who gets up on a street corner every day and rants about how women are scum and only hurting humanity, so obviously all of San Francisco is sexist because they ignore him and allow him to keep doing it.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Longknife

[Malcador]

Twitter yields a chuckle worthy gem

 

[Fighter]

^ I have seen this happening a bunch of times.

 

Also all this use of "white heterosexual male" all the time by SJWs as a legitimate argument is spectacular arrogance and hypocrisy. This by the way is how you know an SJW from just a normal social issues advocate. 

[Blarghagh]

Huh. Not convinced of the accuracy of this claim, but if it is it is a serious blow to the credibility of Ms. Sarkeesian.

 

http://billthemanfromkentucky.tumblr.com/post/97189340808/the-girl-who-cried-wolf-and-the-press-that-sold-it-to

[Fighter]

Well he is right about fact checking at least. There is a lot of shoddy reporting going around.

[Longknife]

 the credibility of Ms. Sarkeesian.

 

 

Oxymoron spotted!!!

[pmp10]

Well he is right about fact checking at least. There is a lot of shoddy reporting going around.

There is essentially no reporting at all.

Plenty of opinion pieces and conversations taken out of context.

You can almost believe the charges on the state of journalism.

[Meshugger]

Huh. Not convinced of the accuracy of this claim, but if it is it is a serious blow to the credibility of Ms. Sarkeesian.

 

http://billthemanfromkentucky.tumblr.com/post/97189340808/the-girl-who-cried-wolf-and-the-press-that-sold-it-to

 

Uh, that's quite serious if it turns out to be true.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Huh. Not convinced of the accuracy of this claim, but if it is it is a serious blow to the credibility of Ms. Sarkeesian.

 

http://billthemanfromkentucky.tumblr.com/post/97189340808/the-girl-who-cried-wolf-and-the-press-that-sold-it-to

Uh, that's quite serious if it turns out to be true.

Even if not true, it points out that no one bothered to verify facts before reporting. So either way, the journalistic standards are very low.

[Malcador]

Verifying her police report is victim blaming, so I doubt they'd bother.

[kirottu]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2

 

TFYC got funded! 

[Orogun01]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2

 

TFYC got funded! 

You beat me to posting this.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-fine-young-capitalists--2

 

TFYC got funded!

[Fighter]

What do you want to bet barely anyone will report on this but if TFYC failed everyone would report on it.

[Nonek]

So what's the lowdown gentlemen, are we still subhumans in need of extermination or have we got a new label courtesy of the self appointed moral guardians of the "gaming press?"

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So what's the lowdown gentlemen, are we still subhumans in need of extermination or have we got a new label courtesy of the self appointed moral guardians of the "gaming press?"

Last I heard we were dead subhumans. I'm still trying to figure out if we were resurrected, are undead, or have moved on to an afterlife.