Giubba Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 I love D&D but I want Pillars of Eternity to be unique. If the game was designed with this system and values in mind than there is no reason to change it. No copycat please. I paid for d20 based game just like Torment,BG and IWD as was advertised in the kickstart not for this mess.
Hormalakh Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) I've made this suggestion before and I've had it shot down before as "too time consuming" but I really think that each class should have its attributes defined differently. The major decision you make in chargen is what class you want to be: and the attributes are an added "flair." I think that a lot of the problems with the attribute system come from the idea that each class (with different game mechanics) should be defined by one set of attributes that effect them equally. This just isn't the case: what is important for one class isn't so important for another. If you want an attribute system that has viable points for every category you need to match your categories to your mechanics. Ciphers attribute needs are different than monk attribute needs. Wizards and fighters and rangers all have different needs. With a 6 point attribute system that affects different classes differently, you can really diverge the classes further. All your classes then don't need AoE spells or durations (to make int viable) or interrupting as an important mechanic (to make perception/resolve important). I really think this suggestion should be further evaluated and considered. It will really free up the rest of the tweaking process as well as allow classes not to hold back when making them stand out from one another. What attributes are doing are trying to fit different shapes into all the same holes. It feels wrong to the players and I'm sure it's made designing the classes tough too. I think it would reduce the feeling that "everything is so samey and bland" and allow each person to define their character for their class. 11 classes is a lot. It makes balancing difficult, but that's the gorilla that Obsidian agreed to work with and then wanted to balance them. Time is the one thing that is needed to make a good system and if they're willing to invest the time in diverging their attribute system, then I think it will be worthwhile.I don't think every class needs totally new attributes: some can be reusable but this one size fits all mentality doesn't work. Edited August 22, 2014 by Hormalakh My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions. http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/ UPDATED 9/26/2014 My DXdiag: http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html
Longknife Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Radical Idea: Kill anything unique about the game and make a game we've already played before. 1 "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Giubba Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Radical Idea: Kill anything unique about the game and make a game we've already played before. Exactly what we paid for. 2
Silent Winter Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Ciphers attribute needs are different than monk attribute needs. Wizards and fighters and rangers all have different needs. With a 6 point attribute system that affects different classes differently, you can really diverge the classes further. All your classes then don't need AoE spells or durations (to make int viable) or interrupting as an important mechanic (to make perception/resolve important) But then we're either just renaming things or moving them around without much of a mechanical difference. Might = power for fighter, Int = power for mage ?, Psyche = power for Cipher - would make it more intuitive but so does reading the manual. Or am I misunderstanding you? Plus: In the present system, you can have different builds of Cipher. If I understand you correctly (entirely possible I've got the wrong end of a different stick), you're suggesting that Ciphers need to be built a certain way. So we're back to D&D. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form*
Wintersong Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Radical Idea: Kill anything unique about the game and make a game we've already played before. Exactly what we paid for. In which alternate universe?
Giubba Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Radical Idea: Kill anything unique about the game and make a game we've already played before. Exactly what we paid for. In which alternate universe? In the one where their punt on the kickstarter page Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity Instead i've paid for Sawyer private RPG who loooks like doesn't share nothing with those games. Edited August 22, 2014 by Giubba
Ondb Posted August 22, 2014 Author Posted August 22, 2014 1/ Almost everybody know the term Might and Magic and what their represent. (almost everybody thinks Might=Strength in RPGs) 2/ Almost every RPG for last decades is using primary STR for melee, DEX for ranged and INT,WIS for spells. Do you really think its good idea to try to change the perceptions of those attributes and how they are affecting classes?
Ahvz Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) 1/ Almost everybody know the term Might and Magic and what their represent. (almost everybody thinks Might=Strength in RPGs) 2/ Almost every RPG for last decades is using primary STR for melee, DEX for ranged and INT,WIS for spells. Do you really think its good idea to try to change the perceptions of those attributes and how they are affecting classes? Obsidian seems to have more faith in human intelligence than you. Edited August 22, 2014 by Ahvz 1
Helm Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity Instead i've paid for Sawyer private RPG who loooks like doesn't share nothing with those games. Wasn't it obvious during the kickstarter that we would be getting the spiritual successor to Darklands? Darklands is Sawyer's favorite game. Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration. PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate - Josh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan "I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO "Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.
