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Josh Sawyer visually explains Attack & Recovery

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I just love how ambitious Josh is on stuff like this. Still, I couldn't help thinking, what if all of those cast, attack and recovery rates were instead translated into an attack order for all the characters and critters involved in combat, and then it was locked into some kind of invisi-turn (of the fake kind, like in NWN2, for instance) system that just decides the order of the engagement taking place.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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^ I suppose it's quasi-realistic, seeing as 2H swords were quite fast. It also encourages interesting unarmoured beserker-mit-zweihander builds.

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sonsofgygax.JPG

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Although it's pretty Sawyer-esque to publish important data on twitter rather than on the Backer's Forum :facepalm:

 

I know he has little time for us, but the contempt is palpable.


sonsofgygax.JPG

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Cool!

 

The heroic figures of our new age:

- little stilleto wielding guy in heavy armor and huge shield with 3 might

- 5 naked mages wielding 2hd ultra heavy weapons with 18 might

 

\o/

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Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

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Cool!

 

The heroic figures of our new age:

- little stilleto wielding guy in heavy armor and huge shield with 3 might

- 5 naked mages wielding 2hd ultra heavy weapons with 18 might

 

\o/

Well, if anything, you may have accidentally solved the lack of weight to attributes problem. :)

What if Might 3 only was enough for daggers and stilettos, and that you needed Might 16 for 2H-swords, for instance.

Same thing could work for spells and talents. Then we could disregard their relative light-weight and those sliding scales, and get a bunch of useful thresholds to ponder over when we're making builds.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

No. But the advantage of fighting with two medium sized weapons gives you the ability to mix damage types (slashing, crushing, piercing) while with you're 2 handed weapon you're stuck to whatever damage type the weapon has. And mobs are vulnerable to certain types of damage. Example: The beetles in Dryford Crossing are extremely vulnerable to weapons with crushing damage. You're two hander might still be hitting for decent damage but that BB Priest will rip/stomp/WTF stuff up with his starting mace.

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Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

No. But the advantage of fighting with two medium sized weapons gives you the ability to mix damage types (slashing, crushing, piercing) while with you're 2 handed weapon you're stuck to whatever damage type the weapon has. And mobs are vulnerable to certain types of damage. 

 

 

It is possible to switch weapons during combat in PoE. It takes what, 2 seconds?

 

Base damage is king (especially when you don't lose any attack speed...), vulnerabilities are just a situational bonus.

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Well you do have 4 weapon set quick slot right? I think I saw that somewhere in a video. Means your 2hder dudes can easily switch between any damage type and remain at their ultimate damage potential, on the fly, during combat. 

 

Hmm, thinking about it, doesn't having weapon slots make the entire point of having damage type void? I mean, EVERYONE will have weapons slots filled with weapons of each types, since they are more slots than types?

 

 

As an aside, I just cannot put away the picture of what that would give in D&D...

Little halfling who's weaker than a mouse but super agile, in full plate armor with a huge tower shield, wielding a stiletto. Followed by 5 completely stupid (makes it easier to AE in the melee!) naked half-orcs wizards with pointy hats, all wielding massive 2hd great axes. Someone with artistic skills need to make a picture of that :)

Edited by mutonizer
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No. But the advantage of fighting with two medium sized weapons gives you the ability to mix damage types (slashing, crushing, piercing) while with you're 2 handed weapon you're stuck to whatever damage type the weapon has. And mobs are vulnerable to certain types of damage. Example: The beetles in Dryford Crossing are extremely vulnerable to weapons with crushing damage. You're two hander might still be hitting for decent damage but that BB Priest will rip/stomp/WTF stuff up with his starting mace.

Or you could just switch to a 2H weapon of the right damage type. Pollaxes do best of Slash/Crush and then have an Estoc in the other slot (which is far and away the best melee weapon atm). That seems to be the way to go atm.

Edited by Sensuki

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Hmm, thinking about it, doesn't having weapon slots make the entire point of having damage type void? I mean, EVERYONE will have weapons slots filled with weapons of each types, since they are more slots than types?

