The music! Good or no?

[NegativeEdge]

I'm liking the music a lot so far and even though I've only heard the opening 3 or 4 times it's something I can already bring to mind. The small piece after clicking new game sounds like some of the LOTR music, something from the fellowship , maybe shadow of the past which would fit because it's got an ever so slightly foreboding undertone.

[AdaMusic]

Justin I'd love to hear more ambient added to the areas, even if there is music. In BG the inn music/ambient was perhaps abit over the top but I feel like abit in that direction would suit PoE.

[Longknife]

Just catching up... Thanks for the lively discussion, its great to see so many of you involved.

 

Honestly guys, I don't see much purpose in discussing this.

 

The music is fine, it's just not spectacular. It's music that you only react with "yeah it fits" and not with "Oh man I want this song on my ipod." But as I recall the music was done by some new guy for Obsidian who wants to compose music for games and really wanted to try his hand at doing it for Project Eternity. Besides, we've only heard a limited bit of music he's done; as I recall I  liked the backround music he did for the kickstarter explanation vids. Let him make the soundtrack; it's by no means bad and he can learn from the experience and improve for next time. Main advice I can offer is next time provide more instrumental variance, cause at the moment from what we've seen, every song feels similar in style.

 

Again it's fine though. Reminds me a lot of some of the ambient music for Morrowind.

 

 

Well said.  This is really just a small slice of the game and music.  Personally I find that game music sticks (or not) with me when I play a game a ton.  When I played Skyrim for the first 10 hours, I would have been hard pressed to recall a single melody or phrase.  But after 80 hours, I hear the music and it brings back good memories of the game.   Ears have muscle memory, and it takes bit of time for that to sink in.

 

For what its worth, I've been composing music as a ghost writer for many years.  A couple american TV shows you may or may not heard of, Nikita, Eleventh Hour, Tomorrow People.  And many many other smaller things as well.  This is just the first "bigger" game that I put my name on.

 

 

Just cause we're on the topic and you said the name "Skyrim" and others have already linked songs they like, I can name two from that game I loved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But then again come to think of it those are the only two songs of any fantasy game I've played that really jumped out at me. (not that I've played many. I essentially come from Bethesda's games, mind you) I'd rank Morrowind and Oblivion soundtracks on par with what we've heard from PoE thusfar as none of them feature a song I'm just dying to have on my ipod yet they all suit their purpose; the majority of Skyrim songs are much the same in that regard. PART of it I think is just the setting you link up to it. For example Metallic Monks from the Fallout games was a song I never really paid much attention to and often thought of as "that Freeside song," but after it was used in the Lonesome Road trailer it became something I had to download; the trailer gave it meaning for me. Likewise the theme for the Glow (and Mr. House) is made that much better by the fact that you're gonna hear it while exploring old world relics and trying to figure out what's REALLY going on within the setting. And yeah, both of the songs I linked above were songs I encountered in a (rare) emotional moment within Skyrim. (Also for those of you saying "emotional moments in Skyrim? You're lying!!" I would be, but ironically the German voice actors are better in Skyrim's case)

 

  Also it's too bad those two songs are the only thing they did right with Skyrim OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SICK BURN~~~ /revenge for my two-week forum ban at Bethesda

[Justin Bell]

I'm liking the music a lot so far and even though I've only heard the opening 3 or 4 times it's something I can already bring to mind. The small piece after clicking new game sounds like some of the LOTR music, something from the fellowship , maybe shadow of the past which would fit because it's got an ever so slightly foreboding undertone.

 

Great observations all around, good ear!

 

Justin I'd love to hear more ambient added to the areas, even if there is music. In BG the inn music/ambient was perhaps abit over the top but I feel like abit in that direction would suit PoE.

 

Hi AdaMusic, Thanks for your comment.  We're looking into adding sliders for different parts of the game audio.  No promises since it's just one of many requests, but I agree it is a desirable feature to have.  

