Josh Sawyer visually explains Attack & Recovery

[Matt516]

Given that your accuracy is greater than -5 of the target's deflection, that is. If their deflection is too high, you're just less likely to miss (right?).

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yes, it shifts all results by that margin.  If you're at a significant deficit, you'll be less likely to Miss and more likely to Hit.

[Matt516]

Also, is that Acc bonus present when using a shield, or only without a shield? The single weapon recovery penalty is present either way, correct?

[J.E. Sawyer]

The Accuracy bonus is only there when not using a shield.  If you're using a shield, you get a Deflection bonus from the shield.

[Matt516]

Awesome, thanks! That's what I figured, but wanted to make sure. Since I've been trying to keep a spreadsheet going that lets people see how tweaking different parameters would affect damage, I want to make sure I'm getting the mechanics right.

 

EDIT: Though I do need to update that given this new information.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Matt516

[DannyBarks]

Are those little drawings by Avellone?

[Hormalakh]

what if you have a grimoire in one hand and a wand in the other, does this effect speeds? or can you only hold weapons and shields in either hand?

[Karkarov]

2H weapons confirmed OP.

Yeah they are pretty beastly.

 

What I find curious is he never includes an example of just a "One hand Weapon / Nothing in off hand" set up.  I can only assume this means there is no reason in game you would not use something in both hands and there is no meta game/mechanical reason to use only a single one handed weapon.

 

Woops!  I see on page 3 he addresses this!  Serves me right for not reading that last page.  That said... I hope it is a noticeable accuracy bonus because the damage and deflection loss are noticeable.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Karkarov

[ManifestedISO]

So no Monkey Grip, right. 

[Matt516]

 

2H weapons confirmed OP.

Yeah they are pretty beastly.

 

What I find curious is he never includes an example of just a "One hand Weapon / Nothing in off hand" set up.  I can only assume this means there is no reason in game you would not use something in both hands and there is no meta game/mechanical reason to use only a single one handed weapon.

 

Woops!  I see on page 3 he addresses this!  Serves me right for not reading that last page.  That said... I hope it is a noticeable accuracy bonus because the damage and deflection loss are noticeable.

 

 

I believe the accuracy bonus is +15 - which is reasonably noticeable. See my post here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68044-heres-the-maths-enjoy-dps-spreadsheet-version-2-calculate-dps-based-on-17-different-variables-also-mig-vs-dex-revisited/?p=1496416 for how notiiceable it is, but TL;DR is that it's worth 15 points in DEX and about as many (depending on enemy DEF) in MIG. Roughly (very roughly, since the actual bonus depends on MIG and enemy DEF), that +15 accuracy will net you about 15-25% increased dps. Fairly significant. 

 

EDIT: And actually, this recent edit to the picture (with the extra 1s penalty on recovery time for 2H weapons) means that they probably won't be OP. In fact, they could end up being UP if the enchantment stacking on dual-wield previously mentioned ends up outweighing the increased damage of 2H weapons. But that's all balanceable by tweaking numbers - very doable.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Matt516

[Adventurer]

What is the recovery time if your only using 1 weapon and no shield ? Is it the same as 1h + shield ?

 

In my opinion it should be a little faster than that. Maybe 0.5 seconds.

[Karkarov]

EDIT: And actually, this recent edit to the picture (with the extra 1s penalty on recovery time for 2H weapons) means that they probably won't be OP. In fact, they could end up being UP if the enchantment stacking on dual-wield previously mentioned ends up outweighing the increased damage of 2H weapons. But that's all balanceable by tweaking numbers - very doable.

Perhaps but from what I have seen in game the enchantments on two handers are at default clearly more powerful than one hander enchants.  As long as they scale reasonably Two Handers will be very competitive.  In fact I have nothing wrong with two handers being the best DPS as this is not WoW dps is not everything, as long as there are things the other weapon set ups do better than 2 Handing.

 

What is the recovery time if your only using 1 weapon and no shield ? Is it the same as 1h + shield ?

 

In my opinion it should be a little faster than that. Maybe 0.5 seconds.

Right.  Basically you look at the 1 hand + shield lines and just drop the off third block that is in dark red.  That is the one that represents your speed loss due to having a shield.  So for example a 1 hand weapon in light armor with no off hand item would have a speed of 2.4s.