 

 

It makes it a superfluous tiny inconvenience, nothing more. Especially if the penalty for switching is 2 pitiful seconds and you have plenty of slots to start with.

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Something to remember before crying "imbalance!" - numbers can be tuned. If the damage ranges for 2H weapons are adjusted properly, they won't necessarily be OP. Even if they do more damage, if the benefits from having a shield or a second weapon (more defense/more enchantments/etc) outweigh the damage increase from 2H weapons in some cases, there could be a place for them both. That said, I did think that was a bit strange - I could've sworn 2H weapons had a slower attack speed than that (thought it was 1s attack, 1.5s recovery base or something like that). I've also heard that fighting with only a single 1H weapon actually gives a +15 accuracy bonus in addition to the slowdown.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is.. this is a great visual infographic, but I highly doubt that 2H weapons doing more damage would be a surprise to OE if it is true. All these values are subject to change. What we need now is the next patch so we can test the combat out and see for ourselves.

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Currently there is two weapon set lots open to use, two are locked and there isn't currently way to open them. But in my understanding the plan is to make it so that fighters and probably other front liners are only ones that get all four set slots open.

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This system is why it can be so hard sometimes to synchronize what characters are doing in beta, everyone does stuff at their own pace, makes me use slow-mo very often to know who recovered from what.

Maybe idle animations could help with that.

 

Also some spells seem to cast faster than others, although it feels like all spells could use a slower cast rate to make them stand out more like in BG.

Perhaps casting time can be slower, with spells more powerful, with spare seconds added to cast recovery without touching balance of speeds, but making spellcasting stand out more.

 

But I'm not sure. Tweaking all this to make game run at smoother pace would require time I guess.

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Some (smart) weapons already come with two damage types and are somehow able to discern which type will hurt which enemy more... :w00t:


Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order


 

Not all those that wander are lost...

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So I guess what I'm saying is.. this is a great visual infographic, but I highly doubt that 2H weapons doing more damage would be a surprise to OE if it is true. All these values are subject to change. What we need now is the next patch so we can test the combat out and see for ourselves.

 

True of course and all in all, verdicts will be at release and everyone hopes it'll be something fun for them, but we can still laugh at the complete silliness of the whole thing as it stands now, that's also part of the fun of alphas/betas. Just so completely reverse my own mental image of an "adventuring party" it becomes comedy. :)

 

 

It makes it a superfluous tiny inconvenience, nothing more. Especially if the penalty for switching is 2 pitiful seconds and you have plenty of slots to start with.

 

I do love me some buttons that need to be pushed because....buttons! :)

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Valorian: Interesting point. As a seasoned wood chopper, I know my way around axes. I chop with various axes, and go both 1H and 2H. I can tell you that if I do a full-force, but still aimed, chop at something and hit, the recovery time is considerably faster 1H than 2H. However, done correctly, a 2H strike is more forceful and often faster, swung sideways, but in a vertical chop, it's pretty even, still talking full-force here. 

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Anyone following this thread use twitter? Maybe someone can retweet it or reply to it (whatever passes for a response in the twitterverse) to ask him if the 2H values are really correct?

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Fighting with two medium weapons yields the same number of attacks as fighting with a two-handed weapon.

Is the damage of larger one-handed weapons comparable to that of two-handed weapons in PoE?

 

am suspecting the damage from 2 attacks with the 2h will be greater than 2 attacks with 2 medium weapons.

 

however, please realize this is a mechanic for a game with magical weapons. each equipable slot allows for additional magical buffing.  a theoretical general accuracy improvement conferred by a weapon could conceivable stack with a 2-weapon load out.  2 weapons that each grant a stat buff. 2 weapons that... etc. regardless o' damages, dual wield has almost always become a better approach at high levels as magic weapons allowed stacking o' benefits. 

 

a mechanic that recognizes the inherent superiority o' 2 equipable slots in a game world with magic equipment sounds like a good idea. gonna need to see if 2h actual gets enough of an advantage to make it worth the obvious penalty o' having one less equipable slot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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