 

But then again come to think of it those are the only two songs of any fantasy game I've played that really jumped out at me. (not that I've played many. I essentially come from Bethesda's games, mind you) I'd rank Morrowind and Oblivion soundtracks on par with what we've heard from PoE thusfar as none of them feature a song I'm just dying to have on my ipod yet they all suit their purpose; the majority of Skyrim songs are much the same in that regard. PART of it I think is just the setting you link up to it. For example Metallic Monks from the Fallout games was a song I never really paid much attention to and often thought of as "that Freeside song," but after it was used in the Lonesome Road trailer it became something I had to download; the trailer gave it meaning for me. Likewise the theme for the Glow (and Mr. House) is made that much better by the fact that you're gonna hear it while exploring old world relics and trying to figure out what's REALLY going on within the setting. And yeah, both of the songs I linked above were songs I encountered in a (rare) emotional moment within Skyrim. (Also for those of you saying "emotional moments in Skyrim? You're lying!!" I would be, but ironically the German voice actors are better in Skyrim's case)

 

  Also it's too bad those two songs are the only thing they did right with Skyrim OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SICK BURN~~~ /revenge for my two-week forum ban at Bethesda

 

I agree with your sentiment here.  Whether the music endures or not has everything to do with the context of the game.  In the case of the IE games, that music endures because people remember the game a whole.  It's a total experience that people react to, and that's very deliberate.  I'm not sure if the music for any of the IE games would elicit such fond memories if they were standalone albums and not attached to a game.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm willing to wager some opinions will be swayed one way or another after the game is played in it's entirety.

[Tartantyco]

Master

Music

Voice

Ambient

Effects

 

[Justin Bell]

Master

Music

Voice

Ambient

Effects

 

I'd love to see that.  I'll do what I can, no promises though.

[Starwars]

Are you still composing Justin, or is all that done now? What are you working on at the moment?

 

I really like the title music but it's a shame we can't hear more of it, it'd be great if it extends over the character creation or something in the full game so it can be heard fully.

 

Also, can we expect more different types of tavern music? Cheers!

[Justin Bell]

Are you still composing Justin, or is all that done now? What are you working on at the moment?

 

I really like the title music but it's a shame we can't hear more of it, it'd be great if it extends over the character creation or something in the full game so it can be heard fully.

 

Also, can we expect more different types of tavern music? Cheers!

 

Yes, still in the thick of it, but I've written a sizable chunk.   We're definitely planning on more inn/tavern music.  As for character creation, I've got a special plan for that which relates to the title theme, I think you'll approve!

[Marceror]

 

The classical guitar piece in the Dracogen in is great. And totally different than anything I've heard in the IE games. Simple, but very well played.

 

Playing high quality classical guitar is not easy. Whoever played that is creating a beautiful tone from their instrument, and is a total pro.

 

Thanks Marceror,I'm glad you like it!   That was me playing.  I played classical guitar for many years, and own a concert guitar which I used for the inn music.

Justin, my hat is off to you. I was an active musician for many years, getting very serious about guitar playing during my freshman year of high school, where I started practicing 4+ hours daily (mostly hard rock, lead guitar at the time). I was also very active as a vocalist and composer. Before I all but set it aside -- a decision I still lament in many ways -- switching from a music major to computer science I studied classical guitar for a few years.

 

Of all of the instruments and styles that I was interested in, classical guitar in many respects was the most rewarding... and the most challenging. I could play some fairly technical pieces very well. My fingers went to all of the right places, and I was theoretically playing the pieces exactly as I should. But the thing that I was never fully satisfied with was the tone I created from my guitar.

 

Playing classical guitar, much more so than a lot of other instruments, isn't just about playing technically correctly. It's also about how you touch the strings. Having just the right amount of finger vs. fingernail on your picking hand. In a way, classical guitar playing really becomes an extension of the person, where even the slightest variations in how you approach the instrument can have sweeping changes to the sound that is produced. Forget to file your nails properly, and your tone will be different. Even just figuring out "how" to file your nails is an art form, and can take years to perfect.

 

To put it in DnD terms, I never quite felt that I was sufficiently "elflike" with my classical guitar playing. I felt more like gnome. I had learned what I was supposed to learn, but there was always something "mechanical" about it. Perhaps that's part of the reason I switched to computer science. I was rarely truly satisfied with my work.