 

At least that appears to be the implication.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Karkarov

[Shevek]

Its good that they buffed 2 handers. They sucked in the IE games and people only used the holy avenger because of op dispel.

 

Gromnir is right, btw. Twf means you can enchant two weapons. You cant forget the value of that.

 

Edit:

I hope there are talents to further develop the one handed + no shield fighting style. It is often very neglected and yet is so iconic. An accuracy bomus seems like its not enough.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Shevek

[Valorian]

 

 

EDIT: And actually, this recent edit to the picture (with the extra 1s penalty on recovery time for 2H weapons) means that they probably won't be OP. In fact, they could end up being UP if the enchantment stacking on dual-wield previously mentioned ends up outweighing the increased damage of 2H weapons. But that's all balanceable by tweaking numbers - very doable.

 

 

In a flat DT against damage system, like PoE's, high damage per hit is often the difference between dealing almost no damage and dealing a good amount of damage. So even if two-handed weapons end up having the same duration/power for on-hit effects as one-handed weapons, it wouldn't necessarily mean they'd be UP.

[archangel979]

Its good that they buffed 2 handers. They sucked in the IE games and people only used the holy avenger because of op dispel.

 

Gromnir is right, btw. Twf means you can enchant two weapons. You cant forget the value of that.

 

Edit:

I hope there are talents to further develop the one handed + no shield fighting style. It is often very neglected and yet is so iconic. An accuracy bomus seems like its not enough.

What?! 

They did most damage and taking two points in two handed weapon style let you critical hit on 19 and 20 which meant even more damage. Minsc and later Dorn were always my biggest damage dealers as far as fighters go.

Edited September 3, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

3E also had 1.5 STR bonus for 2H weapons as well.

[archangel979]

3E also had 1.5 STR bonus for 2H weapons as well.

True, but only IWD2 was 3e and I am not sure if they implemented this. In 3e power attack with two handed weapon also gave you more damage for same penalty.

[Azrael Ultima]

Gromnir is right, btw. Twf means you can enchant two weapons. You cant forget the value of that.

Various means to counter that. Maybe you can only have active enchants on your on-hand(i.e. off-hand either can't be enchanted, or they simply don't have any effect), or 1h enchants are ~half as powerful as 2h enchants. It's something that needs to be kept in mind, but hardly impossible to deal with.

[Matt516]

What is the recovery time if your only using 1 weapon and no shield ? Is it the same as 1h + shield ?

 

In my opinion it should be a little faster than that. Maybe 0.5 seconds.

 

Right.  Basically you look at the 1 hand + shield lines and just drop the off third block that is in dark red.  That is the one that represents your speed loss due to having a shield.  So for example a 1 hand weapon in light armor with no off hand item would have a speed of 2.4s.

 

At least that appears to be the implication.

 

I think 1H weapons have the penalty regardless of whether or not you're using a shield, actually.

[Sensuki]

They do, yeah.

[Karkarov]

I think 1H weapons have the penalty regardless of whether or not you're using a shield, actually.

That accuracy bonus best be balls hard and have me critting every 3-5 attacks.  I guess I could still see it being viable for a Rogue or maybe a Cipher.... but for Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin?  Not seeing it.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Karkarov

[archangel979]

I don't like that all spells cast time is same and so short. In IE games cast time of spells played a tactical role. I would use fast casting spells to try to interrupt enemy casters. Different casting time of spells also made it so you needed to know how to target them properly if they were AoE. There was system mastery involved in different casting times and made the game better because after a time a player felt he was better at playing it.

[Sensuki]

Well I think a 50% increase to recovery on weapon styles has probably been implemented to slow the combat down.

 

You could get away with

 

1H No Shield: +15 Accuracy

1H Shield: Shield Deflection Bonus/Accuracy Penalty

2H Weapon: Nothing

TWF: -50% Weapon Recovery

 

And it would be the same, just faster.

 

That might be slightly too fast though, but I'll probably include something on this topic in my combat suggestion thread.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sabotin]

How come it's just waiting time added on the end instead of manipulation the animation speed?

 

And what's the deal with twf, it seems it's the same as (1h+nothing) times 2, without the accuracy bonus?

[Sensuki]

How come it's just waiting time added on the end instead of manipulation the animation speed?

Because that's how it worked in the Infinity Engine games. Haste sped up the animation speed I think though.

 

It does manipulate the animation speed after recovery times becomes 0, but we won't ever see that in PE1 I don't think.