PrimeJunta Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) I paid for d20 based game just like Torment,BG and IWD as was advertised in the kickstart not for this mess. It would help to actually read the pitch before you throw north of a hundred bucks at a Kickstarter. Just sayin'. Edited August 22, 2014 by PrimeJunta 2 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Giubba Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. STFU please. 1
PrimeJunta Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Did you only read the first paragraph? "...a new RPG system, entirely new art, new characters and animation and whole lot of lore and dialogue." (Source) (Also, none of the games they listed are d20 system.) I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Ahvz Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. I may fail at reading comprehension, but I always read that as 'the combat will be fun and intense, like Icewind Dale's combat' instead of 'the combat will be exactly like the IE games.' Unless you also read "take the central hero, memorable companions [...] of Baldur's Gate" to mean we're revisiting the Spawn of Bhaal.
Bli1942 Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) 1/ Almost everybody know the term Might and Magic and what their represent. (almost everybody thinks Might=Strength in RPGs) 2/ Almost every RPG for last decades is using primary STR for melee, DEX for ranged and INT,WIS for spells. Do you really think its good idea to try to change the perceptions of those attributes and how they are affecting classes? Like you've pointed out the naming is the only real problem. I love that they have made a system where you don't just chuck all your points into 1 or 2 attributes for certain characters, but the names are basically making it seem like it IS a system where you should stack points in 1 ability It's funny how they made a point of how they changed Strength to Might when that's only the tiniest bit better. That one and Intellect need changing the most. The others they can probably get away with Edited August 22, 2014 by Bli1942
Giubba Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Did you only read the first paragraph? "...a new RPG system, entirely new art, new characters and animation and whole lot of lore and dialogue." (Source) (Also, none of the games they listed are d20 system.) HAHAHA pathetic Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. I may fail at reading comprehension, but I always read that as 'the combat will be fun and intense, like Icewind Dale's combat' instead of 'the combat will be exactly like the IE games.' Unless you also read "take the central hero, memorable companions [...] of Baldur's Gate" to mean we're revisiting the Spawn of Bhaal. Well looks like you are right from a certain point of view. They collected 4 milions dollars promising specific characteristic from beloved games franchise when they mean "Well no in fact we wiil make a game with nothing in common with those games but we need money so yes we put those title as lure, kthxbye".
Longknife Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Did you only read the first paragraph? "...a new RPG system, entirely new art, new characters and animation and whole lot of lore and dialogue." (Source) (Also, none of the games they listed are d20 system.) HAHAHA pathetic Anyone else got this sweet mental image of Giubba pelting his computer screen with his 20-sided dice while playing Planescape: Torment? 2 "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
WTHHeroSin Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 1/ Almost everybody know the term Might and Magic and what their represent. (almost everybody thinks Might=Strength in RPGs) 2/ Almost every RPG for last decades is using primary STR for melee, DEX for ranged and INT,WIS for spells. Do you really think its good idea to try to change the perceptions of those attributes and how they are affecting classes? I'm really not sure how I feel about this argument. It sounds like it's arguing that because people expect things to stay the same, they should stay the same? I don't really think that justifies keeping a system the same way. There is something to be said for keeping things familiar to a certain degree; I just don't know that it should be the only reason to keep the system more dnd-esque. That being said... I don't care for having resolve/perception dealing exclusively with stun-locking (outside of conversation). I think if attribute balance is the goal this system is not handling that well as is. It needs to be tweaked for sure. Personally I wouldn't see it as a failure if we did go a little more traditional on some aspects of the game. Might could be tracked to melee damage specifically. We could have Dexterity could be tracked to ranged weapons (even though I've never really thought that made too much sense as it takes a lot of strength--not that Might = Strength in PoE--to wield a bow, than again Firearms is more about accuracy than raw strength isn't it?) I actually like Resolve tracked to spell damage and spell healing. I don't know how I feel about the fact that Resolve would become the spell-casting