 

But your piece that is playing in the Dracogen Inn, in my humble view, it truly elflike. The tone is natural and beautiful. Obsidian is fortunate to have you.

[HoonDing]

Of Baulders Gate games I only recall main themes. IWD1 only Kuldahar theme.

 

sry but Kirill Pokrovsky best video game composer of all time. I recall at least 90% of what he composed.

[Justin Bell]

Justin, my hat is off to you. I was an active musician for many years, getting very serious about guitar playing during my freshman year of high school, where I started practicing 4+ hours daily (mostly hard rock, lead guitar at the time). I was also very active as a vocalist and composer. Before I all but set it aside -- a decision I still lament in many ways -- switching from a music major to computer science I studied classical guitar for a few years.

 

Of all of the instruments and styles that I was interested in, classical guitar in many respects was the most rewarding... and the most challenging. I could play some fairly technical pieces very well. My fingers went to all of the right places, and I was theoretically playing the pieces exactly as I should. But the thing that I was never fully satisfied with was the tone I created from my guitar.

 

Playing classical guitar, much more so than a lot of other instruments, isn't just about playing technically correctly. It's also about how you touch the strings. Having just the right amount of finger vs. fingernail on your picking hand. In a way, classical guitar playing really becomes an extension of the person, where even the slightest variations in how you approach the instrument can have sweeping changes to the sound that is produced. Forget to file your nails properly, and your tone will be different. Even just figuring out "how" to file your nails is an art form, and can take years to perfect.

 

To put it in DnD terms, I never quite felt that I was sufficiently "elflike" with my classical guitar playing. I felt more like gnome. I had learned what I was supposed to learn, but there was always something "mechanical" about it. Perhaps that's part of the reason I switched to computer science. I was rarely truly satisfied with my work.

 

But your piece that is playing in the Dracogen Inn, in my humble view, it truly elflike. The tone is natural and beautiful. Obsidian is fortunate to have you.

 

 

Wow, thanks Marceror for the very kind words.  It took many many years of frustration to get tone that I'm remotely happy with.  A couple of sources really helped me along the way.  Pumping Iron by Scott Tennant, Effortless Classical Guitar by William Kannengiser, and some friends and teachers.

 

The book and video I mentioned above really explain nail shape and angle vs. the string.  A couple other points I discovered along the way.  A good nail buffer and emery board is key.  First the board, then the buffer.  Board for overall shape, and buff to get the "burs" out (as an old teacher of mine used to say).  When you buff, make sure to buff not only the playing surface, but also the top of the nail, and the side edge too.  That part is critical.  Lastly, if you want to make sure you never get a buzz, play as close as you can to the right side of the fret.  You'll almost never buzz there.  

 

Some other misc points, play with your footstool with the slope going down from your body to the floor.  Most people play the other way, and that puts unnecessary strain on your posture at your ankle.  Try it, you'll be amazed at how natural it feels.  Last thing is your plucking hand position.  Obviously you can get different color depending on how close to the bridge or neck you play, but for a consistent straight tone, play right at the right side of the sound hole, and it'll sound good.

 

Woah... Guitar lessons on the PoE forum.  Back to work for me!

[AdaMusic]

 

Just catching up... Thanks for the lively discussion, its great to see so many of you involved.

 

Honestly guys, I don't see much purpose in discussing this.

 

The music is fine, it's just not spectacular. It's music that you only react with "yeah it fits" and not with "Oh man I want this song on my ipod." But as I recall the music was done by some new guy for Obsidian who wants to compose music for games and really wanted to try his hand at doing it for Project Eternity. Besides, we've only heard a limited bit of music he's done; as I recall I  liked the backround music he did for the kickstarter explanation vids. Let him make the soundtrack; it's by no means bad and he can learn from the experience and improve for next time. Main advice I can offer is next time provide more instrumental variance, cause at the moment from what we've seen, every song feels similar in style.

 

Again it's fine though. Reminds me a lot of some of the ambient music for Morrowind.

 

 

Well said.  This is really just a small slice of the game and music.  Personally I find that game music sticks (or not) with me when I play a game a ton.  When I played Skyrim for the first 10 hours, I would have been hard pressed to recall a single melody or phrase.  But after 80 hours, I hear the music and it brings back good memories of the game.   Ears have muscle memory, and it takes bit of time for that to sink in.

 

For what its worth, I've been composing music as a ghost writer for many years.  A couple american TV shows you may or may not heard of, Nikita, Eleventh Hour, Tomorrow People.  And many many other smaller things as well.  This is just the first "bigger" game that I put my name on.

 

 

Just cause we're on the topic and you said the name "Skyrim" and others have already linked songs they like, I can name two from that game I loved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But then again come to think of it those are the only two songs of any fantasy game I've played that really jumped out at me. (not that I've played many. I essentially come from Bethesda's games, mind you) I'd rank Morrowind and Oblivion soundtracks on par with what we've heard from PoE thusfar as none of them feature a song I'm just dying to have on my ipod yet they all suit their purpose; the majority of Skyrim songs are much the same in that regard. PART of it I think is just the setting you link up to it. For example Metallic Monks from the Fallout games was a song I never really paid much attention to and often thought of as "that Freeside song," but after it was used in the Lonesome Road trailer it became something I had to download; the trailer gave it meaning for me. Likewise the theme for the Glow (and Mr. House) is made that much better by the fact that you're gonna hear it while exploring old world relics and trying to figure out what's REALLY going on within the setting. And yeah, both of the songs I linked above were songs I encountered in a (rare) emotional moment within Skyrim. (Also for those of you saying "emotional moments in Skyrim? You're lying!!" I would be, but ironically the German voice actors are better in Skyrim's case)

 

  Also it's too bad those two songs are the only thing they did right with Skyrim OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH SICK BURN~~~ /revenge for my two-week forum ban at Bethesda

 

 

Wow. Jeremy Soule is just such an amazing composer. Those tunes are just out of this world. I honestly think this guy is a modern composing genius.

[Justin Bell]

 

Wow. Jeremy Soule is just such an amazing composer. Those tunes are just out of this world. I honestly think this guy is a modern composing genius.

 

 

I admit I'm biased, but I tend to agree.

[Hormalakh]

I think the main issue I'm having with the music right now Justin, is that because there's so little of it, I'm getting tired of hearing the music. It was fine when I first started playing it, but the tracks really get tiring aafter hearing them in the Dyrford for so long. I'm hoping the tracks change up so often while playing.

 

The battle music is also a little "hardcore" for my tastes. Again, I'm hoping there's a few selections on that too.

[Marceror]

One more comment about the classical guitar playing. I'm hopeful that you'll find time to include another tune like that.

 

Maybe for a slightly larger town/inn, you could have a classical guitar duet. A classical guitar and violin, even if sampled, could be awesome too.

 

As if you don't already have enough on your plate, I'm sure!

[Justin Bell]

I think the main issue I'm having with the music right now Justin, is that because there's so little of it, I'm getting tired of hearing the music. It was fine when I first started playing it, but the tracks really get tiring aafter hearing them in the Dyrford for so long. I'm hoping the tracks change up so often while playing.

 

The battle music is also a little "hardcore" for my tastes. Again, I'm hoping there's a few selections on that too.

 

Hi Hormalakh, thanks for your suggestions.  We're thinking a lot about this issue too.  There are a couple of things we want to do that will address your concerns, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to do that.  A lot of what you're hearing has to do with the constant repeat of the ambient loops, and the highly spammy nature of the combat music which rapidly goes from 0-1000000000000000 in terms of intensity far too often.

 

That said, yes, there will be more combat music.

 

One more comment about the classical guitar playing. I'm hopeful that you'll find time to include another tune like that.

 

Maybe for a slightly larger town/inn, you could have a classical guitar duet. A classical guitar and violin, even if sampled, could be awesome too.

 

As if you don't already have enough on your plate, I'm sure!

 

I'd like to do this as well.  I'm hopeful I can.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Justin, it would so cool if you could hear in some relatively more modern tavern in a bigger city, you playing an instrument that sounds like a clavichord.