attribute though. Thematically it could fit because Resolve is about exerting will, correct? Perception should give us some crit damage chance. Could might be more tied to weapon balance in some ways? If we make it closer to something in concept like strength could we have like "longbow-requires 14 Might" or something like that? I'm not really good with the maths, but I think these kind of tweaks would be good for the system. Also... The idea of DnD being way more intuitive for stating isn't always the case. For instance, sorcerers in newer editions (including 3.5 I believe) tracked spellcasting ability to charisma. Wizards tracked arcane spellcasting to Intelligence. Clerics traced their divine magic to wisdom, as did druids. Paladins track their divine spellcasting to Charisma. If you know how those classes work in DnD lore it makes sense, sure, but to someone unfamilar with the system it might seem a bit weird. I think that because many people consider BG2 and other IE games masterpieces they also think those games are an example of perfection; I just don't agree with this kind of thinking. In no other medium does masterpiece status entitle a work of art to be looked at as perfection. Yes, BG2 is one of the greats, it doesn't mean that everything else has to be a carbon copy of it to be a good isometric roleplaying game. Games should strive to be their own games, and capturing the feel of an IE game while making innovation the design team believes need to be made does not make obsidian terrible designers, or outlandishly evil liars.
Ahvz Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Well looks like you are right from a certain point of view. They collected 4 milions dollars promising specific characteristic from beloved games franchise when they mean "Well no in fact we wiil make a game with nothing in common with those games but we need money so yes we put those title as lure, kthxbye". Nothing in common? Are we playing the same game? This is the closest game to the IE games that's come out in more than a decade. Seriously, the way some of you Baldur's Gate 3 types talk I don't even think you've seen the beta and you just assume we're all playing Call of Duty, here. 1
Tartantyco Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Just ignore him, guys. He's either a troll, or so pathetic that he can't admit it when he's blatantly wrong. Just ignore all his posts and leave him to fester in his impotent rage. 2 "You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt." Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity IXI Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity IXI Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity [slap Aloth]
WTHHeroSin Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Can we talk about the mechanics of this game without losing sight of reason? Do we have to drift into hyperbole and absolutist argument about the attribute system of this video game? The solution to the attribute system doesn't have to be "nothing like the IE/DnD system" or "exactly like the IE/DnD".
Kharador Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Oh god, another "Let's make a replica of Baldur's Gate thread". Seriously guys turn the page...
Longknife Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Just ignore him, guys. He's either a troll, or so pathetic that he can't admit it when he's blatantly wrong. Just ignore all his posts and leave him to fester in his impotent rage. Or maybe he's got.... Old World Blues. C WUT I DID THAR? "The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him." Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?
Wintersong Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Radical Idea: Kill anything unique about the game and make a game we've already played before. Exactly what we paid for. In which alternate universe? In the one where their punt on the kickstarter page Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity Instead i've paid for Sawyer private RPG who loooks like doesn't share nothing with those games. And again I have to ask: In which alternate universe? I mean no offense but I think that you just extrapolated information that fits your liking from what you read. "intense combat" and "Combat uses a tactical real-time with pause system - positioning your party and coordinating attacks and abilities is one of the keys to success". That is main Kickstarter page and all the combat stuff mentioned in it. Extrapolating that homage to IE games automatically meant D&D-like system may be considered an understandable mistake, but mistake nonetheless. Not being a D&D-like game (or d20 if you just prefer to stick to OGL) has been known for ages too. I like d20 but it was never promised. So I ask again: In which alternate universe?
Mayama Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 Not being a D&D-like game (or d20 if you just prefer to stick to OGL) has been known for ages too. I like d20 but it was never promised. So I ask again: In which alternate universe? They actually said they do not have a D&D license and do not want to make a d20 based system in the very beginning.
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