 

By the 17th century, the mechanisms of keyboard instruments were well known, according to Wikpiedia, at least, hehe. The strings are struck by tangents.

[Qiushui]

I have to say the music for the Dracogen inn is my favorite in the beta so far. It's just perfect for the feel of the place. Great work.

[theacefes]

 

As I mentioned in another thread, the music melodies are fantastic and actually quite memorable. I can see myself in 10 years hearing the PoE theme and getting that nostalgic feeling.

 

That being said, my only constructive feedback was that I felt the quality sounded very, very synthesized and the main theme (on the start screen) had some awkward pauses that make me wonder how much of the song was a product of the composer's own skill and how much of it was just copy paste VST note rolls.

 

Walk-away questions I have are: was this a resource/budget limitation? Could a good stretch goal have been to get the in-house composer better equipment? 

 

Hi theacefes, thanks for your question.  None of the music you hear used pre-recorded VSTi phrases, it's all through composed.  The pauses you hear are for dramatic effect, and function as a breath between phrases.

 

Regarding the equipment, it's not really the equipment in question.  It's very time consuming to get sampled instruments to sound real, so it really came down to prioritizing my time.  That said, I think there may be some surprises yet that may make you a happy person.

 

 

Thanks for answering my questions, Justin!   And yeah, looking forward to whatever's in store.

[Quantics]

I love it that Justin is here discussing IG music with us. That alone makes me glad I bought the game.

 

Looking forward to hear more music from the game !

[sb5]

Still hoping for some tribal influences

[Yonjuro]

Still hoping for some tribal influences

 

 I don't know if you've heard of Albannach - they're ..  well, they're a Scottish Drum and Pipe band but they, well, I'll just leave this here:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0mypcwk2M4

Edited August 26, 2014 by Yonjuro

[ctn2003]

A new theme song that gets you going know what i mean? Like the Icewind dale theme where it had Adrenalin to it. Got you pumped up, this song feels way to soft. But the music i the game overall sounds great, I love the tavern music.   

[siril_dana]

I like it very much, specially the combat music.

Edited August 26, 2014 by siril_dana

[war:head]

Personally I find that game music sticks (or not) with me when I play a game a ton.  When I played Skyrim for the first 10 hours, I would have been hard pressed to recall a single melody or phrase.  But after 80 hours, I hear the music and it brings back good memories of the game.   Ears have muscle memory, and it takes bit of time for that to sink in.

 

Tend to agree, though. If 66% of the people don't like or don't care about your music, you're doing something wrong.

 

Hi war:head.  I've been doing this a very long time, and the truth is that many many gamers play games with the game audio muted, and play their own music over things.  Either that, or they are so focused on the actual game that they don't ever notice the audio.  It doesn't matter if the audio is good or bad, they just do it because that's their preference or audio isn't on their radar.  So when I say 33 percent don't care, what I really mean is, that the audio just isn't a priority for a good chunk of gamers out there.

 

I respectfully disagree  - exceptional music doesn't need to sink in to be memorable and even people who don't care a lot about it will notice.

A good RPG (well, to some degree) example is probably the Mass Effect series. Some of the pieces from the games are exceptional to the point where you need to hear them once and it's in your head.

Most prominent example would be the Uncharted Worlds theme. Whoever played ME even for just a couple of hours will recognize it in an instant (not necessarily knowing the actual name of course). Others are the Samara theme from ME2, the ME theme itself, Citadel and Presidium theme, Leaving Earth which even people who rarely played ME3 recognize when it's playing in a completely unrelated TV production, A Future for the Krogan...need I go on?

 

Where PoE has background music, Mass Effect has a soundtrack. 

This is what I'm missing from PoE at the moment. Some defining pieces of music, songs I will forever associate with my PoE experience, something that stands out.

Even something as simple as the menu music. Dragon Age as a series doesn't really have particularly memorable music, even with hundreds of hours logged. But you immediately recognize a DA game when you start it because of the amazing menu/loading song. 

 

And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the music's bad but I do feel it's missing the certain something.